Does Society "Owe" Us?

[Ken Carman]

This is topic was started during the "Suicide Legality" thread. How much does Society owe us when we fall, when we're "down and out," when we're suicidal? Is Society, or are individuals, often responsible for the plight of such people? Is it pretty much up to the individual to get back up, or is it morally, ethically and in the best interest of all to help them back up; help set them on a better path?

To get a better idea where this all started before you comment please read this or go to Slant Left and look for the right "Inspection" box called "Does Society Owe Us"

Feel free to make comments either here, at Political Puzzle or Slant Left.

[Suburbanite]

It owes you what you put into it.

[Lava]

Ken if you reprint your article here I'll play :)

Lava

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by Lava, Ken if you reprint your article here I'll play :) Lava

It's pretty long, but here goes... but first, a comment...

"It owes you what you put into it."

Absolutely. The question might be rephrased then: "Does Society (or do individuals too) have a good record of paying such bills? Do we need a bill collector?

Now, on the article...


First of all, let me welcome the posters at Volconvo to this column. If you enjoy open ended discussion from a wide variety of viewpoints by all means, I recommend Volconvo.

I was bouncing around volconvo.com when I hit a thread called, "Suicide legality." As often happens during discussions another issue exploded into the thread when I typed this...

" ...although I don't believe everything is societies fault I think, in some cases and perhaps many, society should take on some of the responsibility for it. Rather than looking at that and improving how we treat, respect and value people, it's far easier to just label someone who killed themselves, or attempt to, as sick and selfish. I'm sure that contributes to why so many who have tried, try again, and again, and..."

One of the regular posters, Lava, responded...

"Among suicidal folk I often see blaming others for one's problems. Although that may be valid as an un empowered child, once we're adults its up to us to work out how to resolve problems and do so - its not someone else's responsibility. But a whole lot of adults just don't think that way, we still want others to change for our happiness, or to solve our problems."

I responded...

"While I believe those who attempt suicide absolutely need to resolve their own problems, I don't believe that those around them and society should get off so easy. If we view those who attempt suicide, and those who actually commit suicide, as totally isolated individuals, and believe what we say and how we treat people should have no affect on them, then I would agree. Of course, you're right, it isn't easy. But I believe sometimes society and individuals go out of their way to make it hard, especially on some people."

Lava responded...

"I believe we are basically cry babies at heart. When things go wrong we look for social comfort, and we look to others to solve them for us. That works well enough as a child, but in an adult world its not an effective problem solving strategy. The effective strategy is to look for solutions and put them into effect... to say, what's the point of all this whining, it's getting me nowhere, and its no fun, so time to shut up and try work out how to improve my lot."


The topic started to expand to the point where I felt the best way to continue the discussion was to use "Inspection" to explain myself. The question is, "How much are we responsible for our own failure or success in life? Is it always a matter of working hard, picking ourselves up by our own bootstraps, or do others have some responsibility for our hopelessness and failure?"


Does society "owe us?" Do other individuals "owe us?"

I would say mostly, "No," but a very significant amount of "Yes." My guess is Lava would disagree.

No survey or study could ever quantify the rightness or wrongness of these questions. How do you take a survey on the very subjective opinion, "We are all cry babies at heart?" You can't. So my proposal is simple. After this column, through Volconvo or Political Puzzle, we share our experiences, personal stories and observations that have made us come to our conclusions on this topic. I will probably write at least one more column on this topic in about two weeks; tell a few more of my stories and make observations about what we have achieved through the art of discussion.

But back to the questions....

Does society "owe us?" Do other individuals "owe us?"

Individuals owe us in the sense that as a civilized society there are civilized ways to act and to treat each other. Every time we step over that line we risk destroying the hopes and dreams of others, and encourage others to do it to us. A fellow employee, for personal gain or sadistic pleasure, who could sabotage our work so that we get fired or accused of something we didn't do, does owe us something: honesty, fairness.

To accept a lesser standard is to sanction evil.

