Does Society "Owe" Us?

[Lava]

Nor is reproducing.

Lava

[Lava]

Originally posted by Lava,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lava,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Gorgo, AA is absolutely based on science.

Nope. Not even a little. Doesn't claim to be.[/b][/quote]

OK, I'll tell you how it is based on sound science and see what happens.

The first 100 sober members of the fellowship were polled in the 1930s to find out what theyd done that had kept them sober. The survey result was that there were 12 particular actions that they had all done some of, and which they reported had helped them greatly in the struggle with drink. These 12 actions were drawn up as the famous 12 Steps of AA.

How is this scientific? It is sound scientific method to:
1. say we dont know how theyre keeping sober
2. take a survey to find out
3. statistically identify the common solutions
4. compile them to make the most effectrive program known to the world.

That my friend is science working. It is the beauty of statistics.

Since then AA's results have been confirmed over and over scientifically.


Lava

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by Scribbler1,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Scribbler1,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Suburbanite,@ <!--QuoteBegin-syracusa, Yes, some of those are even weirder. As for mandatory birth control, I am all for it. We are already too many on this Planet. We need to slow down. Most of those parents do not know how to raise and care for a human being anyhow. I am not going to cry over birth control. Good on you Hitler. Can I urinate, or is there too much piss in the world?

But your piss ain't gonna crowd the planet and eat up all the food. You seem to be equating not having so damn many babies to killing people.[/b][/quote]

No, I am equating it to fascism, which it most certainly is.

[Gorgo]

Source?

Originally posted by Lava, Since then AA's results have been confirmed over and over scientifically. Lava

[Suburbanite]

Polls are hardly science, just math.

[Mia]

We all, 'owe', IMO, it to anyone we see in need , to fill whatever part of the need we are able to. Then they 'owe' it to do the same for someone else. Then 'they' now owe it to "Pay It Forward".

I was helped when I needed it last week, by several people. I was blessed enough to meet two homeless people I could then pay some forward to.

It just so happens they are in on the program already, and always help people they see in need. That's why they don't have all that they need for themselves.

So they are also paying me back.

They have fixed things in my house that I don't know how to, and would have had to pay a lot of money to have done.

If we were to all to this, everyone could be alright

I'm good now, thanks to them and all the others who have helped me get back up.

And now a couple more people are getting a helping hand back up on their feet too.

[syracusa]

Originally posted by Suburbanite,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Suburbanite,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-syracusa, Yes, some of those are even weirder. As for mandatory birth control, I am all for it. We are already too many on this Planet. We need to slow down. Most of those parents do not know how to raise and care for a human being anyhow. I am not going to cry over birth control.

Good on you Hitler. Can I urinate, or is there too much piss in the world?[/b][/quote]

Thank you, Mr. "Who-Cares-About-Trampling-On-Others?".
If you hadn't been born, you wouldn't have needed to urinate.
Yes, there is way too much piss in this world - evidently.

As for myself, "The Hitler", yes I'd rather see fewer children born than more of them "trampled on" by the likes of you.

[syracusa]

Originally posted by Lava, Anyway, just how do you stop lava multiplying? Lava

Greetings Lava! :)

Well...you would probably not be the one who needs most to stop multiplying.
But as someone pointed out, it is possible to do that. China managed to make people stop multiplying (as much). Through incentives - like with everything else.

Is it ethical? To me, yes. It is very ethical.

In theory, from this age on, I could probably have at least 5-6 kids if I just went with the flow. In reality, I will only have two at the most. That is a given. Will I miss the other potential 4? Not at all. Not even a bit. Because I will make sure they will never exist.

To me, the other potential four would be the potential enemies and competitors of my first planned two. Fewer resoures for each one separately, less of my attention for each one, lower quality of life for all of them. Why would I want to do that? Because I don't have the minimum amount of decency to give just a thought about the potential lives of these 6 kids?

Am I going to keep reproducing just becasue I can?
NO.

Would I pass incentives for everyone to have fewer children? If I could I would. Would I support a leader who would plan to do that? Yes, I would.

Birth control is a God-sent. Use your brain and use it.

