Homosexual Marriage

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: texasdave Court costs only offset a portion of the costs of marriage and divorce.

What costs would these be? Are you saying that the fees people pay for marriage licenses don't offset the state's outlay? And somehow the government subsidizes divorce costs? I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but I'd love to see some evidence.

Quote by: texasdave We do not need nor should we pay for the additional burden homosexual marriage would place on our already overcrowded court system.

What burden? The thousands upon thousands of divorce proceedings that would inevitably follow the legalization of gay marriage?
Why do you think there would be any appreciable number of divorce proceedings requiring court time?
Why aren't you speaking out against no-fault divorce or alimony and communal property laws between heterosexuals, or one of the other institutions that has led to the massive percentage of heterosexual unions that end in divorce? Or the time and money lost on frivolous lawsuits? Of all the problems facing our courts, I would think that gay divorce would be low on the list.

Quote by: texasdave And gay marriage will normalize homosexuality and encourage others to experiment with it thus furthering the problems of STDs. And that will further strain the health care system. And there is a difference in costs from indigent care to health insurance. Indigent care does not cover everything. Health insurance would cover more and therefore costs would rise for insurance.

The segment of the population with the highest rates of STDs is teenagers, not homosexuals. Once again, I think you're looking at the wrong problem. I'd also like to see a smidge of evidence that the legalization of gay marriage would increase homosexuality. Did heterosexuality rates increase when heterosexual marriage was made a government institution?

All sarcasm aside, I think homosexuality is well on its way to being socially acceptable, and it's going to get there whether gay marriage is legitimized or not. So I'm not sure what we are preventing, by keeping homosexuals from having legal unions.

But I'll tell you what we're losing: we're losing our ability to cohere as a nation. We're losing our ideals, of freedom and equality for all. We're losing the valuable contributions that homosexuals give to society, as people are not going to live in a place where they are not wanted. We're losing the separation of church and state, and thus our ability to create a rational, humane government.

And in exchange -- what? We save money on a tax break? I have a solution for that: remove the tax breaks for all married couples. All of 'em. Problem solved. Or here's an even better one: pull our military out of Iraq and stop spending billions of dollars on our addiction to foreign oil. Problem solved again.

[texasdave]

coffee,
No one is saying they hate homosexuals or anything like that. Homosexuals already have the EXACT same rights as heterosexuals. They can marry anyone of the opposite sex they choose. Even I as a heterosexual am forbidden to marry a woman of close relation. So, I'm restricted too. I do oppose no-fault divorce but that is not the topic at hand. This is about homosexual marriage.

[Maryjane]

Also, increased health care costs for those with HIV/AIDS and other STDs. Homosexuals as a demographic group have the highest STD rates in the world.

Tex,
Bone up on your AIDS/HIV/STD facts please. As a straight female entering the dating scene, (should I decide to become sexually active) I have more of a chance of contracting a social disease than a committed, monogamous gay couple. First guy I dated confessed he had Herpes. Wow..one for one! (No wonder I don't date. Damn I miss being married!!)

One in four sexually active Americans will be affected by an STD at some time in his or her life. About 12 million new STD infections occur in the United States each year. One in four occurs in someone between the ages of 16 and 19. Almost 65% of all STD infections affect people under the age of 25.

Do you think these Americans are all gay?

Sub-Saharan Africa remains by far the worst affected region, with an estimated 21.6 to 27.4 million people currently living with HIV. Two million [1.5–3.0 million] of them are children younger than 15 years of age. More than 64% of all people living with HIV are in sub-Saharan Africa, as are more than three quarters (76%) of all women living with HIV. In 2005, there were 12.0 million [10.6–13.6 million] AIDS orphans living in sub-Saharan Africa 2005.[5] South & South East Asia are second worst affected with 15%. AIDS accounts for the deaths of 500,000 children in this region. Two-thirds of HIV/AIDS infections in Asia occur in India, with an estimated 5.7 million infections (estimated 3.4 – 9.4 million) (0.9% of population), surpassing South Africa's estimated 5.5 million (4.9–6.1 million) (11.9% of population) infections, making it the country with the highest number of HIV infections in the world.[109] In the 35 African nations with the highest prevalence, average life expectancy is 48.3 years— 6.5 years less than it would be without the disease.[110]

Women and children, did you read that? CHILDREN! Not everyone who contracts AIDS is a homosexual.