An employer who sees that we are working hard, doing our best for their company, owes us more than they owe to another lazy employee who doesn't do their work but sucks up to them.

To accept a lesser standard is to sanction evil.

Relatives owe us, as adults, the decency not interfering or and micro-managing our lives: to stop treating us as if we were five years old. Continued verbal or physical abuse is unacceptable. We shouldn't be living off of each other. Charity or is OK, but not to be expected. Loans are a form of charity, in a sense, and must be repaid. Treating a relative like a bank or a pawn shop is also unacceptable.

To accept a lesser standard is to sanction evil.


Now, here's the tough part. This is the one where I will probably get the most flack. Society needs, and must have, a social safety net. Not because it's owes us. Not because it's guilty of something, although sometimes a society can be so poorly structured so that it does "owe us." I will say more about that in my next column on this topic.

But when people live under bridges, have severe mental problems, or simply fall through the cracks, to toss them out on the street and let them fend for themselves is counter productive and dangerous to society itself. I'm not talking about giving them filet mignon, but basic sustenance. I'm not talking the Taj Mahal, but maybe a roach infested room with basic transportation. I especially am not talking about giving them money. I think that's where I join the Conservatives. Giving bums, slackers, the homeless, the disenfranchised, whatever label you wish to apply, money creates problems. Money is something they should earn to take them beyond they very basic level of existence I have suggested we should supply, if we must. It's to get them off the streets, out of our hair, and at least point them in the right direction.

One of the most basic fallacies is that we are each separate individuals, each responsible for only ourselves, that all we have to do when we fall is pick ourselves up and start to walk again. The reality is that there are plenty of people who out of indifference, greed, a desire to advance by stepping on others or just sadism, who are eager to trip us, prevent us from achieving and sometimes even just surviving; no matter how hard we try to pick ourselves up and walk again. Forty years ago in a quad in New York City, a lady was beaten and stabbed over and over again while neighbors closed their blinds and shut off their ears. If one person had decided to call or a few decided to step in New York City itself would have been better off. The city suffered from that incident far more than one murdered innocent. It became a symbol of all that was wrong with the city and people left in droves. In a smaller way I believe when we decide that those who haven't picked themselves up only have themselves to blame we only hurt ourselves. It's far too easy, and self-serving, to think those thoughts and do little to nothing, just like many did during those screams in the quad so many years ago. I'm sure many thought, "Well what the hell did she go out there for to begin with," and blame her, close the blinds, refuse to hear. We are only talking about a few degrees of difference here when we compare the attitudes of those who closed their blinds that night and those who close their hearts. It's the same attitude.

On 9/11 the city, like Phoenix, was reborn. Neighbor helped neighbor. Firemen went into towers about to collapse over and over again. Policemen stopped giving tickets and they too ran to the towers, not away. We work best as a collective, not as a society that says, "You are responsible for yourself, stop whining, cry baby."

That is the kind of "compassion" I feel is missing in our country and it so desperately needs. Not a free ride. Not being babied. But more of an opportunity to climb out of the deep holes that are dug either by fate, the cruelty of others and, yes, even our own stupid mistakes.

My first story...

A cousin I grew up with is one of the "unfortunates." Little schooling, five DUIs, attitude deluxe... I would call him the classic case of someone who should "pick himself up by his own boot straps," if only mentally and financially he had bootstraps. I saw a lot of what went into making what he is today. I saw a lot of physical and especially a lot of verbal abuse. Nothing he ever did was right, everything was because he was "stupid," a "moron," a "worthless piece of..." His brother put a gun up to his head and held him for at least half an hour threatening him and telling him how worthless he is, His parents claimed he was just being a "cry baby." When he was little my parents always use to comment that when he cried because his brother was beating on him, his parents would say," Stop being such a cry baby. The world's a hard place. Grow up."

He was four.

