Homosexual Marriage

[Jack]

If all that doesn't convince you that "ex-gay" therapies are failures, you might want to read this:

Statement of Apology from Former Exodus Leaders Darlene Bogle, Michael Bussee, and Jeremy Marks As former leaders of ex-gay ministries, we apologize to those individuals and families who believed our message that there is something inherently wrong with being gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender. Some who heard our message were compelled to try to change an integral part of themselves, bringing harm to themselves and their families. Although we acted in good faith, we have since witnessed the isolation, shame, fear, and loss of faith that this message creates. We apologize for our part in the message of broken truth we spoke on behalf of Exodus and other organizations...

Exodus Leader Apology - Beyond Ex-Gay

[Maryjane]

You choose to be homosexual as you choose to be mentally unstable

What an absurd statement.
Besides...who would choose to be mentally unstable? The only people I can think of would be the ones trying to avoid the death penalty.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Darebirth I would like to issue a challenge to all who are opposed to gay marriage, and even if you are for the idea and just want to challenge me, to provide me with one good, logical, well-constructed reason why homosexuals should not be allowed to be married. I'll be waiting.

Its evil

[gela]

How can something as victimless as homosexuality be evil?

You are funny

[Jack]

That was a great line in "Time Bandits" but in a debate it leaves much to be desired, like a "good, logical, well-constructed reason why homosexuals should not be allowed to be married."

[Matt W]

Quote by: Anmon Its evil

That was neither good, logical, or well-constructed. Do try again.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Matt W That was neither good, logical, or well-constructed. Do try again.

Its evil because its offensive, and you know it.

[ShadowFox]

How is it offensive? So does that mean if something is simply different than you it's offensive?

[Anmon]

Quote by: Halofan48 How is it offensive? So does that mean if something is simply different than you it's offensive?

No because its only being pushed because it offends religious people, and helps to ruin western values. I doubt most gays even thought about getting married until it was bought as a pressing matter needing to be addressed by socialists, who only want to destabilise western society anyway they can find.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: Anmon No because its only being pushed because it offends religious people, and helps to ruin western values. I doubt most gays even thought about getting married until it was bought as a pressing matter needing to be addressed by socialists, who only want to destabilise western society anyway they can find.

Therefore completing their plan for world domination.

And more impotently, does this sound like something Tom Buchanan from the Great Gatsby would say (English class reference)?

First off, is there an online list of western values? I can never seem to find out exactly what they are and which ones are most importent (always changing).

However I know about American values, which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Being able to love who ever you want falls in the last two categories.

As for where the idea of gay marriage started, I think it started when a gay couple passed a wedding on the street and asked "We should get one of those."

Finally, you are not pinning this on the socialists. I live in a socialist country and can tell you socialists are not wild about them either. Plus if I were a socialist and I wanted to take over the world, my plan would not revolve around getting marriage for gay people. It just isn't diabolical enough.

[Anmon]

Winterwind-

First off, is there an online list of western values? I can never seem to find out exactly what they are and which ones are most importent (always changing).

Well there must be, otherwise we wouldn't be arguing.

However I know about American values, which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Being able to love who ever you want falls in the last two categories.

Love who you want, as long as its not hurting them or against the law, as in cruelty, underage or abusing animals.
But this isn't the point I'm arguing here, which is gay marriage and other western social fabric destroying items on the socialists agenda.

As for where the idea of gay marriage started, I think it started when a gay couple passed a wedding on the street and asked "We should get one of those."

More like at a NOW meeting.

Finally, you are not pinning this on the socialists. I live in a socialist country and can tell you socialists are not wild about them either.

I'm aware of that, but like I said socialism will use anything to destroy western society.

Plus if I were a socialist and I wanted to take over the world, my plan would not revolve around getting marriage for gay people. It just isn't diabolical enough.

Its not just just limited to that, gay rights are just one part of it, feminism, unions, left wing philosophy being pushed ahead of all other philosophy's in our places of learning, political correctness dictating to everyone what they can say and even think, and stigma on anyone who disagrees, the focus on white western males being bad, stupid, the unrelenting attack on males as good traditional role models, responsible for all social ills, the family courts etc theres a lot more to Socialisms attack on the west than just gay rights.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: Anmon More like at a NOW meeting.

Prove it.

I'm aware of that, but like I said socialism will use anything to destroy western society.

(true) Socialism barely exists any more. I think there are more gay people in the world then communists.

Its not just just limited to that, gay rights are just one part of it, feminism, unions, left wing philosophy being pushed ahead of all other philosophy's in our places of learning, political correctness dictating to everyone what they can say and even think, and stigma on anyone who disagrees, the focus on white western males being bad, stupid, the unrelenting attack on males as good traditional role models, responsible for all social ills, the family courts etc theres a lot more to Socialisms attack on the west than just gay rights.

Socialism is singly about the proletariat's rule of the government. Why would they care about what you named? It's not part of their agenda.

"It doesn't matter if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice" I could honestly care less if it's socialism, people have the right to love any adult. It's morally right, who gives a crap who pushes it, one. Two, socialists aren't the main ones promoting gay rights. Its not even the Democratic party. It's the homosexuals themselves. They are promoting their own rights, it's not like the socialists are dragging these people to protests.