AIDS stigma exists around the world in a variety of ways, including ostracism, rejection,discrimination and avoidance of HIV infected people; compulsory HIV testing without prior consent or protection of confidentiality; violence against HIV infected individuals or people who are perceived to be infected with HIV; and the quarantine of HIV infected individuals.[119] Stigma-related violence or the fear of violence prevents many people from seeking HIV testing, returning for their results, or securing treatment, possibly turning what could be a manageable chronic illness into a death sentence and perpetuating the spread of HIV.[120] AIDS stigma has been further divided into the following three categories: Instrumental AIDS stigma—a reflection of the fear and apprehension that are likely to be associated with any deadly and transmissible illness.[121] Symbolic AIDS stigma—the use of HIV/AIDS to express attitudes toward the social groups or lifestyles perceived to be associated with the disease.[121] Courtesy AIDS stigma—stigmatization of people connected to the issue of HIV/AIDS or HIV- positive people.[122] Often, AIDS stigma is expressed in conjunction with one or more other stigmas, particularly those associated with homosexuality, bisexuality, promiscuity, and intravenous drug use. In many developed countries, there is an association between AIDS and homosexuality or bisexuality, and this association is correlated with higher levels of sexual prejudice such as anti-homosexual attitudes.[123] There is also a perceived association between all male-male sexual behavior and AIDS, even sex between two uninfected men. Those most likely to hold misconceptions about HIV transmission and to harbor HIV/AIDS stigma are less educated people and people with high levels of religiosity or conservative political ideology.[121][123][124]For more details on this topic, see Stigma and HIV-AIDS, A review of the literature[125]

Let's move on to increased health care costs. Do you realize that most Americans die from heart associated illnesses followed by cancer? Those are what is cause your rate increases, not homosexuals with AIDS.

Misconceptions and paranoia = homophobia. Gays deserve every right you and I have as straights. They pay taxes yet are denied the same rights. When their partner dies, they are not allowed the same rights as you and I so don't give me that crap they do. I know, I've talked to them. It's a dirty low down shame the moral majority and religious right have such influience in our government.

(Bolding mine)

sexually transmitted disease: Definition and Much More from Answers.com

AIDS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Jack]

Thank you, Maryjane, for countering the hysteria with information.

Straights often ask why gays are so "in their face". The above suggests a good reason. There's so much FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) being spread by those opposed to gays that the only way to counter their nonsense is by calling attention to ourselves and letting others see we're no different than they are. Since only 10% or less of the population is gay, the odds are good that many people know not one (openly) homosexual person. All they know of gays is what their pastor tells them, or their parents told them or they hear on the TV. By exposing them to non-stereotypes, we are trying to combat the foolishness being passed off as truth by those who know nothing about it.

Gays being allowed to legally marry would not harm straight marriage in the least. It would have few if any of the dire results predicted by those who oppose it. It would also not be the major breakthrough in equal rights that gays hope for, any more than equal racial rights solved all racial inequalities. Racism still exists, homophobia will too no matter what straights allow us to do.

[Mozart1220]

Quote by: texasdave While homosexuality is a sin that is a matter for a different thread. Secularly speaking, homosexuals have no need of marriage. Marriage is an agreement or contract between two people and the state. The state is interested in promoting and protecting things that are beneficial to society at large. Heterosexual marriage produces something that is vital to the survival of society....children. Homosexual unions in and of themselves produce no benefit to society and so government has no overriding need to promote or protect those relationships. It would be an unnecessary government expense and headache. Homosexuals do not NEED marriage, they just WANT it. Want is not an entitlement.

