Homosexual Marriage

[banko]

Quote by: texasdave Denying homosexuals marriage does not harm gays in the least. There is no overriding reason to change the status quo. They just want marriage. There is no good reason for it.

How does allowing them to marry harm hetero's?
There is no good reason to not allow it

[Zinkovich]

Well, for the THIRD time in this thread, here is a couple of studies from the American Psychological Association that throw the supposedly harmful nature of homosexual adoption being implied by texasdave and Gambr1nus into question:

AIM: In the last few years some studies have been made about homosexual parenthood and especially if this interferes with the child's development, identity and future sexual tendency. These studies prove that the parents' homosexuality does not seem to compromise the child's psychosexual development and that the child's possible homosexuality does not depend on the parents' sexual behaviour but on different factors linked to the relationship; as a matter of fact there are no relevant differences in the occurrence of homosexuality in children born from homosexual and heterosexual parents...(Snip, abridged for post length)...RESULTS: All the children showed a good adherence to their sexual role. The observations and interviews proved that the children's disorders are not linked to the parents' homosexuality. CONCLUSIONS: Being brought up by homosexual parents does not seem to compromise the child's future sexual tendency. However, in these children the sexual preference could change in adult life, being influenced by future situations and circumstances.

[Children of homoparental families: psychological ...[Minerva Pediatr. 2005] - PubMed Result

The question of whether parental sexual orientation has an impact on human development has important implications for psychological theories and for legal policy. This study examined associations among family type (same-sex vs. different-sex parents), family and relationship variables, substance use, delinquency, and victimization of adolescents. Participants included 44 adolescents living with female same-sex couples and 44 adolescents living with different-sex couples, matched on demographic characteristics and drawn from a national sample. Analyses indicated that adolescents were functioning well and that their adjustment was not associated with family type. Adolescents whose parents described closer relationships with them reported less delinquent behavior and substance use, suggesting that the quality of parent-adolescent relationships better predicts adolescent outcomes than does family type. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2006 APA, all rights reserved)

PsycARTICLES - Journal of Family Psychology - Vol 20 Iss 3 Page 526

Research Summary Lesbian and Gay Parents Many lesbians and gay men are parents. In the 2000 U. S. Census, 33% of female same-sex couple households and 22% of male same-sex couple households reported at least one child under the age of 18 living in the home. Despite the significant presence of at least 163,879 households headed by lesbian or gay parents in U.S. society, three major concerns about lesbian and gay parents are commonly voiced (Falk, 1994; Patterson, Fulcher & Wainright, 2002). These include concerns that lesbians and gay men are mentally ill, that lesbians are less maternal than heterosexual women, and that lesbians' and gay men's relationships with their sexual partners leave little time for their relationships with their children. In general, research has failed to provide a basis for any of these concerns (Patterson, 2000, 2004a; Perrin, 2002; Tasker, 1999; Tasker & Golombok, 1997). First, homosexuality is not a psychological disorder (Conger, 1975). Although exposure to prejudice and discrimination based on sexual orientation may cause acute distress (Mays & Cochran, 2001; Meyer, 2003), there is no reliable evidence that homosexual orientation per se impairs psychological functioning. Second, beliefs that lesbian and gay adults are not fit parents have no empirical foundation (Patterson, 2000, 2004a; Perrin, 2002). Lesbian and heterosexual women have not been found to differ markedly in their approaches to child rearing (Patterson, 2000; Tasker, 1999). Members of gay and lesbian couples with children have been found to divide the work involved in childcare evenly, and to be satisfied with their relationships with their partners (Patterson, 2000, 2004a). The results of some studies suggest that lesbian mothers' and gay fathers' parenting skills may be superior to those of matched heterosexual parents. There is no scientific basis for concluding that lesbian mothers or gay fathers are unfit parents on the basis of their sexual orientation (Armesto, 2002; Patterson, 2000; Tasker & Golombok, 1997). On the contrary, results of research suggest that lesbian and gay parents are as likely as heterosexual parents to provide supportive and healthy environments for their children. Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents As the social visibility and legal status of lesbian and gay parents has increased, three major concerns about the influence of lesbian and gay parents on children have been often voiced (Falk, 1994; Patterson, Fulcher & Wainright, 2002). One is that the children of lesbian and gay parents will experience more difficulties in the area of sexual identity than children of heterosexual parents. For instance, one such concern is that children brought up by lesbian mothers or gay fathers will show disturbances in gender identity and/or in gender role behavior. A second category of concerns involves aspects of children's personal development other than sexual identity. For example, some observers have expressed fears that children in the custody of gay or lesbian parents would be more vulnerable to mental breakdown, would exhibit more adjustment difficulties and behavior problems, or would be less psychologically healthy than other children. A third category of concerns is that children of lesbian and gay parents will experience difficulty in social relationships. For example, some observers have expressed concern that children living with lesbian mothers or gay fathers will be stigmatized, teased, or otherwise victimized by peers. Another common fear is that children living with gay or lesbian parents will be more likely to be sexually abused by the parent or by the parent's friends or acquaintances. Results of social science research have failed to confirm any of these concerns about children of lesbian and gay parents (Patterson, 2000, 2004a; Perrin, 2002; Tasker, 1999). Research suggests that sexual identities (including gender identity, gender-role behavior, and sexual orientation) develop in much the same ways among children of lesbian mothers as they do among children of heterosexual parents (Patterson, 2004a). Studies of other aspects of personal development (including personality, self-concept, and conduct) similarly reveal few differences between children of lesbian mothers and children of heterosexual parents (Perrin, 2002; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001; Tasker, 1999). However, few data regarding these concerns are available for children of gay fathers (Patterson, 2004b). Evidence also suggests that children of lesbian and gay parents have normal social relationships with peers and adults (Patterson, 2000, 2004a; Perrin, 2002; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001; Tasker, 1999; Tasker & Golombok, 1997). The picture that emerges from research is one of general engagement in social life with peers, parents, family members, and friends. Fears about children of lesbian or gay parents being sexually abused by adults, ostracized by peers, or isolated in single-sex lesbian or gay communities have received no scientific support. Overall, results of research suggest that the development, adjustment, and well-being of children with lesbian and gay parents do not differ markedly from that of children with heterosexual parents.

