Homosexual Marriage

[Hmm]

Quote by: Gambr1nus Homosexual Marriage doesn't make sense in any form. Marriage is a bond set forth by Christian and moral ancestors to show the spiritual bond between one man and one woman.

Your one religion may define it as such. Other people/religions may not.

Yes, it may seem unfair to the bleeding hearts to not allow one person a special bond, when you allow another person a special bond...but in order to meet the requirements of a time tested institution, one must adhere to it's policies, not change them because it is a timely thing to do.

Why must marriage be confined to a man and a woman?

One person previously in the argument brought up Black People, and how they weren't treated evenly in previous times. I would say that this is a terrible example because Black people are a race, and someone can not chose to be a particular race, but your sexual preference is most defiantly a choice.

Care to back that statement up?

If someone can be gay by proximity (prison)

Explain, please?

be gay for profit (porn actors) then it wouldn't make sense to me, that there is a formal cause for homosexuality and that people can be born "that way."

Again, before you make such assertions, you need to provide evidence that states that homosexuality is indeed a choice.

People need to get over the fact that somethings will always be different for people who are different. In the eyes of some people the world won't be right until we are all a brownish/grey color with both sex organs. That way everyone can be treated the same, because everyone is the same.

I'm not sure what type of reasoning your attempting to use to justify your prejudices, but it makes absolutely no sense. Basically, you're saying that people need to "get over the fact" that some people will always be discriminated against.

I don't agree with homosexual marriage because it's not a love relationship in the sense that marriage was created by God.

In your own mind it was, but, sadly enough, our laws are not based upon what your god said.

[Hmm]

Quote by: Gambr1nus And I know someone will bring up the point about how dogs are gay or something, or other animals have homosexual tendencies.... well forget that because in putting the mind back in our bodies, we have thought, and know right from wrong. That's why we have an understanding and know our destiny, or at least that from an early age we are meant to die.

Then, in your mind, homosexuality is immoral? Why is that?

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Gam Black people are a race, and someone can not chose to be a particular race, but your sexual preference is most defiantly a choice. If someone can be gay by proximity (prison)

The people who are "Gay by proximity" are not gay. They simply choose to have homosexual relations because there is no heterosexual option available. I don't like cheese, but I would eat some if I were starving. That doesn't change my preference not to eat cheese, just as "proximal homosexuality" doesn't change the individual's heterosexual preference.

Quote by: Gam be gay for profit (porn actors)

People who are "gay for profit" are not gay. They simply choose to engage in homosexual sex because they are being paid. I don't like cheese, but I would eat it if someone paid me enough money. That doesn't change my preference not to eat cheese, just as "profitable homosexuality" doesn't change the individual's heterosexual preference.

If you want to prove that sexuality is a choice, you're going to have to do better than that.

To Answer Hmm:


Quote:
Quote by: Gambr1nus View Post
Homosexual Marriage doesn't make sense in any form. Marriage is a bond set forth by Christian and moral ancestors to show the spiritual bond between one man and one woman.
Your one religion may define it as such. Other people/religions may not.


That is why I put Christian and Moral Ancestors. And if want to say that other Religions that don't have laws against Homosexuality respect institutions like Marriage, then let these homosexuals convert to that religion and make their marriage legal. And if you plan to say that in America Religion matters not, then elect people of that religion that support that religion that support homosexuality.


Quote:
Yes, it may seem unfair to the bleeding hearts to not allow one person a special bond, when you allow another person a special bond...but in order to meet the requirements of a time tested institution, one must adhere to it's policies, not change them because it is a timely thing to do.
Why must marriage be confined to a man and a woman?

Because marriage represents a physical and a spiritual relation of a man and woman to be committed to each other, until death. The vows don't read man and man, and it was Adam and Eve.

Quote:
One person previously in the argument brought up Black People, and how they weren't treated evenly in previous times. I would say that this is a terrible example because Black people are a race, and someone can not chose to be a particular race, but your sexual preference is most defiantly a choice.
Care to back that statement up?

Are you saying that I can choose my race, M.J.?
Quote:
If someone can be gay by proximity (prison)
Explain, please?

