Pay back the black man?

[FreedomFirst]

If you're human, you're African, because if you trace it back far enough, it's where we all came from.

If society is not color blind, it's racist. If we gave reparations we'd end up in an ugly downward spiral paying back everybody for everything.

[james?]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Stigmata66,)
Geuss what? ALL OF MY ANCESTORS CAME OVER BEFORE THE FIRST WORLD WAR, WE NEVER OWNED SLAVES OR WERE HERE WHEN SLAVERY WAS STILL AROUND.Tell why should I have to pay for something I never did...??? Oh because I'm white? Would whites just pay back these reparations to the blacks? How conveinient; how racist.Let us not forget about the free blacks that owned slaves also. So I geuss well have to do some crazy digging through family trees to find out what black owned slaves so they can pay retributions to their fellow blacks.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
NORMLperson:
American history books dont teach you about White slave owners raping black females to produce more slaves, nor do we learn about how the government purposfully took native American children away from their parents and tribes and placed them in schools with children from other tribes so that they wouldn't speak their native tounge? In order to make ammends for history, it begins with the truth. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

WRONG! I actually learned a good bit of this in my AP US History class this year. Black History month is a sham, there is no white history month or asian history. Fredrick Douglas and Martin Luhter King Jr. have their places in history books right next to Abe Lincoln and George Washington. Their is no need for separate months for separate races. If you want to erase "the divisions of hatred that have resulted from years of suffering among minority groups" then you should start by shooting yourself. You're the person you divides us and takes our months allocates them to waht race gets what history month. You're the kind of person who supports blatantly racist programs like Affirmative Action. This is America EVERYONE IS EQUAL, no favoritism, and no walls. You're building walls of segregation and claiming that they are getting we owe them and I'm try to tear these walls down!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Exactly. All of it. They taught us all about slavery, and all about great black Americans. We even watched Roots in class.

[PeterAngelo]

The plantation owners were freed from having to totally support their workers.

They turned them into wage-slaves like all Americans workers now are - Black, White, Brown, Yellow, Red or Green.

As far as reparations are concerned the legal channel that has validity is based on the Supreme Court case of Plessey v. Ferguson.

Since the government sanctioned racism, murder, and the associated mayhem and social destruction it brings, could be sued for damages.

It would work.

It should work.

It would free us all.

It would also - hopefully - let the clueless whites in this country realize they are being played the same as Blacks.

[sguy]

While I understand that black Americans have had it tough, I believe that the time for complaining has been expired for forty years in the south and 150 years elsewhere. If there are immigrants who cannot speak a word of English, yet make it, then the Afican American people should do so as well.

Apologists for the blacks in America not reaching their potential is one reason why people from those communities do not reach their potential. Race quotas, reparations all divide instead of reconcile. By focusing on an individual race and helping that race, the tensions which always fester in the community will explode and instead of aiding black Americans, it hurts them by singling them out to be helped.

[Matthew Cromer]

I like the idea. Some of my ancestors were Cherokee Indians and I want someone to pay me off for what was done to them 100+ years ago.

[Old Blue Light]

The only solution to this lobbying for reparations is to ignore it. The American black people are more free than their African cousins. It would be unconstitutional to continue to pay for wrongs done 150 years ago. We(the living white people) have never owned slaves and there are many immigrants who came here after the fact who would have to take up the burden. No, our country has been guilty of enslaving a race. We cannot erase this from our heritage, ever. But because of that fact we are not obligated to pay for it indefinitely. It would not and cannot ever be considered.

Our best answer to this dilemna that has haunted our nation since its founding; that of racial equality, is to try to stop repaying the past. One of the concepts America was built on was that you are an individual persons. If my father were to die right now with a huge debt amassed, the debt would die with him rather than be inherited to me. Surely what he had would be used to pay off as much of the debt as possible, but I would not spend the remainder of my life paying for his actions. In the same sense we need to realize that I am not my ancestor, and owe nothing to blacks as a minority. Most of the family immigrated into the Northeast well before the Civil War, and we have actually traced two ancestors as soldiers within the federal army. So in a sense my ancestors helped them out. But just as I don't expect anyone else to pay for their ancestor's crimes, I expect to not have to pay for my ancestor's crimes. So I would argue that this aspect of American law informs me that I do not have to pay reparations to people who's ancestors were harmed by my ancestors.