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/policy/parentschildren.pdf

Here are some statistics from the US census on homosexual couples:

- Same-gender couples live in 99.3% of all US counties. - Same-gender couples are raising children in at least 96% of all US counties. - Nearly one quarter of all same-gender couples are raising children. - Nationwide, 34.3% of lesbian couples are raising children, and 22.3% of gay male couples are raising children (compared with 45.6% of married heterosexual and 43.1% of unmarried heterosexual couples raising children). - Vermont has the largest aggregation of same gender-couples (~1% of all households) followed by California, Washington, Massachusetts, and Oregon. - Regionally, the South has the highest percentage of same-gender couples who are parents; 36.1% of lesbian couples and 23.9% of gay couples in the South are raising children. - The second highest percentage is seen in the Midwest, where 34.7% of lesbian couples and 22.9% of gay couples are parenting children. - In the West, 33.1% of lesbian couples and 21.1% of gay couples are parents. - In the Northeast, 32.6% of lesbian couples and 21.7% of gay couples are raising children. - The states with the highest percentages of lesbian couples raising children are Mississippi (43.8%), South Dakota and Utah (42.3% each), and Texas (40.9%). - The states with the highest percentages of gay male couples raising children are Alaska (36%), South Dakota (33%), Mississippi (31%), and Idaho and Utah (30% each). - Six percent of same-gender couples are raising children who have been adopted compared with 5.1% of heterosexual married couples and 2.6% of unmarried heterosexual couples.{dagger} - Eight percent of same-gender parents are raising children with special health care needs, compared with 8.3% of heterosexual unmarried parents and 5.8% of heterosexual married parents. - Of same-gender partners raising children, 41.1% have been together for 5 years or longer, whereas 19.9% of heterosexual unmarried couples have stayed together for that duration.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/censr-5.pdf

[Maryjane]

sigh...I've been avoiding this subject hoping I could get my point across without it but I guess that's not going to happen...

I'll give you a few examples how it is not fair. Let's take death for example. Most of us expect to live happily ever after like the fairy tale says. WRONG! Doesn't happen that way. "Ever after" sometimes comes a lot sooner than you think, like it or not. It's the old "God's plan" in action. (or so I'm told)


From my own personal experience and the widow/ers I've talked to (over 5,000) if feel quite comfortable saying that most couples gay or straight die without estate planning or life insurance. I will go further to say, that if they die young or sudden/ without warning they are less likely to have made preperations than someone who dies of disease or old age.

We could take a poll of the membership at Volconvo if doubt my opinion?