Homosexuality being a sin may be YOUR OPINION, but is not really a good argument.

Same sex marraige would allow one person to insure another, allow them to inherit property, and at least improve the chances of a monogamous relationship.

Not on;y that, it would improve the happiness of hundreds of thousands of people.

Those things arent beneficial to society?


Our treatment of Gays in this country is nothing more than state sanctioned BIGOTRY, which is definitely NOT beneficial to ANYONE.


My fiancee and I will never have children, are you suggesting we should not be allowed to marry?

[Mozart1220]

Quote by: texasdave coffee, No one is saying they hate homosexuals or anything like that. Homosexuals already have the EXACT same rights as heterosexuals. They can marry anyone of the opposite sex they choose. Even I as a heterosexual am forbidden to marry a woman of close relation. So, I'm restricted too. I do oppose no-fault divorce but that is not the topic at hand. This is about homosexual marriage.

You deny them the right to choose whom they please. What if hetroes were allowed to marry only members of the same sex? Would you be OK with THAT restriction?

Of course not.

[Jack]

They can marry anyone of the opposite sex they choose.

Why can a hermaphrodite legally marry? They have no opposite sex. Anyone they marry is similar to half of their "sex".

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: texasdave coffee, No one is saying they hate homosexuals or anything like that.

Oh, please. I'm not making an accusation against you personally, but look at the facts: we have a group of people who are asking for some consideration. And not only have we denied them that consideration -- which I would argue is their just due, but even if it is not, it certainly isn't a major concession on the part of society as a whole -- but we have described them as abominations, founded movement after movement to oppose their fair treatment, even going so far as to propose an amendment to the Constitution to block their inclusion in our institutions. Tell me that this can be construed as anything but hatred.

Quote by: texasdave Homosexuals already have the EXACT same rights as heterosexuals. They can marry anyone of the opposite sex they choose. Even I as a heterosexual am forbidden to marry a woman of close relation. So, I'm restricted too. I do oppose no-fault divorce but that is not the topic at hand. This is about homosexual marriage.

That's a specious argument, and I think you know it. Homosexuals do not have the same opportunity granted to you as a heterosexual, as you can marry someone that you can love and share your life with in a meaningful way -- that is, you can have a REAL marriage. Homosexuals cannot do that.

Incest is a red herring as much as is no-fault divorce; my only point with bringing that up is to say that you should be spending your time arguing about that, and not this, if you actually want to save the institution of marriage. So, in just the same way, if you want to talk about incest, start another thread.

[texasdave]

We can start to save the institution of marriage by not allowing homosexuals to give a dying institution the coup de grace.
Mozart,
Homosexuality being a sin is not my opinion. It is God's and that makes it truth. Homosexuality is a sin. That is a FACT.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: texasdave We can start to save the institution of marriage by not allowing homosexuals to give a dying institution the coup de grace. Mozart, Homosexuality being a sin is not my opinion. It is God's and that makes it truth. Homosexuality is a sin. That is a FACT.

First: marriage is an outdated and now basically useless institution that probably should be done away with entirely, at least in terms of government recognition and subsidization. The inclusion of homosexuals would not do any harm, and as I said, would in fact be of benefit to society.

God's opinion is not fact to anyone but god. Putting it in caps doesn't change that.

[Maryjane]

Homosexuality being a sin is not my opinion. It is God's and that makes it truth. Homosexuality is a sin. That is a FACT.

It IS your opinion, otherwise you would be more open to understanding the REAL argument here. American citizens being denied their Civil Rights based on their sexuality because of narrow minded individuals.

Your God argument is not relevant in this debate.

I have a few questions for you Tex:

1) Do you actually know any homosexuals and interact with them on a personal basis? I'm curious if your assumptions are based on second hand information or from real life experiences.