In regards to Black History month, my high school respects it. The school commons and such are decorated with stories of Black leaders and figures of the Civil Rights movement. Our history classes go through the chapter on the Civil Rights movement, and some classes watched Roots. Personally, I feel that Black History Month should be renamed into Civil Rights History Month, or something of the sort. It should focus on all the great civil rights achievements, not just one race's. Twenty-eight days in the month should be plenty to cover a variety of cultures. For example you could have a day to celebrate the Chinese presence in America, and their struggle to attain equal rights which they weren't initially given. Another day might celebrate Japanese culture, and the hardships they endured during World War 2 for mere fear. Other possible days might be European History, celebrating the European influence in America. Then of course a Black History day, celebrating their history. This idea would give all cultures their due, as almost all have influenced America's development.


P.S. I find it so annoying when they play rap on the day before mid-winter break to celebrate Black History month. If they do that, they should also have days where they sit there playing Nirvana, Beatles, or other major contemporary rock artists.

[NORMLperson]

I'll be damned if society becomes so apathetic that death erases the history of a people, because to respect life is to respect a life less fortunate than yours, whether it was in the past or now. We take for granted how the US came to be and never question how the aura of individualism and segregation felt across the country. It wasn't even 40 years ago, long enough for some us or our parents to remember. Yet we also forget that hate is learned, and with that, we must also remember that everymind or belief was not changed throught he civil rights movement. The hatred and fear of difference exists still. And I'm not pointing my finger at one side, but at both.

BTW, that's nice that AP classes teach history and show the movie Roots. Too bad that lower division history classes don't teach it.

[bugsbunny04]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Anarchist Patriot,)


Pay back the black man?
Discuss

<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

The fact that I agree with most of the views expressed in The South Was Right not withstanding, I don't think we should.

Ponder: I refuse to believe we should for the same reason that, though I believe the south was right, that is not a big issue for me either. My Viking ancestors came here just over a 1000 years ago, then left before black slaves ever arrived. The family that I descend directly from, never set foot on U.S. Soil until the 20th century, after slavery had been abolished for many years.

Ponder: I have actually observed some blacks talking about how great it is that they get all sorts of free sh*t because, and I quote "cuz we be niggaz." Aside from the fact that the form of "is" does not agree with number and person, and aside from the mis-pronounced spanish adjective, I have a problem with this.

Even if my ancestors were from around here, every man is responsible for his own destiny, in a capatalist society like ours. Someones great, great grand father being enslaved by my great grand father has nothing whatsoever to do with why he is addicted to crack. It has nothing to do with him not being able to get a decent job. He can't get a decent job because he dropped or got kicked out of school and speaks in a different language even though he was f*cking born here.

Someone being white gives them no right to enslave a black person. It goes both ways: Just because you are black and I'm white does not entitle you to treat my wallet like the coffers of some charitable organization, and If you do, you will meet my Mossberg 500, up close and in person.

Jesse Jackson and the whole Black Power crowd are just as entitled as the Klan:

to KISS MY ASS!!!

PS: All men are created equal, not all men act like it.

[FreedomFirst]

We don't learn a lot of things. For instance, we don't learn about how slaves were more free than people are today. Want to learn plenty about slavery that you probably never thought about? Here's an amazing article:

Jefferson's Slaves

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (NORMLperson,)
I'll be damned if society becomes so apathetic that death erases the history of a people, because to respect life is to respect a life less fortunate than yours, whether it was in the past or now. We take for granted how the US came to be and never question how the aura of individualism and segregation felt across the country. It wasn't even 40 years ago, long enough for some us or our parents to remember. Yet we also forget that hate is learned, and with that, we must also remember that everymind or belief was not changed throught he civil rights movement. The hatred and fear of difference exists still. And I'm not pointing my finger at one side, but at both.

BTW, that's nice that AP classes teach history and show the movie Roots. Too bad that lower division history classes don't teach it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

[AnonT]

Hey bugsbunny? Thanks for making the anti-reparations crowd look like a bunch of racist morons. God damn you.

