Homosexual Marriage

[Anmon]

Quote by: Matt W And you'd rather be an outright facist, who discriminates on colour, religion and sexual preference? Seems to me you're the one in the wrong place....

Heres pc typically throwing in all the other minority's straight in, whenever they perceive one as being discriminated against in any way, I never mentioned colour or religon.
Is it any wonder no one takes you guys seriously?

[Jack]

By the end of this century your beliefs will be viewed with a mixture of ridicule, sympathy and disgust by a world that has long forgotten socialism, by a world who chose to have traditional family's with their values, that will simply by its greater numbers replace your fast dwindling ones.

Here's one of the weak points of religious thinking. Religion wants to move into the future by dragging along the past. If anything will fade from its importance in the future, it will be 2000 year old platitudes. "Tradition" is the politically correct term for "stuck in the past".

[Anmon]

Quote by: italiangm I suggest you pick up a history book. Historically-speaking, marriage began as a business arrangement. Brides were commodities. Dowry was a deal sweetener. Grooms were pawns in an economic alliance between families. Government, church, divorce -- and oftentimes romance -- were not involved. Procreation, child rearing, and contract enforcement assured the orderly transfer of wealth through the predictable and repeatable cycle of arranged matrimony. Children were property, necessary for labor, and used to assure continuity of family power and aggregation of assets. Evntually the theists came along and wanted a piece of that action. They imposed their arbitrary and artificial moral authority on all things, including marriage, to acquire wealth and power for themselves. What we call marriage today is a far cry from yesteryear. The definition has been fluid enough to fit whatever set of circumstances it needed to fit and has changed many times.

And where in your history book does it show gay marriages being arranged and approved of in society's throughout history for power, wealth, assets etc.
Marriage whether you can face it or not, is still recognised world wide essentially as basically a union between a man and a woman, like it has been for all time, what ever the reasons for it happening.
The only people who disagree with this are seen rightfully as freaks.

[Jack]

The only people who disagree are seen as freaks.

By you, perhaps. I'm not sure what value you get from posting to a debate forum where you must know you're going to encounter opposing opinions. Why hang out with freaks if you don't have to?

[Winter wind]

Quote by: Anmon Marriage whether you can face it or not, is still recognised world wide essentially as basically a union between a man and a woman, like it has been for all time, what ever the reasons for it happening. The only people who disagree with this are seen rightfully as freaks.

No, this definition isn't enough. Because watch what I can do.

Pretend we are in the early 1600s. And Galileo just published his paper on the earth revolving around the sun.

This is the church's argument:
The sun whether you can face it or not, is still recognized world wide as revolving around the earth, like it has been for all time, what ever the reasons for it happening.
The only people who disagree with this are seen rightfully as freaks.

It's not enough to say that everyone else agrees with you.

Quote by: Anmon Heres pc typically throwing in all the other minority's straight in, whenever they perceive one as being discriminated against in any way, I never mentioned colour or religon. Is it any wonder no one takes you guys seriously?

Take it easy.

No, I agree Matt W stepped over the line there, but he brings up a point that has to be addressed. Are you judging homosexual not for logical reasons but because they are different then what is usual?

Quote by: Matt W And you'd rather be an outright facist, who discriminates on colour, religion and sexual preference? Seems to me you're the one in the wrong place...

You know I have great respect for you Matt, but that was out of bounds.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Isherwood Here's one of the weak points of religious thinking. Religion wants to move into the future by dragging along the past. If anything will fade from its importance in the future, it will be 2000 year old platitudes. "Tradition" is the politically correct term for "stuck in the past".

The religious beliefs will win even if their wrong (in your view) regardless, you can move into the future just as easily with traditional concepts that promote more stable family's as you can with your new age thinking, that has a short termed future anyway and promotes inevitably its own demise, because it promotes homosexuality at all levels of society, feminism that encourages family breakdown, and smaller family's that do not even replace on average the previous generation.
So how can that be a society moving forward, if it does everything it can to ensure its own ending?
Also how does just being traditionally valued have anything to do with society not becoming more advanced technologically?

[Anmon]

Quote by: Isherwood By you, perhaps. I'm not sure what value you get from posting to a debate forum where you must know you're going to encounter opposing opinions. Why hang out with freaks if you don't have to?

see below

[Anmon]

Quote by: Isherwood By you, perhaps. I'm not sure what value you get from posting to a debate forum where you must know you're going to encounter opposing opinions. Why hang out with freaks if you don't have to?