[Anmon]

[=Winter wind;496178]Prove it.

Prove it was two gays walking past a church.

(true) Socialism barely exists any more. I think there are more gay people in the world then communists.

lol what do you think political correctness is dude.

Socialism is singly about the proletariat's rule of the government. Why would they care about what you named? It's not part of their agenda.

Socialism is about controlling what people say and think.

"It doesn't matter if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice" I could honestly care less if it's socialism, people have the right to love any adult.

I'm not denying that, I'm against gay marriage church or civil, and adoption etc
I don't care if gays love each other, provided their not being offensive, thats their business.

It's morally right, who gives a crap who pushes it, one. Two, socialists aren't the main ones promoting gay rights. Its not even the Democratic party. It's the homosexuals themselves. They are promoting their own rights, it's not like the socialists are dragging these people to protests.

Its the socialists who got the ball rolling, they did it first with civil rights, then womens rights, now its gay rights.
Tomorrow it will be pedophile rights.
Anything to get western society weakened.

[Jack]

Socialism is about controlling what people say and think.

You've just described every political institution devised by man. Socialism has a specific definition;
# a political theory advocating state ownership of industry
# an economic system based on state ownership of capital
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

How does gay marriage advance the goals of socialism?

[Winter wind]

Quote by: Anmon Prove it was two gays walking past a church.

The argument of every advocate for gay rights say that gay people should get the same opportunities as hetero people. If you want me to quote them, I will, but it will be a colossal waste of time as you should know I'm right.

None (that I know of) say the socialists put the idea in their head.

Your turn.

Socialism is about controlling what people say and think.

What? No. That's what it usually becomes, which is absolutely different.

Socialism is a collective control of industry, land, etc.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism

You mean fascism.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fascism

lol what do you think political correctness is dude.

It isn't the proletariats rising up.

Controlling the thought process? It's an interesting argument. But then all politeness, by comparison, would be the same. Saying please and thank you for instance.

provided their not being offensive, thats their business.

define offensive

Its the socialists who got the ball rolling, they did it first with civil rights, then womens rights, now its gay rights.

*screech of tires*

civil rights? So eliminating "seperate but equal" was a fascist movement? Please, it's anything but.

If "Western values" say people should be judged not by merit, but rather by skin color, gender, or sexual orientation, then it was and is time for a change.

Tomorrow it will be pedophile rights.

two can play the slippery slope game.

What if the government establishes that only heterosexual people can marry?
What's to stop them from ending interracial marriage?
What if they say the lovers don't get a say on who they marry, but the state or the parents do?

[Matt W]

Quote by: Anmon Its evil because its offensive, and you know it.

So...you're against 'PC-ness' because it doesn't allow people to say terms that were offensive, and yet you state this? A mass of contradictions, I see.

And I'm not offended in the slightest by homosexuality. Seems like you might be a tad oversensitive?

[Derek Wolff]

What an absurd statement. Besides...who would choose to be mentally unstable? The only people I can think of would be the ones trying to avoid the death penalty.

Exactly my point. The initial reaction is not choice, it’s the manner they have lived through life. When they get older they have the decision to change.

Facts About Changing Sexual Orientation

The accusations in this article are false. Reparative therapy does not teach repression. Reparative therapy teaches recognition of their feelings, and acceptance. They then attempt to find the root cause of their homosexuality which is frequently rejection from their father, or male peers. Frequently this rejection merely has to be perceived and not real. NARTH discounts orthodox religious opinions, and it does not force others to become hetero. Its very defining statement for its institution is “NARTH upholds the rights of individuals with unwanted homosexual attraction to receive effective psychological care, and the right of a professional to offer that care”. Get it? Those who do not want the attraction.

The Paradox Of Self-Acceptance

And you base this on what? I can tell you that homosexuality is not a choice, and I base that on my own personal experience as a gay.

I base my own experience as a homosexual on my opinion.

Any "recovered" homosexual men you think you know about probably only have "recovered" feelings because people want them to be "recovered" and want them to think that they are.

I am attracted to women.

Perhaps when you know some thing about the way humans develop sexually you will understand better.

Homosexuality 101: What Every Therapist, Parent, And Homosexual Should Know


If you want I will confess my path to homosexuality and recovery.

If all that doesn't convince you that "ex-gay" therapies are failures, you might want to read this:

A religious ministry is not capable of turning people hetero. Repression has the opposite effect intended. Struggle with emotions is destructive.

I recommend further research if you do not wish to take one source. Dr. Freud's theories are a good start.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Anmon Its evil

What makes it evil? How should gays be treated if it is evil?

[Jack]

Those who do not want the attraction.

Precisely. Anyone with an unwanted personality trait will seek deliverance. No one says it never works, but that it only works for the small percentage that are predisposed to changing. And the change is not one of orientation but rather behavior. It won't change anyone's basic orientation. And where's the refutation of the damage such programs have caused for those who undergo them?

[Maryjane]

Derek Wolff,
If you'd like to discuss mental illness, homosexuality, and repartive therapy further, please start another thread on the subject. It's off topic in this discussion about homosexual marriage. Thx.