Even back then, when he got into his teens, my father said, "I really like him, but after all that's happened I think it's probably too late." He has been treated that way all his life by his family. When he got older his father and mother, anal retentive to the extreme, kept telling him to "Straighten your ass out... go in the armed forces." Being anal retentive himself... never guess what armed forces turned him into? Yup, anal to the extreme. According to my father he spent most of those years in the brig. He was pushed out. Now, he can't keep a job, and just like the rest of his family tells everyone else what's wrong with them, tells everyone else how to run their lives, but can't take an ounce of criticism. He borrows money every time he can, money that disappears... somewhere. I think most of you can figure that one out.

This is a classic case of a man who should pick "himself up by his own bootstraps." But after half a century of repeating the same patterns over and over, reinforced by his parents, telling him to stop being a "cry baby" will solve nothing. What he needs in not more loans, government money or a bridge to live under. What he really needs is his own personal, caring yet tough, counselor that will help him beyond this pattern and into a slightly better future. It would take someone with the professional training and the right mix between compassion and tough love. But instead we just let him drift around in society hurting himself and others.

This is only one of many stories I have to tell, stories that underline the fact that we are not isolated individuals and only responsible for ourselves. Many of these true stories magnify that, even with the best of efforts, some of us will fail not because of some fault in ourselves but because of people who continue to kick you down to the ground while telling you to stop being a "cry baby." It is our interconnectedness that can light up the darkness just a little more. It is our tendency to turn our backs on these problems that only returns to bite us.


Further discussion regarding this issue can be found here under the comments section below this column or here, or at the specially created thread at Volconvo.

[Scribbler1]

On the surface I don't think society "owes" us anything. As this thing called "society" is indeed all of us it follows we would owe ourselves something, which is a logical impossibility.
However, once you break "society" into its individual elements (the "haves" and the "have nots") you can have one segment of society owe something to the other. In this case, realistically we don't, but morally we do.
If your Brother in Law is down on his luck, you might help him out and think nothing of it. Why not apply that logic on a larger scale? I feel we usually owe much of our success to others, so why not pay back a little?

I'm not talking about bums or the type who prey on people's sympathy, but the people who would love a chance if only they had it.

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by Scribbler1, I feel we usually owe much of our success to others, so why not pay back a little? I'm not talking about bums or the type who prey on people's sympathy, but the people who would love a chance if only they had it.

Sounds like a "pay it forward" idea. Interesting.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Ken Carman,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ken Carman,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Scribbler1, I feel we  usually owe much of our success to others, so why not pay back a little? I'm not talking about bums or the type who prey on people's sympathy, but the people who would love a chance if only they had it.

Sounds like a "pay it forward" idea. Interesting.[/b][/quote]

I'm not sure the "pay it forward" idea is what I was getting at, but my knowledge of the concept is scant at best. I'm thinking of different approaches than the usual methods of welfare and charity. If, for instance, you are a severely disabled Vet, welfare would make sense as there isn't much you can do for yourself in our society. But for a homeless Vet (or anyone else in the same situation), an old car and a minimum wage job would be better than handing him a million dollars.

[Suburbanite]

I was just kidding, it doesn't owe you shit, I don't know why I wrote that.

[syracusa]

Originally posted by Ken Carman, One of the most basic fallacies is that we are each separate individuals, each responsible for only ourselves, that all we have to do when we fall is pick ourselves up and start to walk again. The reality is that there are plenty of people who out of indifference, greed, a desire to advance by stepping on others or just sadism, who are eager to trip us, prevent us from achieving and sometimes even just surviving; no matter how hard we try to pick ourselves up and walk again.

I agree with the statement above 100%.
One of the reasons why I have never been able to embrace and assimilate into the American culture 100% is because I see the opposite of this belief in the minds of a lot of people, I would even say most people - though they don't necessarily express it directly.
(And please let's not start with the childidsh "Oh, but not everybody is like that". Yeah, I know. A lot are, though. More than I care to see.)

I have never seen a people so cilvil, similey and polite on the outside yet so detached, careless and disconnected from the rest of society, FROM OTHER PEOPLE, on the inside - than the American people. Most only think in terms of themselves and at best, their immediate families - and that's it. Everything else has little relation or relevance to them.