2) If your son or daughter came to you and told you they were gay, what would your reaction be? (I should probablly make this a poll)

[Mozart1220]

Quote by: texasdave We can start to save the institution of marriage by not allowing homosexuals to give a dying institution the coup de grace. Mozart, Homosexuality being a sin is not my opinion. It is God's and that makes it truth. Homosexuality is a sin. That is a FACT.

So what if I don't believe your God exists? I need PROOF of your God's existance and PROOF that he actually hates Homosexuals before I start discriminating against them.

Now please explain to us all how allowing Gays to marry is going to harm YOUR relationship. Is it in so much trouble? Mine isn't.

You support state sanctioned bigotry, and that's all it is. I have asked many times in many places what HARM will allowing same sex couples to take care of each other, to visit each other in the hospital, to bequeath property to each other, to provide medical insurance for each other, to become a FAMILY.

No one seems to be able to answer. You reply with bigotry, and unprovable OPINION of what YOUR version of "God" wants.

You will have to do better.

I also noticed that you failed to answer most of my questions.

Should childless couples be allowed to marry?

[Mozart1220]

Quote by: texasdave We can start to save the institution of marriage by not allowing homosexuals to give a dying institution the coup de grace. Mozart, Homosexuality being a sin is not my opinion. It is God's and that makes it truth. Homosexuality is a sin. That is a FACT.

Oh yeah, the only thing about Homosexuality in the Bible is in Leviticus, where it also sanctions selling daughters into slavery, killing people for wearing two kinds of cloth, not allowing pork to be eaten, and not allowing two kinds of crop to be planted together.

How many of those "rules" do you consider "holy law"?

[Hmm]

Quote by: texasdave We can start to save the institution of marriage by not allowing homosexuals to give a dying institution the coup de grace. Mozart, Homosexuality being a sin is not my opinion. It is God's and that makes it truth. Homosexuality is a sin. That is a FACT.

Since when have our laws been based off of the Christian god?

[texasdave]

First off, God does not hate homosexuals and neither do I. God hates the sin of homosexuality because it kills His children and separates them from Him.
Maryjane (disgusting name by the way),
Here is your answer. I used to know many homosexuals. I am a former fornicator. I haven't always been a Christian. I was a man that girl's mothers used to warn them about. Not a rapist or anything illegal but I was a sexual predator. A huge sinner. I ran around with a lot of other sexual sinners. I am 46 and was in my 20's during the 80's. When homosexuals were really coming out of the closet. Most of my gay friends are dead. Dead from hepatitis and AIDS. Some from drug abuse. The lifestyle is deady. I don't like the fact that these wonderful human beings are dead and I cheered them on during that time. I was wrong. They are dead. That is tough for me to live with. If you love gays, love them enough to tell them the truth. I tell them about the destructiveness of their behavior because I'd rather see them live.
As for the second question if one of my kids claimed to be homosexual? My sister-in-law is. We pray for her. We tell her the truth even when it offends her. We love her but we do not approve of her lifestyle. I would do the same for one of my kids.

[Maryjane]

(forgive me for going off topic here people)

Tex,
Thank you for answering my questions. Your replies tell me a lot about you and it's pretty much as I expected.

I used to know many homosexuals. I am a former fornicator. I haven't always been a Christian. I was a man that girl's mothers used to warn them about. Not a rapist or anything illegal but I was a sexual predator. A huge sinner. I ran around with a lot of other sexual sinners.

You see, you are I are the exact same age which means we both grew up in the same social atmosphere. Sex, drugs, and rock and roll, eh? Just like you, I have friends that died from AIDS and those who have ruined their lives with drugs. I've drawn from those past experiences as a navigation tool for my life. Unlike you, I don't use them as a moral compass against someone because I disagree with their lifestyle.

We tell her the truth even when it offends her. We love her but we do not approve of her lifestyle. I would do the same for one of my kids.

I use those experiences to educate my sons on the lessons of safe sex. I feel if you love someone and really care about them, you never want to alienate them. Respect is a two way street. So you don't mind offending her because you think your way is the ONLY way. Sigh... Don't be surprised when she cuts you out of her life. That's like death you know?