Having a homosexual relation in prison, is proof that it is the want for sexual intercourse that makes someone gay. If you put a gay man in a room full of women, if he craved sexual intercourse, would he not have sex? Homosexuality is something people do. Not something they have to do.
Quote:
be gay for profit (porn actors) then it wouldn't make sense to me, that there is a formal cause for homosexuality and that people can be born "that way."
Again, before you make such assertions, you need to provide evidence that states that homosexuality is indeed a choice.

Quote:
People need to get over the fact that somethings will always be different for people who are different. In the eyes of some people the world won't be right until we are all a brownish/grey color with both sex organs. That way everyone can be treated the same, because everyone is the same.
I'm not sure what type of reasoning your attempting to use to justify your prejudices, but it makes absolutely no sense. Basically, you're saying that people need to "get over the fact" that some people will always be discriminated against.

thats true. that is what i am saying. we will never be equal. if we were equal, men and women would get paid the same, sex would have any say in the armed forces.... women wouldn't excpet to be trated better. there wouldn't be such things as respect and manners, if we were to be all treated the same.

Quote:
I don't agree with homosexual marriage because it's not a love relationship in the sense that marriage was created by God.
In your own mind it was, but, sadly enough, our laws are not based upon what your god said.

They seem to be, seeing as how it ain't legal yet. People still have some sense about themselves.



Quote:
Quote by: Gambr1nus View Post
And I know someone will bring up the point about how dogs are gay or something, or other animals have homosexual tendencies.... well forget that because in putting the mind back in our bodies, we have thought, and know right from wrong. That's why we have an understanding and know our destiny, or at least that from an early age we are meant to die.
Then, in your mind, homosexuality is immoral? Why is that?

Because I am not a homosexual. The faith that governs my soul, and the faith that governs the majority of souls in the world or at least in my country, or at least in my state, or at least in my county, or at least in my home, or at least in me.... say that it is something that is less than to be desired, something that is sin. Sin is not a law, but a bunch of our broken laws are sins.

And to Poke at Gam:


Quote:
Quote by: Gam
Black people are a race, and someone can not chose to be a particular race, but your sexual preference is most defiantly a choice. If someone can be gay by proximity (prison)
The people who are "Gay by proximity" are not gay. They simply choose to have homosexual relations because there is no heterosexual option available. I don't like cheese, but I would eat some if I were starving. That doesn't change my preference not to eat cheese, just as "proximal homosexuality" doesn't change the individual's heterosexual preference.

Quote:
Quote by: Gam
be gay for profit (porn actors)
People who are "gay for profit" are not gay. They simply choose to engage in homosexual sex because they are being paid. I don't like cheese, but I would eat it if someone paid me enough money. That doesn't change my preference not to eat cheese, just as "profitable homosexuality" doesn't change the individual's heterosexual preference.

If you want to prove that sexuality is a choice, you're going to have to do better than that.


How am I going to have to do better than that? You completly described the point I am making. A person's sexuality is no more than any other choice they make, to eat, to survive, to make money. It's something someone can shut on or off, and for those people who claim they are born homosexual or whathave you, well then are lying because if any other person can do it to just be doing it, then they can as well. Therefor we don't need to embrace a choice. Be like the majority and serve a normal existence. And if you plan to say that this choice in homosexuality hurts no one, then I am one who will support big business's trip into other things less desirable...drugs, hell why not prostitution. Rape, and theft..... let's lets these choices run them all. No one should so close minded as to shut these simple pleasures up, we're humans.... it's the 21st century, we should be able to express ourselves. let's put a flag in a jar, piss on it, and call it art. it's all the same. we are just being ourselves, and there is nno higerpower, or "man" that can tell me otherwise. Ya know?

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Gambr1nus How am I going to have to do better than that? You completly described the point I am making. A person's sexuality is no more than any other choice they make, to eat, to survive, to make money. It's something someone can shut on or off, and for those people who claim they are born homosexual or whathave you, well then are lying because if any other person can do it to just be doing it, then they can as well. Therefor we don't need to embrace a choice. Be like the majority and serve a normal existence. And if you plan to say that this choice in homosexuality hurts no one, then I am one who will support big business's trip into other things less desirable...drugs, hell why not prostitution. Rape, and theft..... let's lets these choices run them all. No one should so close minded as to shut these simple pleasures up, we're humans.... it's the 21st century, we should be able to express ourselves. let's put a flag in a jar, piss on it, and call it art. it's all the same. we are just being ourselves, and there is nno higerpower, or "man" that can tell me otherwise. Ya know?