Are you seriously saying everyone on this forum must agree with your opinions? Is this a forum only for people who agree with left wing ideology?
Why even debate if everyone agrees with you?
It must come as a surprise to you, that not everyone is over the moon with the pc agenda in the west at the moment, I am amongst alot of others the resistance to this newspeak/thought way of life being pushed onto us without thought that not everyone is going to like it, even minority's are sometimes not that comfortable with it, the only ones who like it are basically power trippers.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: anmon Thats not the world mate, perhaps you should take your views to Asia the middle east and Africa, or South America, your views on what the world is would be mocked, laughed at and go down quicker than a lead balloon.

I live in Hong Kong and have lived in Beijing and all over the states. The more educated people tend to share halo's point of view. It's the less educated that tend to have the intolerant point of view. But that's just a personal observation, and it may just be the people I hang out with.

Also, i think everyone here needs to look at my signature and take a deep breath. Cause this is losing it's fun-ness.

[Anmon]

[=Winter wind;495251]No, this definition isn't enough. Because watch what I can do. Pretend we are in the early 1600s. And Galileo just published his paper on the earth revolving around the sun. This is the church's argument: The sun whether you can face it or not, is still recognized world wide as revolving around the earth, like it has been for all time, what ever the reasons for it happening. The only people who disagree with this are seen rightfully as freaks. It's not enough to say that everyone else agrees with you.

Except for the simple reason your analogy falls flat on its face, as the Church was indeed wrong about the sun, but the point I made about men and women being traditionally viewed as the ideal partnership for marriage was commonplace amongst all the worlds society's, this was not an institution set up primarily by the Church in the 1600's as you seem to be saying, this has just been the natural partnership accepted by society's everywhere for thousands of years, and not to even think of questioning it.

Also I didn't say everyone agrees with me, but a lot of people do, and hopefully more will wake up soon so we can get rid of the pc fascists who tell everyone what they can say and think now.

No, I agree Matt W stepped over the line there, but he brings up a point that has to be addressed. Are you judging homosexual not for logical reasons but because they are different then what is usual?

I'm disagreeing with ridiculous pc that pushes ideas as acceptable just because they haven't been tried or accepted before, maybe theres a good logical reason as to why not.
And despite Matt's insinuations I am none of what he said, I don't hate gays or anyone different, what I hate is simply political correctness.
Funnily enough Matt and his type are not that far different from people in the 16th C who would scream heretic! etc at people who didn't go with the Church, except his is the Church of the New World Order, and instead of Heretic, he screams racist! or sexist! or any other 'ist made available for newspeak.

[Jack]

you can move into the future just as easily with traditional concepts that promote more stable family's as you can with your new age thinking,

Yet we haven't even preserved "traditional" values in the present. Marriages in the 21st century only vaguely resemble the Ozzie and Harriet ideal (a false one even then) from the 50s. "Traditional" marriages are already extinct.

Are you seriously saying everyone on this forum must agree with your opinions? Is this a forum only for people who agree with left wing ideology?

No, I'm saying that everyone who debates here ought to expect to have their opinions challenged. To call those who don't agree with you "freaks" is irrational. If those who don't agree with you are freaks, I can only wonder why someone would choose to hang out with them (unless, like me, you happen to appreciate freaks).

[Anmon]

Quote by: Winter wind I live in Hong Kong and have lived in Beijing and all over the states. The more educated people tend to share halo's point of view. It's the less educated that tend to have the intolerant point of view. But that's just a personal observation, and it may just be the people I hang out with. Also, i think everyone here needs to look at my signature and take a deep breath. Cause this is losing it's fun-ness.

Usually the case when someone is brave enough to object to all the pc garbage being preached everywhere now, all the lovely open minded accepting people suddenly turn into frothing at the mouths demons of hate.
Its the 'less educated' as you say who have to deal with the 'more educateds' out of touch decisions that usually make it into laws and ways of thinking, like 'multi- culti, what a beauty that was, everyone of all races live together, and they shall live in harmony.. yep.

[Anmon]

[Isherwood;495263]Yet we haven't even preserved "traditional" values in the present. Marriages in the 21st century only vaguely resemble the Ozzie and Harriet ideal (a false one even then) from the 50s. "Traditional" marriages are already extinct.

No there not, there aren't as many, and a lot of people are starting to return to this, because they can see the mistakes made since the sixty's, how can busted up marriages and family's everywhere be the way of the future?
Its a stupid dead end thats all it is, the guys who believe in this, will just all die lonely and unnoticed.

No, I'm saying that everyone who debates here ought to expect to have their opinions challenged. To call those who don't agree with you "freaks" is irrational. If those who don't agree with you are freaks, I can only wonder why someone would choose to hang out with them (unless, like me, you happen to appreciate freaks).

