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Thread: WikiLeaks, Freedom of Information on Steroids

  1. #169
    Destroyer of Worlds minorwork's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: WithATwist View Post
    Well, what you're insinuating then, is profiling. Or can we say that the recruitment procedures of the US Army are questionable for a traitor to get through? You ARE talking about the army...not the first choice of our intelligentsia.
    Personnel departments everywhere deal with people not machines. Failures are inevitable.
    Besides, the motives for treason are varied and individual, ranging from idealism, to disenchantment, to opportunism. How do you calculate when someone will become disenchanted or disillusioned, and then what sort of actions they will or will not take when feeling that way?
    I find it perhaps more than a coincidence that the resistance to repealing 'don't ask don't tell' seems to have strengthened since Manning was arrested. Evidence of profiling?

    You're probably quite correct, "allow" is not the correct word. But the point is, he is 22 and we can't expect someone of that age to be making perfectly good decisions in each and every situation.
    I think you must expect them to make good decisions or defer them to their immediate superior. They are relied on to do just that. Manning ignored the chain of command.

    General Paul Tibbets was 30, his bombardier, Col. Thomas W. Ferebee was 26. Major General Charles W. Sweeney was 26 and his bombardier, Lt. Col. Kermit Beahan, turned 27 the day he released Fat Man over Nagasaki after the primary target, Kokura, was covered by clouds. He and Sweeney conferred with the weaponeer, Commander Frederick Ashworth, 33, and the three decided to attempt the secondary target, Nagasaki.

    With whom did Manning discuss the stealing and release of files? For sure, it seems, he trusted Adrian Lamo. Lamo betrayed the trust Manning had in him.

    Such arguments are spurious, and your link is based solely upon US military figures of losses of military personnel, not loss of life per se, but only the loss of US military life. This is a loaded (biased) analysis.
    When you proposed a counter factual I figured any response would be spurious, but it didn't stop me. I figure it won't stop you either.
    I can easily argue that had the US entered WWII earlier than it did, that the US military would have lost far greater numbers of personnel, than waiting to be geared-up for war, when they did enter. Had they entered earlier, would have been suicide, for America was not geared-up for war, had only remnants of equipment left-over from WWI, and industry and the workforce were only just starting recovery from the Great Depression.
    Agendas were not a secret that an inner member exposing them would have altered things. See? Spurious.
    As it was, they went into combat against a superior force, technologically, attempting to make-up ground along the way....Sherman tanks were antiquated, and no match for the German Tigers, for example. And if Hitler hadn't invaded Russia and gotten stuck in the winter outside Moscow, there would have been a very different war. We won by more good luck, than good management, and that luck was Hitler's poor management and grandiose ideas of fighting two main fronts. Had he left Russia alone, we would have quite probably been pounded into the sea.
    And if the rabbit hadn't stopped to take a shit the turtle would have lost.

    The point of this exercise was to identify the act of the inner member's exposure of Hitler's intentions as traitorous or heroic. Depends on which side you choose.

    I have this thought. I fear that Pfc Manning was dis-empowered and frustrated because of it. He became a target of manipulation as the hijacker pilots of 911, Scott Roeder who assassinated Dr. George Miller the abortion doctor, Maj. Nidal Hasan, the psychiatrist who killed 12 soldiers and a civilian at Fort Hood, and any other suicide bomber that is primed and aimed to destruction by a respected peer group promoting the idea of self-righteous martyrdom.

    Manning escapes, for the moment, the murder charges. But he is on the edge. His personality was ripe for manipulating if not by the densest of his immediate superiors, who have surely not been promoted, then by the ideals of those not in as trusted a position as he but similar in personality traits. Perhaps Assange himself.
    If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.

    When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.

  2. #170
    Certainty=Bad scholardude's Avatar
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    A selection of Ron Paul's recent remarks in congress:

    Number 1: Do the America People deserve know the truth regarding the ongoing wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen?

    Number 2: Could a larger question be how can an army private access so much secret information?

    Number 3: Why is the hostility mostly directed at Assange, the publisher, and not at our governments failure to protect classified information?

    Number 4: Are we getting our moneys worth of the 80 Billion dollars per year spent on intelligence gathering?

    Number 5: Which has resulted in the greatest number of deaths: lying us into war or Wikileaks revelations or the release of the Pentagon Papers?

    Number 6: If Assange can be convicted of a crime for publishing information that he did not steal, what does this say about the future of the first amendment and the independence of the internet?

    Number 7: Could it be that the real reason for the near universal attacks on Wikileaks is more about secretly maintaining a seriously flawed foreign policy of empire than it is about national security?