Anyway, I did learn about black history, first in regular history classes and then in the black history class I took my senior year of high school. However, I disagree with the idea of black history month (largely because my black history teacher convinced me) because, as long as black history was made during all 12 months of the year, there's no reason to limit teaching it to only one months. African and African-American history should be included in the curriculum where they fit, just like European, Asian, and American history.

I also learned that blacks invented a process for smelting iron into steel more than 1,000 years before Europeans, travelled to the Americas long before Columbus (the trips they know of for sure were after the Vikings, but they had the technology to travel here since before the Vikings did, so it's hard to tell who came first), once had more schools in certain major cities in Africa than in the entire continent of Europe, created one of the planet's earliest civilizations, and were responsible for more inventions than I even know about as well as a variety of contributions to philosophy (did you know that many of the ancient Greek philosophers studied in Africa, and that the philosophies credited to them are extremely similar to an ancient African school of philosophy?) and religion.

In light of that history, and looking at how Africa stands right now and how the black community in America stands relative to the white community, something obviously happened, something that may need reparations. Whether that something was entirely the fault of slavery, Jim Crow laws, and imperialism, or whether other, current factors exist is open to some discussion.

Ok, so first let's look at American blacks. The last segregation laws ended about 40 years ago. There's been an entire new generation (closer to two by now) since then, with affirmative action laws to "make up for" segregation and any lingering damage from slavery. While blacks have moved up the social scale, they're moving up very slowly, even more slowly than immigrants from much poorer backgrounds than theirs. Blacks do more poorly in school, are more likely to commit crimes, are more likely to do drugs, are less likely to graduate from college, and are less likely to get a job, among other things. While you can say the first three things cause the last two, something is still causing the first three things.

Now, figure that even Al Sharpton admits that reparations don't have to be in the form of a check - a massive change in attitude, a change in the laws, etc. could be at least as worthwhile if not more so than a monetary handout (the main problem all of you had). Then figure that a monetary handout will be seen by many blacks as "free money" - kind of the same way that most Americans view their tax returns. They don't view it as earned income, even if it really is (especially in the case of a tax return). Most people spend their tax return within a week, and there's no reason to expect African Americans to do anything different with their reparations checks.

The form of reparations that would have the largest positive effect on black Americans, in my opinion, is a change in laws that harm the black community.

If drugs were legalized, they would be sold in pharmacies and drug stores, rather than out of drug dealers' pockets - which would reduce gang violence, make black communities safer, free hundreds of thousands of blacks from jail (considering that even though 70% of drug users are white, while only 30% of people in jail for drug use are white, we're talking about freeing a lot of oppressed minorities), and force former gang members to find real jobs and begin supporting their communities, rather than detracting from them.

If schools taught with a more individualistic approach (ie. teaching each student at their own pace, rather than teaching them as a lumped up group), those blacks who did want to succeed in school would have an easier time doing so, rather than being held back by apathetic classmates. During my fourth grade year, our teacher made an effort to teach each student on as individual a basis as he could - and even with an overcrowded class where each student spent more than 2/3 of his classtime messing around, every single student in that class was where they needed to be education-wise by the end of the year, because each and every one of them was taught in the way they needed to be taught at a pace they could learn at. Most of us even learned a few years ahead - I didn't learn a single thing in 5-7th grade because I had learned it all in 4th. And this was in a poor neighborhood in Las Vegas, where there were as many blacks as whites and more hispanics than anything else. If schools teach at a pace they're willing and able to learn at, they end up encouraging students to learn by rewarding them for learning by letting them move on to more interesting things. This would at least help solve the problems inner city schools have.

