Homosexual Marriage

[pikatore]

Homsexuality about brings about a conscious a lifestyle choice even if it's driven by genetic or other derived homosexual urges. That's what I meant. That's why some gays stay in the closet, not simply because they gay, but because they are afriad to openly adopt a homosexual lifestyle, because that's when other people can start to notice..

[GraceAustin]

[quote=texasdave;403268]GraceAustin,
You have touched upon the principle of progressive harm. It starts with an analogy.>>>>>

Your analogy is specious. We are speaking of nature here, and the FACT that we are NOT all the same, in every way. You demand that we all be the same, seeing difference as 'bad', and nature doesn't appear to 'agree' with you. Ancient people found the occasional difference as 'special' while you find it something to be removed. The problem doesn't lie in the open minded reasoning of 'progressives.' It lies in the close minded lack of reasoning of extreme conservatism. You'd have been a better fit back in the times when Galileo was persecuted for daring to say the world was round. Had the oppressive, dogmatic, paternalistic ways of 'christianity' had its way, progress would be just a dream. Rather than looking for 'bad', which is the mindset of extreme conservatism, try looking to reason. Like it or not, nature did give you a mind to use, not parrot.

[italiangm]

Quote by: texasdave If everyone in the world only had sex with people of the same sex then reproduction would stop and the human race would be extinct in approx. 100 years, catastrophic results.

Homosexual expression has existed for as long as humankind has existed. There is at least one historical timeframe I can recall offhand where homosexual expression was a non-issue in the general life and times of that society.

While you're wrapping your mind around the above, please point us toward a single studiy that even suggests a decrease in heterosexual expression has occurred in response to the presence of homosexual expression.

Quote by: texasdave If there were NO homosexuality then the incidences of deaths from that lifestyle would be nil. The more homosexuality there is the more progressive damage to society. Therefore, homosexuality is immoral.

Answer the questions I posed above and I'll review the data you provide.

Until then, your entire argument is illogical, based primarily on your fear-based religious beliefs/dogma which have zero basis in fact.

Moreover, it has nothing to do with same sex marriage, which is the topic.

[banko]

I find that there are so many hetero's out there that are damaging society it is hard for me to understand why people fight so passionatly about gay marriage. When you clear up child abuse, all the children out there needing adoption, incest, child slavery, teen pregnancy, dead-beat parents, ect. Then you can tackle the gay topic. I see more harm to society in some hetero family that raises 4 kids, beats them, has sex with them, parents are alcoholics/drug addicts, ect than I ever could in a gay couple getting married.

When all heterosexuals are perfect then you can discuss gay marriage.

"As a result of these investigations, approximately 896,000 children were found to have been victims of abuse or neglect—an average of more than 2,450 children per day.

More than half (60 percent) of victims experienced neglect, meaning a caretaker failed to provide for the child's basic needs. Fewer victims experienced physical abuse (nearly 20 percent) or sexual abuse (10 percent), though these cases are typically more likely to be publicized.

The smallest number (7 percent) were found to be victims of emotional abuse, which includes criticizing, rejecting, or refusing to nurture a child.
An average of nearly four children die every day as a result of child abuse or neglect (1,400 in 2002)."
Child Abuse Statistics

I think anti-homosexuality people should focus their efforts on these problems and not what is going on is 2 consenting adults bedrooms.

[GraceAustin]

Quote by: pikatore Homsexuality about brings about a conscious a lifestyle choice even if it's driven by genetic or other derived homosexual urges. That's what I meant. That's why some gays stay in the closet, not simply because they gay, but because they are afriad to openly adopt a homosexual lifestyle, because that's when other people can start to notice..

>>>>

I'm afraid your comment is totally without reason. The reason homosexual people have been, and some remain in 'closets', is the stigma. They could lose jobs, or homes, or even be killed here in the good ol USA. The only 'choice' about being gay, is weather or not a person wants to risk the persecution of being who they are. Did you make a conscious choice to be who you are? Or does who you are fit societies view of the world, and you lived up to their expectations.

[GraceAustin]

Quote by: pikatore Homsexuality about brings about a conscious a lifestyle choice even if it's driven by genetic or other derived homosexual urges. That's what I meant. That's why some gays stay in the closet, not simply because they gay, but because they are afriad to openly adopt a homosexual lifestyle, because that's when other people can start to notice..

>>>>

Oh oh, I misunderstood your comment the first time I read it. Excuse my last response. You're right. Homosexual people must make a 'choice' of whether to be who they are. And for society to ask people to deny who they are, is abuse in the extreme.

[pikatore]

Quote by: GraceAustin The only 'choice' about being gay, is weather or not a person wants to risk the persecution of being who they are.

Which means adopting the lifestyle of a homosexual so other people are aware that you are gay to begin with.

[againstthewind]

Let us take a look at Matthew 19:4-6. This is in the context of divorce, but he said male and female thus telling us that marriage is so precious to God. In Malachi 2:16 "I hate divorce" says the LORD God of Israel. So I don't put gay marriage over as even worse than divorce. He says 'male and female' that is marriage, anything else is wrong

[againstthewind]

Gays don't choose their feelings, but the response of those feelings is the choice. Therefore, one can choose to walk away or choose to stay in the lifestyle.

[Matt W]

Quote by: againstthewind Gays don't choose their feelings, but the response of those feelings is the choice. Therefore, one can choose to walk away or choose to stay in the lifestyle.