That said, let's talk about what happens in the hospital. Say your loved one is in a coma. Someone has to speak for them when they can not. Someone has to decide what medical treatments will be allowed. Someone has to decide if it's time to pull the plug, should that decision need to be made.

Without doccumentation stating otherwise, that person is the next of kin. So even though you have been with this person for 20 years in a loving committed relationship and they have made their wishes known to you, you are not the one that gets to make them. All because of a little piece of paper.

As a STRAIGHT couple, the spouse can and does make those decisions. In states that recognize common law marriages, you don't even need doccumentation.

So my question to you, how is that fair? Do you see the reason now? Or shall I go on? Because I'm far from done ....we haven't gotten to the actual death yet.

[italiangm]

Quote by: texasdave Denying homosexuals marriage does not harm gays in the least.

I just got through telling you it cost my household over $14,000 more in taxes and insurance premiums than it would for a hetero married couple with no kids making the same income. If you think the loss of $14,000 is not harmful to a couple's economic situation, I'd be more than happy to accept your money order addressed to me for $14,000.

Quote by: texasdave There is no overriding reason to change the status quo. They just want marriage. There is no good reason for it.

I realize this is just your opinion with absolutely zero facts to back it up. But even then, I find myself embarrassed that another human being can hold such an uninformed, uneducated opinion in 2007.

To Zinkovich,

Do you really trust those studies? Those are the same people that tell you Diet Coke makes you go crazy later in life.

And to italiangm,

Thats just the man sticking it to you. Sorry the Romans aren't so forgiving now a days, get over it.

[italiangm]

Quote by: Gambr1nus And to italiangm, Thats just the man sticking it to you. Sorry the Romans aren't so forgiving now a days, get over it.

Not a chance, buster. This country will recognize same sex marriages or civil unions with the same benefits granted to opposite sex married couples. It may take a while, but it'll happen.

Dinosaurs like you and texasdave will eventually become extinct, just as it should be.

[Zinkovich]

Quote by: Gambr1nus To Zinkovich, Do you really trust those studies? Those are the same people that tell you Diet Coke makes you go crazy later in life.

I trust the organization a hell of a lot more than I do most of the people posting about the "harm" homosexual adoption causes in this very thread. At least they back up their statements with statistical data that has been double-checked by an extensive peer-review process. Also, almost all their members are doctorates in psychology with enormous amounts of experience in the field, giving their statements a lot more weight as well, in my opinion.

As for them being the "same people", I'd like to see you back up that statement, keeping in mind the names of the authors in the studies I've provided.

[texasdave]

italiangm,
I would rather you lose that $14,000 by your choice of lifestyle than you get married and save that money and then the rest of us have to make up the difference with a raise in taxes. We heterosexuals have children to support. That's why we get tax breaks. Some gays may have children and they get appropriate head of household deductions but homosexuals cannot in and of themselves have children so they don't need marriage or the tax and insurance breaks that go along with it. You want to save that 14 grand? Give up your sinful lifestyle and marry a good woman. Otherwise, you'll just continue to pay the price by your choice. Better you pay that tax than the rest of us.

[banko]

Quote by: texasdave italiangm, I would rather you lose that $14,000 by your choice of lifestyle than you get married and save that money and then the rest of us have to make up the difference with a raise in taxes. We heterosexuals have children to support. That's why we get tax breaks. Some gays may have children and they get appropriate head of household deductions but homosexuals cannot in and of themselves have children so they don't need marriage or the tax and insurance breaks that go along with it. You want to save that 14 grand? Give up your sinful lifestyle and marry a good woman. Otherwise, you'll just continue to pay the price by your choice. Better you pay that tax than the rest of us.

You are a hypocrite texasdave. You post this kind of judgment and hate and call other people sinners then turn around in another thread and talk about peace on earth and goodwill towards men.

[texasdave]

It is goodwill to stand against that which leads men to hell. I am allowed to hate sin. And hate sin I do. We are to love the sinner but hate the sin. Well, if I hate the sin, why in the world would I be in favor of tax breaks for sin?

Quote by: Zinkovich I trust the organization a hell of a lot more than I do most of the people posting about the "harm" homosexual adoption causes in this very thread. At least they back up their statements with statistical data that has been double-checked by an extensive peer-review process. Also, almost all their members are doctorates in psychology with enormous amounts of experience in the field, giving their statements a lot more weight as well, in my opinion. As for them being the "same people", I'd like to see you back up that statement, keeping in mind the names of the authors in the studies I've provided.