First of all, welcome to Volconvo. Since you haven't really met any of us, unless you've been lurking, you should probably know that several posters on this forum, including myself, have no problem with the legalization of drugs and prostitution, and I would pay a pretty penny for a flag in a jar full of urine if it looked anywhere near as lovely as this. However blasphemous that image is, it's also a beautiful image, and that's why it is art.

But to the issue at hand: you are talking about homosexual behaviors, not a homosexual orientation. Someone who finds members of the same sex attractive is a homosexual; someone who has sex with people of the same sex is participating in homosexual behavior, but may or may not be a homosexual, depending on whether or not that person finds members of the same sex attractive -- since, as I am sure you are aware, people are perfectly capable of performing sexually without being attracted to their partner, as our bodies respond to stimuli evenb if our minds and hearts do not. Homosexual behavior is a choice, and as you say, it is one that harms no one and so should be allowed as long as the sex only involves consenting adults; homosexuality as an orientation is not a choice. Thus it is not reasonable grounds for discrimination: people are born homosexuals, just as some people are born black and some are born white.


By the way, here is a guide for using the Quote function. It helps to make your replies easier to read.
http://www.volconvo.com/forums/site-...tes-lists.html

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Gam How am I going to have to do better than that? You completly described the point I am making. A person's sexuality is no more than any other choice they make, to eat, to survive, to make money. It's something someone can shut on or off, and for those people who claim they are born homosexual or whathave you, well then are lying because if any other person can do it to just be doing it, then they can as well.

Homosexuality is the preference. People don’t change their preferences; they change their behaviour, as I already demonstrated. Hence, your claim that sexual preference is a choice was incorrect.

Quote by: Gam Therefor we don't need to embrace a choice. Be like the majority and serve a normal existence. And if you plan to say that this choice in homosexuality hurts no one, then I am one who will support big business's trip into other things less desirable...drugs, hell why not prostitution. Rape, and theft….

Rape and theft do hurt people.

[Hmm]

Quote by: Gambr1nus That is why I put Christian and Moral Ancestors. And if want to say that other Religions that don't have laws against Homosexuality respect institutions like Marriage, then let these homosexuals convert to that religion and make their marriage legal. And if you plan to say that in America Religion matters not, then elect people of that religion that support that religion that support homosexuality.

Have you heard of the separation between church and state? :eek:

Because marriage represents a physical and a spiritual relation of a man and woman to be committed to each other, until death. The vows don't read man and man, and it was Adam and Eve.

I repeat: Laws are not based upon various religions/fairy tales.

Are you saying that I can choose my race, M.J.?

Jokes aside, no I am not asking that. I am asking you to provide proof for your assertion that homosexuality is a choice. Do you have any studies that support your position?

Having a homosexual relation in prison, is proof that it is the want for sexual intercourse that makes someone gay.

How can one prove that those who choose to have homosexual relations in prison are homosexually oriented? There is a difference between exhibiting homosexual behavior out of lack of a preferred female partner and truly being homosexual, having no desire for women.

thats true. that is what i am saying. we will never be equal. if we were equal, men and women would get paid the same, sex would have any say in the armed forces.... women wouldn't excpet to be trated better. there wouldn't be such things as respect and manners, if we were to be all treated the same.

As a society we should strive for equality in terms of personal rights and freedoms, not shun away from them. Do all people currently have equal rights at the moment? No. Does that somehow justify our denial of their rights? No.

They seem to be, seeing as how it ain't legal yet.

I think you need to learn a bit more about cause and effect relations. Simply because your religion says Z is bad and Z currently is illegal does not mean that your religion caused Z to be illegal.

People still have some sense about themselves.

"Sense?" Is that what you would call it? You yourself cannot even logically defend your prejudices, yet you think your ideas are senseful?