Same with anyone. If heteros followed your advice, we'd all be dead. :confused:

[Bnet505]

I sick of the fundies and their hate. Now since racism is no longer tolerated in politics, take it out on another thing people can't control, sexuality. Anyone stupid enough to say "Homosexuality is a choice" might be a closet themselves. No, it is not a choice. You are attracted to whoever you are attracted to. Fundies spew out their pseudo-science saying "Gayness has a higher risk of AIDS" or quote some verse from Leviticus (Just a few pages over it says that parents are morally obliged to stone their children TO DEATH if they back talk ONCE!!). Get over yourselves fundies. It is not a choice.

[pikatore]

No, homosexuality CAN be a choice.

If I was exposed to homosexuality to the point where I can become totally comfortable with it, there is the possibility that I can become attracted to it and embrace it as my own lifestyle. I can then find myself drifting back to the opposite sex, and become hetero again. I wouldn't be classed as bisexual if I do that.

Does that mean I'm born gay? No.

[againstthewind]

Quote by: Bnet505 I sick of the fundies and their hate. Now since racism is no longer tolerated in politics, take it out on another thing people can't control, sexuality. Anyone stupid enough to say "Homosexuality is a choice" might be a closet themselves. No, it is not a choice. You are attracted to whoever you are attracted to. Fundies spew out their pseudo-science saying "Gayness has a higher risk of AIDS" or quote some verse from Leviticus (Just a few pages over it says that parents are morally obliged to stone their children TO DEATH if they back talk ONCE!!). Get over yourselves fundies. It is not a choice.

Your quote was in response to me saying that the choice lies in their response to the feelings. So, where was the hate? Where did I in fact, talk against homosexuals as people? There is no hate in that post, it's not about hate but hope. Men and women can get out of homosexuality, because it is not what God intended, many things aren't as God intended but I say this: When we go out of God's design, we do so at our own peril.

[againstthewind]

Response to Matt W: Mod Heterosexuals and Homosexuals can choose to walk away, heterosexuality is natural, homosexuality is not.

[pikatore]

Quote by: againstthewind When we go out of God's design, we do so at our own peril.

So being prosecuted for believing in god isn't 'perilous' for the believer? Or is this about whether or not you go to heaven or hell?

[italiangm]

Yes pikatore. In today's parlance, you'd be described as 'heteroflexible'. Based on my own personal experience, there are a significant number of hetero men who enjoy sexual activity with other males.

As studies have shown time and again, the frequency in which men choose another man to engage in sex with ranges from 0% to 100%. For men who describe themselves as 'hetero' the average number isn't 0% or 100% but somewhere in between.

And while all of this is great information, it really belongs in another thread since it does nothing but cause topic drift in a discussion about "Homosexual Marriage".

[italiangm]

againstthewind: we've all pretty much gotten the skinny on your religious beliefs. There's no need to continue repeating it.

Do you have anything new to add to the topic of Homosexual Marriage? If so, we're all ears.

If not, please give it a rest. There's a significant difference between debate and proselytizing. You're way into preaching at this point, which is outside the realm of this thread.

[Bnet505]

Quote by: againstthewind Your quote was in response to me saying that the choice lies in their response to the feelings. So, where was the hate? Where did I in fact, talk against homosexuals as people? There is no hate in that post, it's not about hate but hope. Men and women can get out of homosexuality, because it is not what God intended, many things aren't as God intended but I say this: When we go out of God's design, we do so at our own peril.

You are obviously against Gay marriage , right? I'll say that if you are against something like that then you are un-American. We are given rights and if a man and a woman can marry, why not two men. Oh, I forgot, tradition. Ohhh. And you are talking against homosexuals as people if you think that you are somehow better in your deities eye for having an enlarged INAH-3 [sic] brain cortex? Something out of the realm of control. And if theres any proof that you are hateful it is the fact that you think they can somehow increase this cortex that is impossible to change. How do you know "God" meant for gay people to change? If there is a God, why would he create a trait that is impossible to change, expecting for you to change it later? It would be like me saying for you to not be attracted to a woman because the majority of people in the country believe in a religion where heterosexuality is a sin. How would you like that?

[banko]

Quote by: againstthewind Response to Matt W: Mod Heterosexuals and Homosexuals can choose to walk away, heterosexuality is natural, homosexuality is not.

BBC NEWS | Europe | Oslo gay animal show draws crowds

Perhaps after reading the above article you could explain how it is not natural when it has been observed in over 1500 species? In fact it even states that penguins often form same sex partnerships.

I will say again - is it that god has a special section in hell for all the gay penguins
Central Park Zoo's gay penguins ignite debate

[Bnet505]

Quote by: againstthewind Response to Matt W: Mod Heterosexuals and Homosexuals can choose to walk away, heterosexuality is natural, homosexuality is not.

Maybe natural to your mind. If God made everyone different, why does he want us to be the same? Plus sexuality is controlled by a lobe called the INAH-3 [sic] that you get WHEN YOU ARE BORN. No one seems to acknowledge this. It has almost been scientifically proven. I didn't choose to be heterosexual, I was born that way. I just couldn't "Switch" whenever I pleased and neither could any straight person here because it is part of a physical lobe in the brain determined in birth. There is not one logical, scientific reason for the homosexuals to change, or even restrict their rights intended by this country. When we get through this era of prejudice, I truly think many will look back and compare this era of discrimination and laugh. Those who don't study history, are doomed to repeat it. And the Bush Administration hasn't been reading up on their history books. Banning Gay Marriage was just a tool Bush used to get elected. You make the assumption the "Homosexuality is not natural" because it isn't your way of life. I'm a supporter of polygamy, and I'm Heterosexual. Most people who hate me hate gay marriage too, why? Because anything that it outside the "Cookie-cutter Perfect Family" is immoral. Anyone that supports the ban of this right, explain to me without using religion why this is a bad thing?