    Number 8: Is there not a huge difference between releasing secret information to help the enemy in a time of declared war, which is treason, and the releasing of information to expose our government lies that promote secret wars, death and corruption?

    Number 9: Was it not once considered patriotic to stand up to our government when it is wrong?
    The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.
    -- Bertrand Russell

  3. #171
    Volcanic Erupter
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    Question number six is the real issue, the rest is rhetorical subjectivity.

  4. #172
    Throbbing Member Nono's Avatar
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    I agree. That's the question. (Though I do like the tone of the other questions.)

    But what are you going to do in legislative terms? You can argue in this case that Assange --- whatever legal action against him is or isn't possible --- hasn't done any real harm to US vital interests. Indeed, it might be argued that he has performed a service by pointing out how effing leaky the set-up was. And in any case he's an Australian national, not American.

    But what if someone obtained information that really would be detrimental to national security if released? I think it's legitimate to draw the line somewhere. And if someone crosses it, presumably they should be prosecuted.

    Just throwing that out.
    "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything."
    -- Viscount Melbourne

  5. #173
    blasphemer grandpa's Avatar
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    "Wikileaks founder Julian Assange, the man behind the publication of more than a 250,000 classified U.S. diplomatic cables, could soon be facing spying charges in the U.S. related to the Espionage Act, Assange's lawyer said today.
    'Our position of course is that we don't believe it applies to Mr. Assange and that in any event he's entitled to First Amendment protection as publisher of Wikileaks and any prosecution under the Espionage Act would in my view be unconstitutional and puts at risk all media organizations in the U.S.,' Assange's attorney Jennifer Robinson told ABC News."
    Wikileaks Julian Assange: Lawyers Prepare for U.S. Espionage Indictment - ABC News
    Post by post, building his arguments by smashing a couple of theirs -- for America.

  6. #174
    its not AIDS kancer kid's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: grandpa View Post
    "Wikileaks founder Julian Assange, the man behind the publication of more than a 250,000 classified U.S. diplomatic cables, could soon be facing spying charges in the U.S. related to the Espionage Act, Assange's lawyer said today.
    'Our position of course is that we don't believe it applies to Mr. Assange and that in any event he's entitled to First Amendment protection as publisher of Wikileaks and any prosecution under the Espionage Act would in my view be unconstitutional and puts at risk all media organizations in the U.S.,' Assange's attorney Jennifer Robinson told ABC News."
    Wikileaks Julian Assange: Lawyers Prepare for U.S. Espionage Indictment - ABC News
    I really don't get it. Can someone explain this question I have?
    What is the difference between what Wikileaks has done, and what the NYT/Guardian are doing with the same information? They are both giving the information to US. Neither of them stole the information, they both just received it, or am I missing something?

  7. #175
    Throbbing Member Nono's Avatar
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    No, you're saying the same thing as Assange's defenders.
    By the way, this was the question 40 years ago when the "Pentagon Papers" were published.
    "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything."
    -- Viscount Melbourne

  8. #176
    Volcanic Erupter
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    Did anyone go to jail convicted for espionage due to the publication of those Pentagon Papers? So Assange won't be convicted of anything either. If anyone is a "spy" it would be the source who delivered to Wikileaks, but the leakage is probably anonymous, publishing it cannot be made criminal, certainly not after the fact.

    To prevent the harmful effects of sensitive data, I'd require publishers to check with the source of their source in cases where the document was marked in some specific way (stamped "secret" with whatever distinctive source marking).

  9. #177
    Volcanic Erupter
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    Why is the government focusing on punishing Assange, when they should be punishing themselves?
    "The place of the worst barbarism is that modern forest that makes use of us, this forest of chimneys and bayonets, machines and weapons, of strange inanimate beasts that feed on human flesh"

  10. #178
    Volcanic Erupter
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    You really think the government should focus on punishing itself? Would that be masochism? Is it a very enlightened perspective on deviant behaviour that causes you to advocate the government engage in it?

  11. #179
    Throbbing Member Nono's Avatar
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    Der Spiegel has just published an amusingly ironic article about the problem facing American would-be prosecutors of Assange. [my translation] "America's leading jurists are racking their brains over how water-tight charges could possibly be laid against Assange. (...) No request has yet been made for Assange's extradition."

    In the Land of the Free, how do you prosecute someone who just pisses you off?
    "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything."
    -- Viscount Melbourne

  12. #180
    Volcanic Erupter
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    I don't think an intelligent claim can be brought against him, he owes the government no special duty of confidentiality.

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