Homosexual Marriage

[Dirty Name]

But from all the evidence I’ve seen so far Gay marriage would overall be a good thing for society.

Post your argument then. Take a position and let me have the same shot at your argument - with all it's imperfections, as you've had at mine over the past 200 pages.

You claim you've pointed out "technical imperfections" in my argument. I disagree. But I'd love to read what you consider to be a laundry list of the flaws in my argument. PLEASE DO SO. But then just give me the chance to compare and contrast my argument with yours.

My position stands up to logical scrutiny, yours doesn't, and I could prove it if you'd simply articulate something.

But from all the evidence I’ve seen so far Gay marriage would overall be a good thing for society.

Again, how do you propose to deal with the issue of incest and multi-partner unions? You have the enormous problem of crafting LAW around gay marriage that either discriminates against these people or lets them in the door. PLEASE ARTICLATE AN ARGUMENT so that we can examine just how you would deal with this teensy-tiny little flaw.

[Dirty Name]

most of the benefits to society of marriage are performed by gay couples so they should get the subsidy.

List them right now. I want to know how the general public benefits from a marriage of two men or two women.

[underbear1]

I'll also wager when the case of military queer survivor benefits goes before the Court, it'll be brought by a lesbian. They are much more prevelent in the Armed Forces, and some have considerable rank even under Don't Ask Don't tell. They are more likely to be in a longterm relationship than gay men. They also will have the courage to bring the case, because straight women in the armed forces won't sneak up on them while sleeping in the barracks, and club them to death with a baseball bat.As Barry Winchell sadly discovered at his brutal death
"Pfc. Barry Winchell, 21, was beaten to death by fellow servicemembers while sleeping in his cot on July 5, 1999 at Fort Campbell, Ky. His Army colleagues thought (correctly) that he was gay, so they killed him."
But if it makes you feel exonerated, it's not unlikely that lesbian couple will have a garden with corn and soy beans, those womyn grow much more practical gardens, than the showy flowers we gay men grow.

[Dirty Name]

Start a new thread on gays in the military. I'll join it and we can discuss that there.

[underbear1]

You'd like to not discuss that outcome, that a case in the military will usher in marriage equality, but as you said earlier the bar has been raised, so dispute my argument if you can!

[Dirty Name]

Sorry, I missed the link between gays in the military and gay marriage.

[underbear1]

Quote by: Dirty Name Sorry, I missed the link between gays in the military and gay marriage.

I realize it would be an undo burden to flip back one page to see the argument so here's the link
Homosexual Marriage

[Dirty Name]

Uh, except the military has to accept homosexuals in the first place before they can let them get married.

Like I said, start a thread on gays in the military, so we can debate that issue first.

[shield772]

Quote by: Dirty Name Post your argument then. Take a position and let me have the same shot at your argument - with all it's imperfections, as you've had at mine over the past 200 pages. You claim you've pointed out "technical imperfections" in my argument. I disagree. But I'd love to read what you consider to be a laundry list of the flaws in my argument. PLEASE DO SO. But then just give me the chance to compare and contrast my argument with yours. My position stands up to logical scrutiny, yours doesn't, and I could prove it if you'd simply articulate something. Again, how do you propose to deal with the issue of incest and multi-partner unions? You have the enormous problem of crafting LAW around gay marriage that either discriminates against these people or lets them in the door. PLEASE ARTICLATE AN ARGUMENT so that we can examine just how you would deal with this teensy-tiny little flaw.

Well for starters Incest and Muti-Partner unions are already accepted as Illegal, how do you make the jump from same sex marriage to those things, oh wait I know your a bigot and will use any hysterical and outlandish arguement to justify your position, you can scare people with "IF YOU LET GAYS MARRY WE HAVE TO LET INCEST AND MULTI-PARTNER MARRIAGES ALSO" bullshit. I call Bullshit ever played that game?

[Roberto]

Quote by: Dirty Name List them right now. I want to know how the general public benefits from a marriage of two men or two women.

I want to know how the general public benefits from a marriage of a man and a woman.

[underbear1]

Accept them in the military??? If we are in Iraq 2 years from now, they'll be BEGGING FOR US TO JOIN!
As soon as survivor benefits are awarded to one openly lesbian soldier's lover, the game is over, and marriage recognition will follow within a year! btw. this won't be some stupid state by state fight, it will be the Supreme Court ruling NATIONWIDE!

[Athena]

Excuse me, what does freedom and liberty mean to you guys?

Who is the best "authority" over our lives?

One of the sharpist differences between Sparta and Athens, was this issue of privacy and authority. In Sparta no one had privacy and the state is supreme authoirty over everyone.
In Athens privacy was almost sacred and the individual was fully responsible for himself.

The US was once the Athens of the modern world, and Germany was the Sparta of the modern world. Since WWII the US has imitated that Germany in every signicant way, and today privacy is as meaningless as individual liberty and power.