If affirmative action were ended, more blacks would graduate from college. As I sort of pointed out in the last paragraph, everyone has their own ability for learning. Teaching someone at the wrong pace - whether it be faster or slower - will only slow them down. Affirmative action ends up sending blacks to schools that they're unable to handle.
Now, please don't think I'm saying that blacks are incapable of meeting the same level of achievement as whites. There are some blacks that are fully capable of getting to Harvard, Yale, or Princeton and succeeding. There are blacks who are capable of becoming doctors, lawyers, or even rocket scientists - but not all blacks, or whites, or any other human race is capable of becoming a rocket scientist. Trying to take someone who would make a perfectly good computer programmer and turning them into a rocket scientist is likely to result in one less computer programmer and no extra rocket scientists. Taking a good potential journalist and trying to make a lawyer out of him will lose you a journalist without actually giving you any more lawyers.
It's too bad we can't do something to lose us a few lawyers! But, anyway....
Because of this, it's no surprise that Universities that use affirmative action in their admissions policies actually have lower rates of minority graduation than Universities that don't. States that use alternative programs that end up benefitting minorities - like the systems in Texas, Florida, and California where admissions are boosted by class ranking (even inner city schools have a valedictorian) - end up with minority admissions equal to those under affirmative action, but higher graduation rates, because they still only admit students whose work ethics are up to the tasks in college.

So, if reparations means that we have to change our society in a way that makes blacks achieve equality much faster than they otherwise would, then legalizing drugs, ending affirmative action, and making education more individualistic should be the first three steps towards repairing the damage between the races here in America.

As for Africa, since foreign aid is used more often for political influence than for actually helping people (multiple leaders of both American and UN aid agencies have admitted this, and the fact that more than 1/3 of our foreign aid budget goes to relatively wealthy countries like Egypt and Israel show this), foreign aid is a tool of imperialism. Just look at France's relation to most of their former colonies; French politicians promise foreign aid to Africa, then the leaders of the countries they promise aid to make campaign contributions to the politicians promising the most aid. Once the politicians are elected, they actually give the aid based on how much the dictators they give it to have sent back. Ending foreign aid would end modern imperialism, which would then give us the ability to pay reparations.

Anyway, for those of you who are adamantly against reparations, I recommend you take the example I used in my posts. Those of you who said "No you don't deserve reparations, stop taking all my damn money!" basically made anyone who favors reparations say "I disagree with you to the point that I don't value your opinions at all." I basically said, "I agree that there's a problem, but here's why your solution won't work, and why my [Libertarian] solution will," which makes them say, "Okay, so we agree on something, so maybe I'll listen to the rest of what you have to say." The goal here ought to be to convince others through rational discussion, instead of just pissing them the hell off.

[Leopard]

good post sir! will save for later use

[james?]

Can anyone who supports reperations tell me right now that the average black man is not capable of finding a job to support himself? Or that our society is not capable of finding him a job or hiring him to one?

If you are saying that blacks can't support themselves because of hostility towards their race from people that have an influence on the quality of their life, then how the hell is paying them off solving anything?

All it does is skip the problem with this generation. In playing one black man, you relieve just his problems, not his race's, because the supposed problem of the black race is not one man's lack of a job, education, or money, but hostility that creates these deprivations. Paying someone just inflames the root of the problem, and increases hostility towards blacks.

And it doesn't even permanently solve the material problems. What happens when all the blacks we paid grow old and die, what do we do with future black generations? Do we pay them off, too, and honor all blacks with permanent superiority? Or do we say the debt is amended and let them back to the same "problem" we have today.

To solve a problem you have to look at it from it core. Giving reperations is going to do nothing to relieve society of its supposed rampant hostility. Why don't we do our best to try and prevent racism and discrimination, instead of trying to hide it from ourselves with a check?

[m5lange1]

Personally I want to see some of that vast hoard of Mongolian cash being doled out in reparation. Not just for Gungus and all the other little Kahn's but if you trace Atilla back far enough you come to ......

Thats right... Mongolia.

They kept sweeping across both Europe and Asia and even made China build the biggest, baddest, yard fence in history.

PAYBACK TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ArtyP]

I am not in favor of repartions. I think this story I heard about Colin Powell explains why very well:

There is told about Colin Powell a story that may or may not be true, that might have happened in a bar in Harlem in early 2000. Colin was alone and pondering on going back to the Gulf and having to kick Saddams butt in the sand for a second time, having a quiet beer and reflecting on the guys he'd left behind in Gulf I. An old drunk black guy in the corner shouts to Colin, "Hey you're in the gummint. Whens we getting these reparations? You must know. You must be getting a bundle. Those villains, they dragged our grandaddies over from Africa in chains!"