Ah, it ain't the same people, but that don't matter. All those people that do studies on people, and organizations that think they get things right on with the way people are, or will become are bogus. You can't find the answer or even a near answer with a focus group, you would have to interview everyone. There are so many catches and circumstances in life that when a institution, and a group of Dr./Scientists thinks they can determine the truth by interviewing 135 people from San Francisco or wherever they get these crap answers from then anyone who believes them are crazy too.

Perhaps in your neck of the woods, surveys and stuff are o.k. But just you come where I live and see if growing up in a homosexual family is gonna turn you out the same as everyone else. And if you say we ain't right, or normal or what have you.... where in America is the idea prevelant that you can be taught by people who aren't you and you can come out any different? I know a countless number of people (more like 4) that were raised by women, and only women...in an odd environment, one that could be considered a homosexual relationship. Woman never sees her child, stay with grandmother, grandmother hates men, only sees women. Women spend the night over, two women to every man, doing each others hair, and what not..... well the guy turns out to be homosexual. It's proximity. You be around someone different that you long enough, you change. End of story. Kid grows up in a homo relationship, got a better chance to be homo. That is unless he rebels against what he feels is something disgusting?

[Hmm]

Quote by: Gambr1nus Ah, it ain't the same people, but that don't matter. All those people that do studies on people, and organizations that think they get things right on with the way people are, or will become are bogus. You can't find the answer or even a near answer with a focus group, you would have to interview everyone. There are so many catches and circumstances in life that when a institution, and a group of Dr./Scientists thinks they can determine the truth by interviewing 135 people from San Francisco or wherever they get these crap answers from then anyone who believes them are crazy too.

So, let me get this straight:

• You falsely believe that you know how the study was conducted.
• You claim the results of the study are incorrect, without providing any counter-evidence.
• You proceed to insult anyone who can accept the findings of a panel of respected psychologists.

[italiangm]

Quote by: texasdave italiangm, I would rather you lose that $14,000 by your choice of lifestyle..

I see. So I'm supposed to support your chosen lifestyle? What kind of equality is that?

Quote by: texasdave than you get married and save that money and then the rest of us have to make up the difference with a raise in taxes.

Let's be clear about this... I'm already paying extra for your lifestyle, bud. Let's clear the slate so that you pay your share of taxes and I pay my share of taxes.

Quote by: texasdave We heterosexuals have children to support.

It was your choice to have children. The only support I'll grant your children is to share in the cost of their education, and if you're poor, I share in the cost of transportation to/from school and a decent meal so their little brains can function.

Otherwise, you and your spouse need to learn how to control your libido until you're reach a stage where you have enough income to intelligently manage a household that contains children. Furthermore, you'll need to learn how to restrain your purchasing behavior and how to save for the future. Oh, and learn how to pick mates for life instead of divorcing 50% of the time whille you're at it. You breeders do more damage to the family unit than homosexuals ever will.

Quote by: texasdave That's why we get tax breaks.

You mean special privileges. Remember that phrase, son. You'll need it for later.

Quote by: texasdave Some gays may have children and they get appropriate head of household deductions but homosexuals cannot in and of themselves have children so they don't need marriage or the tax and insurance breaks that go along with it.

Who's talking about tax breaks for having children? I know many kidless, hetero couples where one person works an executive job and the other takes care of the others' needs to help support that job. That household gets a tax break for the 'stay at home spouse'. Let me remind you Congress voted on that 'stay at home' tax break to recognize the contribution of the spouse making a career out of supporting their mate, instead of engaging in a career of their own.

There are many gay households who operate in an identical fashion. Yet, the 'stay at home spouse' that supports their mate is not recognized for their contribution. That's not equality. And it's not fair.

Quote by: texasdave You want to save that 14 grand? Give up your sinful lifestyle and marry a good woman.

Our government doesn't determine benefits according to your pompous definition of 'sin'. The closest description to 'sin' is the colloquial use of 'sin taxes' which apply to tobacco, liquor, and gambling proceeds.

Quote by: texasdave Otherwise, you'll just continue to pay the price by your choice. Better you pay that tax than the rest of us.

Here's your clue, son, so you better listen reeeeeal close. . Your 'special privilege' days are numbered. Equality is coming down the pike soon. And guess what? You'll just have to suck it up and get used to being 'equal' instead of 'special'.