It's almost as if they do not really care to live in a social mindset, among people like themselves -- society is there only to make some things function for them and help create creature comforts for the individual ...but it's not a warm, family-like group that they feel they actually BELONG TO.
The waiving of the flag and that kind of plastic patriotism with "we support our troups"...(but then we tell veterans they signed a contract before they lost limbs so it's their problem, take responsibility!!) does nothing but disgust me even more.

This in itself created a huge void in me since I came here 7 years ago. My husband (who is American) is saddened to see that I cannot find my peace in this culture no matter how much I try. He is a wonderful human being, I love him immensly... but of course, it is easier for him to survive here simply because he was born here and he is used to whatever culture he found when he came on this earth.
But today, after having visited many other places and cultures, my family included, he understands what I am talking about. He ardently wants to retire in Europe...but we are very far away from retirement.

I honestly believe that this kind of socially disconnected, "me-blind" psychology that the American people has come to promote as "virtue"...is directly related to the kind of people that decided to come here in the first place. The "founders".

Yes, we talked about the bright side of those people: they were pioneers, desirous of freedom, courageous, daring, not afraid of shit, whatever.

But all reality has 2 sides. What type of people are willing to leave an entire society behind, the familiar, the warm, the people you're used to see, the ways in which things are done in the place you were born - to go live in no man's land?

People who were never integrated in it to begin with!!. The Loners, often the sociopaths, the disconnected, the weird, the fundamentalists (who would rather talk to "God" on their own for the rest of their lives than talk to another human being ever again).

And don't give me the bull with "they ran away from the "wrongs" of Europeans. Save murder... right or wrong, people adapt to the way things are done in the place where they are born. It's called home and it's called comfort. It's called social integration. It takes a maladapted loner to want to run away from everything they've ever known and into a deserted new land...to get something like this.

I would definitely not expect compassion and a sense of belonging to society - ANY society !!- from people like this. These founders only created a "society" that you don't need to and shouldn't even bother to actually BELONG TO or think too much about. All you need to think about is YOURSELF. (By the way, psychiatrist will tell you that this is the first step to mental illness).
And this is what they are so proud of.

Yes, thye are hard-working and determined (to do what?); Of course you will be! what the heck are you going to do all the time when you could go years without exchaging two significant words with another human being? You will freaking work hard (not sure for what). It'll get in your blood. But it is not enough to work hard (with selfish thoughts only!) to be declared a good, decent human being.
Human beings are social animals. The deviations from this norm are freaks of nature, as far as I am concerned.

It is this kind of people who will believe Society owes you nothing and you owe nothing to Society. They are only separate atoms in this world and I have serious problems with people shaped and formed by this type of mentality telling the rest of the world about compassion, democracy, humanity, understanding and the like.
The American people are all about: "Leave me alone, I want to make my money, get out of my way".I personally do not want to see a world like this for tomorrow.

At this point, I would prefer to see less phony "civility" and "hard-work" and more genuine interest in each other,more warmth and humanity in this world.

[Ken Carman]

"But all reality has 2 sides."

At least, more often many more sides. Ah, but that's another topic. Discussing issues isn't like peeling an onion where you just discover more onion, is it? Once again, it's because every issue is, in reality, connected to all other issues.

...interesting and inspiring post, Syracusa.

syracusa...you're not going to suggest we hold hands and sing kumbiyah now are you ?

[Gorgo]

I don't think it's so much that society owes anybody anything, but that making sure others have what they need to survive and be healthy ensures that we'll be okay if we need such things.

Should society do something to prevent us from hurting ourselves?

One first has to ask whether society has any effective means of doing that. State-imposed religion programs such as AA are not based on science, and for the most part seem ineffective. Sending millions of people to prison seems to be an effective way to siphon money from society with little good effect.

Originally posted by Gorgo, I don't think it's so much that society owes anybody anything, but that making sure others have what they need to survive and be healthy ensures that we'll be okay if we need such things. Should society do something to prevent us from hurting ourselves? One first has to ask whether society has any effective means of doing that. State-imposed religion programs such as AA are not based on science, and for the most part seem ineffective. Sending millions of people to prison seems to be an effective way to siphon money from society with little good effect.