Well I am challenging your opinions, so you shouldn't have such a problem with that, after all you said so yourself that anyone who debates here can have their opinions challenged. I am challenging your and others because I think their doing nothing but harm to western society, and I think as an intelligent person that your quite aware of this also.
And I didn't call anyone on here a freak because that would be getting personal, which go against forum rules, I said anyone who believed these opinions must be freaks, but I did not single anyone out as being of that opinion.
And if you appreciate freaks as you say, well then that puts me in the clear I guess.

[Jack]

No there not, there aren't as many, and a lot of people are starting to return to this, because they can see the mistakes made since the sixty's, how can busted up marriages and family's everywhere be the way of the future?

Like I said, tradition means being enslaved to the past. Society is evolving, moving into the future. We have new issues to deal with, new problems to solve, none of which we knew about 50 years ago. The past isn't going to offer solutions, we need to find solutions that exploit the means we have now to solve those issues. We've seen the results of trying to cope with the 20th century using tools from the 1st century. It didn't work.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Isherwood Like I said, tradition means being enslaved to the past. Society is evolving, moving into the future. We have new issues to deal with, new problems to solve, none of which we knew about 50 years ago. The past isn't going to offer solutions, we need to find solutions that exploit the means we have now to solve those issues. We've seen the results of trying to cope with the 20th century using tools from the 1st century. It didn't work.

Yes new problems created by all those idiots in the sixty's who messed up society.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: Anmon this has just been the natural partnership accepted by society's everywhere for thousands of years, and not to even think of questioning it.

Well, so was the sun revolving around the earth. Most cultures at that time believed that. Just because it was believed as such for thousands of years doesn't mean it's right.

Comes down to the second grade moral lesson: If everyone else does it, it doesn't make it right.

Also I didn't say everyone agrees with me, but a lot of people do, and hopefully more will wake up soon so we can get rid of the pc fascists who tell everyone what they can say and think now.

I see where your coming from on this pc fascist thing, but disagree.

My logic for homosexuality being ok is because I don't see the harmful factor, ergo no reason to stop it. Also because the argument being made against homosexuality are eerily similar to the ones that were made against inter-racial marriage. Since I'm half Chinese half American, I really can't be against that now can I!

And despite Matt's insinuations I am none of what he said, I don't hate gays or anyone different, what I hate is simply political correctness. Funnily enough Matt and his type are not that far different from people in the 16th C who would scream heretic! etc at people who didn't go with the Church, except his is the Church of the New World Order, and instead of Heretic, he screams racist! or sexist! or any other 'ist made available for newspeak.

Ok now you've stepped across the line. Matt W is a mod, not the Spanish inquisition.

Usually the case when someone is brave enough to object to all the pc garbage being preached everywhere now, all the lovely open minded accepting people suddenly turn into frothing at the mouths demons of hate. Its the 'less educated' as you say who have to deal with the 'more educateds' out of touch decisions that usually make it into laws and ways of thinking, like 'multi- culti, what a beauty that was, everyone of all races live together, and they shall live in harmony.. yep.

oy! I'm one of the multi-cultis. I don't think I'm all that different or rabid. (just annoying sometimes)

It's not that I or we are shutting out your argument. It's more that we just disagree. I have a logical reason to disagree.

All I meant by more educated, was the more worldly and the better traveled. I didn't mean school education (you should hear me rant about the education system).

[Tycoon]

I don't really care if it makes you sick tbh, I'll raise any children I may have to my ideals, and the bibles, not fascist political correctness which is misleading and evil.

Not following your narrow-minded discrimination makes our ideals fascist political correctness?

Thats not the world mate, perhaps you should take your views to Asia the middle east and Africa, or South America, your views on what the world is would be mocked, laughed at and go down quicker than a lead balloon.

Maybe you should take your ideas to Europe, they won't so quickly agree with you.

Also don't expect your 'enlightened' open minded world to last for long, you are a dying impractical breed, because of your very ideals.

Actually no, there has been a growing tolerance of homosexuality. You are the breed that should and is dying out.

Sorry but a society that lives by small family's, as in not having enough kids to replace themselves, and promoting homosexuality doesn't last very long, could be a good reason why this hasn't happened in the past.

You're right, because people were so much more civilized in the past. *sarcasm*

[Winter wind]

Tycoon is back. This is just like the good old days.

[Tycoon]

Tycoon is back. This is just like the good old days.

Hahaha, I'd like to give Anmon a bigger piece of my mind but I have to go to church soon.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Is accepting Homsexual Marriage a fast track to Polygamy, Incest, and all that stuff, or is it an issue by itself?

I think it's a single issue that is separate from those other concerns that many traditionalists are worried about.

Also, as a say religious person would also have to assess the gravity of the sin, and not look at it as the whole picture. We are rarely composed of one sin.