Those of you who think they are standing on the higher moral ground and have the right to impose yourselves on everyone, would have done well in the Germany we defended our democracy against. Fightening isn't it, how Christianity can bring us to a police state and how successfully Christians have advanced the idea that it was Christainity that made the US a democracy. Christians would have us believe all our blessings are because of them, and we return to the conditions that began the American Revolution in the first place. Who is the best "authority" over your life? Until God himself, speaks for himself on national TV, He is not a choice. We should not confused books written thousands of years ago with God's authority, because God did not have a typewriter and publishing company, and did not persoal write and publish holy books.

[italiangm]

Quote by: underbear1 Accept them in the military??? If we are in Iraq 2 years from now, they'll be BEGGING FOR US TO JOIN! As soon as survivor benefits are awarded to one openly lesbian soldier's lover, the game is over, and marriage recognition will follow within a year! btw. this won't be some stupid state by state fight, it will be the Supreme Court ruling NATIONWIDE!

Under DADT, openly gay servicemembers are not allowed to serve. Do you anticipate DADT will be eliminated from the DoD's policies any time soon? Because it will have to for your argument to succeed.

[underbear1]

Quote by: italiangm Quote by: underbear1 Accept them in the military??? If we are in Iraq 2 years from now, they'll be BEGGING FOR US TO JOIN! As soon as survivor benefits are awarded to one openly lesbian soldier's lover, the game is over, and marriage recognition will follow within a year! btw. this won't be some stupid state by state fight, it will be the Supreme Court ruling NATIONWIDE! Under DADT, openly gay servicemembers are not allowed to serve. Do you anticipate DADT will be eliminated from the DoD's policies any time soon? Because it will have to for your argument to succeed.

Yes DADT will be dropped if we remain in Iraq for 2 years, they'll need us too much to refuse.
But we will DEMAND our partner receive survivor benefits if we are killed in action, and they'll agree.

[RickSp]

Quote by: shield772 Well for starters Incest and Muti-Partner unions are already accepted as Illegal, how do you make the jump from same sex marriage to those things, oh wait I know your a bigot and will use any hysterical and outlandish arguement to justify your position, you can scare people with "IF YOU LET GAYS MARRY WE HAVE TO LET INCEST AND MULTI-PARTNER MARRIAGES ALSO" bullshit. I call Bullshit ever played that game?

My favorite nonsense by homophobes is the claim that we will all start marrying our pets if we grant gay folks equal rights. Then again, an English woman married a dolphin recently. Wonder how the gay bashers will manage to blame that one on gay folks.

[italiangm]

Quote by: Athena Excuse me, what does freedom and liberty mean to you guys?

A few of us have tried to explain this point-of-view. However, a number of folks are under the mistaken impression that opposite-sex marriage is somehow favored under the constitution while same-sex marriage is not.

As most are aware, the constitution does not specifically address marriage at all but is pretty specific about equality. And while some folk believe opposite-sex marriage is more beneficial than same-sex marriage, we go beyond that assertion to the root of the issue: The state has no compelling interest to restrict marriage to opposite-sex partners.

None of the naysayers to date have been able to provide a compelling interest to restrict marriage to opposite-sex partners.

[italiangm]

Quote by: underbear1 Yes DADT will be dropped if we remain in Iraq for 2 years, they'll need us too much to refuse. But we will DEMAND our partner receive survivor benefits if we are killed in action, and they'll agree.

I honestly don't see this happening for the reasons you state.

[underbear1]

How many rotations do they seriously think an all vollunteer force will be willing to serve in an insane war zone where at any moment the road blows up, they are on at least third rotations now. Think anyone in their right mind will go for 5 or 6 rotations?
They also are not resigning up needed staff in linguists, medical specialists, Captains and other officers.If politicians are forced to pick between a draft or dropping DADT, they'll go for the least resistance and the fewest families effected, dropping DADT.Even if a draft is reinstated, they may have to drop DADT, or every queer will say ......uh........no thanks!
America has changed drasticly for gays/lesbians since Viet Nam when being openly gay was career suicide, now we can work for any Fortune 500 corporation with Domestic Partnership benefits too. We can earn on our own though online investing, and there are countries willing to grant us assylum and equal rights in the meantime. So who has the upperhand?

[italiangm]

Or, the president can propose a plan of conscription and congress might approve, while keeping DADT in place.

[Capitalist Pig]

Quote by: shield772 Well for starters Incest and Muti-Partner unions are already accepted as Illegal, how do you make the jump from same sex marriage to those things, oh wait I know your a bigot and will use any hysterical and outlandish arguement to justify your position, you can scare people with "IF YOU LET GAYS MARRY WE HAVE TO LET INCEST AND MULTI-PARTNER MARRIAGES ALSO" bullshit. I call Bullshit ever played that game?

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