I'll tell you a little secret Tex, you can model the life you think someone should live, if they respect you and your opinion they will want to emulate you. You can't tell people how to live their lives. They have to experience it and learn for themselves.

That is tough for me to live with.

BTW, What is it with fundamental Christians???? I am forever amazed at their self loathing. Tex, religion is NOT therapy. Just because you can't deal with reality, don't assume the rest of us can't. We don't need to be told we are sinners so you can feel good about yourself. You talk about your friends deaths as the reason you turned to god, my husband is dead and I am raising three kids without him. I didn't have to rush to a god or read scripture to accept that fact. I looked inside myself and drew from my past experiences for strength.

And what, pray tell, is wrong with my name? FWIW, it IS my real name. My friends call me Mj. I was named Mary after my grandmother (who at 99 was the eldest member at her church) and Jane after my mother. I'm assuming you thought it was a reference to marijuana? Sorry bud, but that's OK, I'll forgive you.


Bottom line, you will get more out of therapy or doing some soul searching than you will a bible. But that's your choice to make. Don't push your reality on others. If you really loved gays you would understand the whole purpose to this thread.

You know what's really funny?

If you love gays, love them enough to tell them the truth.

It's an inside joke. I didn't think would come so soon.
(bolding mine)

[Mozart1220]

Quote by: rcne The 'marriage' that was pushed upon the masses is where the gays lost. If they would have not been so embolden to think that they could force their 'rightness' upon the rest of us I think a chance of 'civil unions' was possible. Now they claim their rights have been violated - gay union was never a right - so we are taking a right that was never there away? Move to Canada - they want you - if you must be married. Stay here and fight for civil unions - which was the major scope of the argument anyway.

Are hetrosexual marraiges a "right"? If they are, and no exeption for same sex marraige was ever in any lawbook until now, then a "right" HAS been denied them.

Again I say, it's state sanctioned bigotry and discrimination.


Still waiting for Texasdave to answer my questions.

How does same sex marraige threaten hetro marraiges?

Should hetro couples that do not plan to have children be allowed to marry and why?

Can you give us some proof of your God's existance, and proof that He cares about homosexuality.

What about all the things in Leviticus I mentioned?

[Mozart1220]

Quote by: texasdave First off, God does not hate homosexuals and neither do I. God hates the sin of homosexuality because it kills His children and separates them from Him. Maryjane (disgusting name by the way), Here is your answer. I used to know many homosexuals. I am a former fornicator. I haven't always been a Christian. I was a man that girl's mothers used to warn them about. Not a rapist or anything illegal but I was a sexual predator. A huge sinner. I ran around with a lot of other sexual sinners. I am 46 and was in my 20's during the 80's. When homosexuals were really coming out of the closet. Most of my gay friends are dead. Dead from hepatitis and AIDS. Some from drug abuse. The lifestyle is deady. I don't like the fact that these wonderful human beings are dead and I cheered them on during that time. I was wrong. They are dead. That is tough for me to live with. If you love gays, love them enough to tell them the truth. I tell them about the destructiveness of their behavior because I'd rather see them live. As for the second question if one of my kids claimed to be homosexual? My sister-in-law is. We pray for her. We tell her the truth even when it offends her. We love her but we do not approve of her lifestyle. I would do the same for one of my kids.

"Fornicator " huh? You are in WAY too deep sir.

[texasdave]

Maryjane,
Which person loves you more? The one who tells you to wear a setbelt when you drive too fast or the one who tells you to wear a seatbelt AND drive slower? If the behavior is the main risk then it is the source of the danger and it is the behavior that must be changed. Wearing a seat belt or a condom may make it safer to do dangerous behavior but it does not mitigate the risk until the behavior is changed. Slow down when you drive and stay away from homosexual behavior. THAT is loving someone.

[texasdave]

Mozart,
Homosexual marriage further weakens the institution itself and that indirectly harms heterosexual marriages. It is an indirect harm but harm nonetheless.