Because I am not a homosexual. The faith that governs my soul, and the faith that governs the majority of souls in the world or at least in my country, or at least in my state, or at least in my county, or at least in my home, or at least in me.... say that it is something that is less than to be desired, something that is sin. Sin is not a law, but a bunch of our broken laws are sins.

Faith can do that to you.

[Jack]

there wouldn't be such things as respect and manners, if we were to be all treated the same.

Eh? You don't show respect and behave mannerly toward your peers? Since when does equality abrogate the need to be polite, respectful and well-mannered?

I love you people, but since you do not share a single ideal that I do, it would be hard to make any sense of what I am trying to say. 4 one 1 is good odds that my view point will be beat down.

I am new to this place, I joined last night.

Since none of y'all respect the idea that a higher power than yourself exists, or at least not in the sense that I do, it is impossible for me to explain my view because we don't have the same basis.

I know that is one of your points; the fact that not everyone believes the same thing. I personally don't care what other people think. I am as closed minded as one typically could get with out being considered a fascist, or racist, or some other kind of -ist.

We are not progressing. I think we stopped progressing about the turn of the century. I know people are going to bring up women's suffrage and all that, and thats good and all, but the more we intermingle with each others problems, and think that we have to make everything safe for everyone's beliefs, well thats where we trample on our own.

Thinking that allowing one thing is good to appease a sect is a great fault in its self. This country was built on compromise, but at what level will we reach the end of what can be considered something that needs to be made legal, illegal, or a law in general?

Viewing Homosexual Marriage as common place is insanity. People can do what ever they wish in the privacy of their own residences, shy of breaking any law that has previously been passed in their place of residence. But to think that America should view this as a normality is crazy talk. Go be a homosexual or whatever, thats fine, you got your rights to live as you wish, but don't push it on me. Don't come into an existing system and change it to benefit you. At best this crap would be a fad like prohibition.

Quote by: Isherwood Eh? You don't show respect and behave mannerly toward your peers? Since when does equality abrogate the need to be polite, respectful and well-mannered?

If you don't have manners toward someone, then you, yourself don't deem them to be equal.

Quote:
Having a homosexual relation in prison, is proof that it is the want for sexual intercourse that makes someone gay.
How can one prove that those who choose to have homosexual relations in prison are homosexually oriented? There is a difference between exhibiting homosexual behavior out of lack of a preferred female partner and truly being homosexual, having no desire for women.

And how do you make that distinction? Perhaps someone in prison would change their preference after being with men so long. Oh... But we Can't Change our preferences now can we? I mean who cares what people prefer.

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Homosexuality is the preference. People don’t change their preferences; they change their behaviour, as I already demonstrated. Hence, your claim that sexual preference is a choice was incorrect. Rape and theft do hurt people.

Yeah the bit about rape and theft, I used sarcasm in there somewhere... perhaps that was it, I don't really value this community so I don't feel like reviewing what I already wrote.

[Jack]

We are not progressing. I think we stopped progressing about the turn of the century.

I'm interested in knowing how you can think that while typing on a computer and posting to the internet in a forum with members from around the world?

Quote by: Isherwood I'm interested in knowing how you can think that while typing on a computer and posting to the internet in a forum with members from around the world?

Because all this does is lead to laziness. We don't work for anything anymore. People just take technology for granted, and someday things will become like the Jetsons, and then one of Asimov's fantasies will surely pan out.

I mean in field of medicine and science we have progressed immensely, but living to 100, what kind of quality of life do most elderly have in nursing homes.

What are we teaching our children with the filth that is propagated on TV. Liberal news media runs the show that tells people to distrust everyone. And if you have no basis for that, speculate.

Turn on ole Paris Hilton, and watch the crap that is blasted over the air waves.

What happened to people who wrote books, when people read? Where has poetry gone? People rely too much on a system that is doomed to fail. Social Security, Welfare, Affirmative Action, it's all a joke that has it's footholds in communism.

And as for the computer and the internet, all it has done is put factory workers and librarians out of work, respectively.

[Night]

Quote by: texasdave Here is one site from the UK. Study Says Broken Homes Harm Kids More: ASAP Family News Articles

Good job! Now only if that link said a damned thing about homosexual adoption AT ALL, then maybe it would be relevant to this conversation.