Aww, poor you. BooHoo. Get over it.

[Zinkovich]

Quote by: Gambr1nus Ah, it ain't the same people, but that don't matter. All those people that do studies on people, and organizations that think they get things right on with the way people are, or will become are bogus. You can't find the answer or even a near answer with a focus group, you would have to interview everyone. There are so many catches and circumstances in life that when a institution, and a group of Dr./Scientists thinks they can determine the truth by interviewing 135 people from San Francisco or wherever they get these crap answers from then anyone who believes them are crazy too.

The fact is that the statistics they have gathered has indicated at least the possibility of children being raised in a homosexual family without ill effects, while legitimate statistics indicating the opposite seem rather few and far between from my experience.

Perhaps in your neck of the woods, surveys and stuff are o.k.

In my neck of the woods it is, because surveys are based on actual experience, and are documented in a way that alows anyone to scrutinize or analyse them- unlike anecdotes which can be made up or presented in a conveniently skewed manner on the spot.

But just you come where I live and see if growing up in a homosexual family is gonna turn you out the same as everyone else. And if you say we ain't right, or normal or what have you.... where in America is the idea prevelant that you can be taught by people who aren't you and you can come out any different?

What is wrong with "different", if it is not proven to be harmful?

I know a countless number of people (more like 4) that were raised by women, and only women...in an odd environment, one that could be considered a homosexual relationship. Woman never sees her child, stay with grandmother, grandmother hates men, only sees women. Women spend the night over, two women to every man, doing each others hair, and what not..... well the guy turns out to be homosexual. It's proximity. You be around someone different that you long enough, you change. End of story. Kid grows up in a homo relationship, got a better chance to be homo. That is unless he rebels against what he feels is something disgusting?

Ah, but that situation has nothing to do with homosexuality in and of itself. Homosexual families are not commonly shown as the sort to demonize heterosexuals when talking to their children about sexual issues once they reach adolescence.

In fact, children of homosexual parents tend to be raised in the same areas as children of heterosexual parents(there is little isolation amongst the groups outside of the bible belt), although the sexuality of the children's parents tend not to be known by their peers). As long as the child is raised to be socially healthy, there would be no barriers for the child to learn about "normal" behavior or about the "heterosexual lifestyle" by societal proxy on his own.

Different is bad. We must all conform.

[pikatore]

Quote by: texasdave I was trying to show how kids are better off with two parents, first. Next, I will show that having two moms or two dads does not equal one of each. I think I made my first point. But I will put up some more links just for the sake of consistency.

Ahh... have you checked the stats for divorce rates? How do you think SINGLE PARENTS BECOME SINGLE? But of course having two parents is more beneficial, but there is nothing to suggest that homo and hetero marriages may differ in split rates. Your source is off topic and misleading.

[pikatore]

Quote by: texasdave It is goodwill to stand against that which leads men to hell. I am allowed to hate sin. And hate sin I do. We are to love the sinner but hate the sin. Well, if I hate the sin, why in the world would I be in favor of tax breaks for sin?

Because (sigh) :

(a) There are a gazillion other religions in the world who don't give a DAMN about yours

hence,

(b) There are billions of other people in the world who don't have the same definition of sin

and

(c) Seeing how your religion would declare ME as someone who is going to hell because i see no plausible reason to stop gays from marrying, since I don't subscribe to bible bashers weekly, I think your opinion is rubbish.

[Maryjane]

I don't see the point in debating Tex or Gambr any further on this issue as they have yet to prove a valid argument or provide a respectable source for their opinions. Until they do, I'll stop feeding the trolls. Thanks to the rest of you for all the interesting and informative posts.

[pikatore]

For now, I guess we'll just have to repent...

[pikatore]

Quote by: Gambr1nus But just you come where I live and see if growing up in a homosexual family is gonna turn you out the same as everyone else. And if you say we ain't right, or normal or what have you.... where in America is the idea prevelant that you can be taught by people who aren't you and you can come out any different?

And if a kid is brought up in a house where there is a lot of domestic turmoil and conflict, and then divorce, then they will have a higher chance to turn out bad. Maybe we should arrest parents who argue a lot on sight, or ban divorces from occuring. That would be as feasable in my opinion as banning gay marriage.

By the way, I know a guy who has two dads, he seems just fine to me, if a little soft. And he is hetero. So people can be brought up by homo couples and be just fine.