Colin put down his beer and looked at the man sadly, he wiped the foam from his mouth. And then he looked to the wall where there was a huge map of the homeland in Africa and he pointed. First he pointed at Ethiopia, and he said "Are my wife and my children starving to death. Their bellies swollen like balloons?... No. Well there's my reparations." Then he pointed to South Africa and he said "Has my wife just been raped by a drunken maniac with AIDS?... No. Well there's my reparations" Then he pointed to Somalia and he said "Have I just been swept up in a crazed Commie mob and dragged a poor dead US farmboy through the filthy streets?... No. Well there's my reparations."

Finally he pointed to Rwanda and he said "Has some genocidal army just swept through my home and hacked me, my wife and family into chunks with a machete?... No. Well there's my reparations. And those are all the reparations I'll ever need". And with that he quietly paid his bill, he put on his coat, and he walked out the door*.

* NB I have also heard this story told about Eddie Murphy.

[Stigmata66]

bugsbunny04's post wasn't racist, it's the truth whether you would like to accept it or not. Unbonics, a sad pitiful chopped up version of english which is now being glorified by BET2 err...MTV and teenagers of all races are now using. The problem with the american black community of today is their own fault, not 40 years ago or 100 but now. No one made them join gang or do any of that stupid shit. Once they can adress their community's problems then maybe their won't be so many complaints of the "oppressive white man" or the "blue eyed devil".

[AnonT]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (james?,)
All it does is skip the problem with this generation. In playing one black man, you relieve just his problems, not his race's, because the supposed problem of the black race is not one man's lack of a job, education, or money, but hostility that creates these deprivations. Paying someone just inflames the root of the problem, and increases hostility towards blacks. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

As I mentioned in my post, many of the supporters of reparations would like something other than financial reparations. I oppose financial reparations, too, but I support the idea that we can do something that will change the plight of poor blacks in this country. My solution happens to be pretty libertarian in nature. Could you accept it?

[PeterAngelo]

This, "my family never owned slaves", is a cop out.

We are a nation represented by our government and its laws - all of us.

The "systemic"- authorized - approved by the Supreme Court - JIm Crow laws that hels the southern Blacks as unofficial slaves was more barbaric - and hypocritical - than actual slavery.

The government of the Unioted States is responsible for the unfathomable terror and loss to that race.

The Civil War hostilities ended in 1864 - not the Civil War.

We are closer now to a new outbreak of hostilities now than ever since 1864 - and not over race - over SAME SEX MARRIAGE.

It is States rights versus Federal Authority that is the civil war - and it is heating up like we havben't seen since Roosevelt.

Reparations? - the hate you all feel - and the lies you all tell yourselves - demand reparations.

[Stigmata66]

YOU ARE AN IDIOT! MY FAMILY NEVER OWNED SLAVES! WE CAME HERE BEFORE THE FIRST WORLD WAR! WE NEVER OWNED SLAVES AND WE NEVER HAVE LIVED IN THE SOUTH!

[AnonT]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Stigmata66,)
YOU ARE AN IDIOT! MY FAMILY NEVER OWNED SLAVES! WE CAME HERE BEFORE THE FIRST WORLD WAR! WE NEVER OWNED SLAVES AND WE NEVER HAVE LIVED IN THE SOUTH!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

A: Slavery happened before the first world war. Unless by "before" you meant "right before", like "my great grandparents stepped off the ship the day before the Lucitania went down", that doesn't preclude them from having been slave owners.
B: Slavery happened in other parts of the US than the South, as did discrimination.

Not that either of those means you should pay for someone else's crimes.

But, anyway, look at it this way: My family came here after the Civil War ended. We never owned slaves. We weren't responsible for Jim Crow laws. Not only were we not responsible, my ancestors tried to fight them. One of my ancestors on my mother's side was one of the founders of Oakland, California - one of a few cities at the time that didn't have segregated schools, and the town founders - including my ancestor - fought to keep the schools integrated and tried to prevent discrimination. Both of my parents marched in protests during the civil rights movement. So, while I really can't be said to owe blacks anything, honoring my family's legacy means I want to do something that will ease racial tensions and help blacks to achieve at the rates they've historically shown themselves to be capable of - rather than the abysmally poor rates they're achieving at now.

I don't think monetary reparations will cover it. I do think policy reparations can help.