Quote by: texasdave I was trying to show how kids are better off with two parents, first. Next, I will show that having two moms or two dads does not equal one of each. I think I made my first point. But I will put up some more links just for the sake of consistency.

...still waiting Dave!

Quote by: Gambr1nus Homosexual Marriage doesn't make sense in any form. Marriage is a bond set forth by Christian and moral ancestors to show the spiritual bond between one man and one woman. Marriage has it's flaws in today's society because of things like divorce, and prenuptial agreements, and lawsuits for any of the like. If it were a correct society, there would be homosexuals, like there would be any flaw in the human form, i.e. theives, rapists, etc. We are given a choice as people to do what we want, and because of that Homosexuals will always be around, like that have been around many thousands of years before. I don't think anyone should encourage such behavior, because it produces no positive outcome for anyone. Yes, it may seem unfair to the bleeding hearts to not allow one person a special bond, when you allow another person a special bond...but in order to meet the requirements of a time tested institution, one must adhere to it's policies, not change them because it is a timely thing to do.

200 years ago, we thought blacks were animals. Yet a few people weren't as ignorant as the majority, and saw that blacks were human, and made some laws to give and protect their rights.

Sound familiar?

Quote by: Gambr1nus One person previously in the argument brought up Black People, and how they weren't treated evenly in previous times. I would say that this is a terrible example because Black people are a race, and someone can not chose to be a particular race, but your sexual preference is most defiantly a choice. If someone can be gay by proximity (prison) be gay for profit (porn actors) then it wouldn't make sense to me, that there is a formal cause for homosexuality and that people can be born "that way."

It's true. Gay people have different brain structures then a straight person of the same race.

There is a lot more proof of the genetic side of this argument, but I'm not even going to try explaining this to you, you probably either wouldn't understand, or would just ignore it...

One thing is for certain, I definitely didn't choose to be gay...why in the fuck would ANYONE choose to be gay?!

Quote by: Gambr1nus People need to get over the fact that somethings will always be different for people who are different. In the eyes of some people the world won't be right until we are all a brownish/grey color with both sex organs. That way everyone can be treated the same, because everyone is the same. I don't agree with homosexual marriage because it's not a love relationship in the sense that marriage was created by God. They will probably get their unions or whatever, for tax purposes, but what would you expect from the Romans?

Pfft...please, you've obviously never met a homosexual couple.

Quote by: Gambr1nus btw, in the state of Tennessee it is illegal for Homosexual couples to adopt children. We feel it isn't a good background for youth to be brought up in a confusing atmosphere.

...like half the heterosexual marriages AREN'T confusing?! There re valid scientific research studies that show that children of homosexual couples are just as level-headed as children of heterosexuals!!!

Quote by: Gambr1nus I know some will debate that it is confusing. But if you want to strip away all mentalities on the subject, removing ideas and thought, and religion, and go back to the primal instincts, it is our main concern to mate and reproduce our race. Homosexuals lack that key ability. And I know someone will bring up the point about how dogs are gay or something, or other animals have homosexual tendencies.... well forget that because in putting the mind back in our bodies, we have thought, and know right from wrong. That's why we have an understanding and know our destiny, or at least that from an early age we are meant to die.

Well, some people's definition of right and wrong is quite different from your backward 4,000 year old principles. And while I know you'll probably ignore most of this post instead of actually LEARNING something, it is a good idea to not be as close-minded as you are. Your type of closed-minded ignorance is driving many people away from religion.

[Hmm]

Quote by: Gambr1nus Viewing Homosexual Marriage as common place is insanity. People can do what ever they wish in the privacy of their own residences, shy of breaking any law that has previously been passed in their place of residence. But to think that America should view this as a normality is crazy talk. Go be a homosexual or whatever, thats fine, you got your rights to live as you wish, but don't push it on me.

Please, explain yourself. How would giving homosexual couples the same rights that heterosexual couples have be "pushing it [homosexuality?] on you?"

[Jack]

And how is not allowing gay couples to enjoy a married life with children not pushing your beliefs on everyone else?

[texasdave]

Denying homosexuals marriage does not harm gays in the least. There is no overriding reason to change the status quo. They just want marriage. There is no good reason for it.

[Matt W]

There's no bad reason for it either....so why not?