I beg to differ...having been dry now for the past 15 yrs due to AA I can attest to its effectiveness..even though it's original foundation is based along Christian principles....the principles themselves can be found in any of a half a dozen different religions or philosophies., and AA is not state-imposed...one may be ordered to attend it...but that is no assurance the individual will pay attention and learn from it..Science so far has not been able to adress the issue of alchoholism, nor of most addictions.

As for what society owes us?...Life..in other words..you get to live...Liberty, the freedom to make your own choices in life and follow your own dreams without hindrance....Pursuit of happiness...you get out of life what you put into it..

[syracusa]

Originally posted by ACause, syracusa...you're not going to suggest we hold hands and sing kumbiyah now are you ?

No.

It was never our Founding Fathers intent to develop a welfare-laden society..Johnson may have had noble intentions with his New Deal initiatives...but they have long since been destroyed by a self-perpetuating system of entitlements and a victim mentality..that only the government can help me out....with someone else's money that is.

[Gorgo]

See: http://www.volconvo.com/forums/index.php?s...?showtopic=2593

Originally posted by ACause, I beg to differ...having been dry now for the past 15 yrs due to AA I can attest to its effectiveness..

Originally posted by Gorgo,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Gorgo,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>See: http://www.volconvo.com/forums/index.php?s...?showtopic=2593 <!--QuoteBegin-ACause, I beg to differ...having been dry now for the past 15 yrs due to AA I can attest to its effectiveness..

[/b][/quote]

Few...that's too much of a thread for me to read...can you give me a synopsis?.lol..

[syracusa]

Originally posted by ACause, It was never our Founding Fathers intent to develop a welfare-laden society.

Americans have an annoying way of always talking about their "Founding Fathers" as if they were some sort of infallible Gods.

I have no emotional attachments to your "Founding Fathers" and I believe many of them were somewhat creepy, by my standards (and the standards of most human beings in this World).

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Your Founding Fathers were weird!!!!!!

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by ACause,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ACause,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Gorgo, I don't think it's so much that society owes anybody anything, but that making sure others have what they need to survive and be healthy ensures that we'll be okay if we need such things. Should society do something to prevent us from hurting ourselves? One first has to ask whether society has any effective means of doing that. State-imposed religion programs such as AA are not based on science, and for the most part seem ineffective. Sending millions of people to prison seems to be an effective way to siphon money from society with little good effect.

I beg to differ...having been dry now for the past 15 yrs due to AA I can attest to its effectiveness..even though it's original foundation is based along Christian principles....the principles themselves can be found in any of a half a dozen different religions or philosophies., and AA is not state-imposed...one may be ordered to attend it...but that is no assurance the individual will pay attention and learn from it..Science so far has not been able to adress the issue of alchoholism, nor of most addictions.

As for what society owes us?...Life..in other words..you get to live...Liberty, the freedom to make your own choices in life and follow your own dreams without hindrance....Pursuit of happiness...you get out of life what you put into it..[/b][/quote]

I agree, I think AA and NA are amazing programs, something I wouldn't have thought prior to having attended. The goal and its acheivements are just remarkable, and the new perspective they give to those involved is life saving. They are very careful to support one faith or another, and even make room for atheism, but they express the need for you to identify that you're not in control of your life, and that the God of your understanding is the way in which you can acheive your goals.

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by syracusa,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (syracusa,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-ACause, It was never our Founding Fathers intent to develop a welfare-laden society.

Americans have an annoying way of always talking about their "Founding Fathers" as if they were some sort of infallible Gods.

I have no emotional attachments to your "Founding Fathers" and I believe many of them were somewhat creepy, by my standards (and the standards of most human beings in this World).

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Your Founding Fathers were weird!!!!!![/b][/quote]

Many of our founding fathers were some of the brightest people on the planet. Some sucked though.