[Lava]

Originally posted by syracusa,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (syracusa,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Lava, Anyway, just how do you stop lava multiplying? Lava

Greetings Lava! :)

Well...you would probably not be the one who needs most to stop multiplying. [/b][/quote]

Morning :)
The residents of Pompeii might disagree with you...
So might a few dinosaurs.

To me, the other potential four would be the potential enemies and competitors of my first planned two. Fewer resoures for each one separately, less of my attention for each one, lower quality of life for all of them. Why would I want to do that? Because I don't have the minimum amount of decency to give just a thought about the potential lives of these 6 kids?

hmm, that I understand. Although I'm sure its not the only way to look at things, I wouldnt necessarily dismiss other ideas on it.

Would I pass incentives for everyone to have fewer children? If I could I would.

OK I undertsand why you want less, but why do you want to make sure everyone else has less? I'm thinking is it the overpopulation question?


Lava

[Lava]

Originally posted by Mia, It just so happens they are in on the program already, and always help people they see in need. That's why they don't have all that they need for themselves.

How is someone going to help another if they cant even get their own shit together? Have you been smoking by any chance?

They have fixed things in my house that I don't know how to, and would have had to pay a lot of money to have done. If we were to all to this, everyone could be alright

they scoping the place out for a robbery then? Maybe theyre stashing the drugs there. You sound like a right easy mark. Hope youre damn good at martial arts, its a risk being female, specially around nutjob people.


Can I ask for a hand count on this? How many buy Mia's analysis?


Lava

[castille]

Society should never owe anyone anything, otherwise people become spoilt and feel they deserve more than they get.

One of the reasons I feel American society in particular is so fragmented is that people are given too much by society. If you don't have a job, you get free money (a pretty stupid concept).

What happened to the days when everyone worked hard, and those unable to work were sponsered by hard-working family members?

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by castille, Society should never owe anyone anything, otherwise people become spoilt and feel they deserve more than they get. One of the reasons I feel American society in particular is so fragmented is that people are given too much by society. If you don't have a job, you get free money (a pretty stupid concept). What happened to the days when everyone worked hard, and those unable to work were sponsered by hard-working family members?

Going from last paragraph to first...

Those days, in this century, didn't really exist for the most part. The only time they really did was during the Depression, an experience few wish to repeat but if trends continue with this huge baby boom-aging population it just might happen. The "greatest generation" received grants and other advantages to build houses, buy cars... mostly through government sponsored Vet programs. Of course there was always FDR's programs. Families seem to rarely sponsor those unable to work from my experience, partially from a growing callus attitude towards each other and the resulting break down of the family. partially because medical expenses and treatment have become so expensive. Sometimes I think if we treated doctors more like a "calling" (Like teaching) and less like a get rich scheme that would help. Of course medical training would have to follow suit.

I have always thought giving people money to dig themselves out of a hole is a stupid concept. They got into this hole either through an inability to handle money to begin with, by getting taken advantage of by those seeking money or by having a very bad run of bad luck that may not be over. Services, food, housing and transportation are better "gifts" and/or trades for work.

Society owes us for taxes that we pay, obviously, and society owes itself. A society filled with homeless and the down and out is like a stuck sink or toilet. It doesn't work well, if at all. Some societies put such people into ovens or shoot them. No thanks. Therefore I believe in a more humane solution. Society owes itself to survive so civilization can survive. Otherwise, given our killer instinct, we be less civilized than most animals.

[Lava]

Originally posted by castille, Society should never owe anyone anything,

Why? I can think of a slew of advantages to society owing. Like relief from fear of losing your job, you'll still get fed clothed and housed. Like policing freeing us from all sorts of criminal carry on. Like much lower crime, since the out of work dont have to resort to crime to survive. Like not having to worry about your son or daughter dying when they got fired for some stupid reason. Etc etc etc etc etc.

What happened to the days when everyone worked hard, and those unable to work were sponsered by hard-working family members?

In those days many were financially tied to extremely abusive families. Nowadays we dont have to be stuck in such dreadful situations. Thank god.

Personally I'm only too happy to pay so much a week so that those with nothing get enough to get by.


Lava

[Ken Carman]

Re: controlling the birth rate...
"No, I am equating it to fascism, which it most certainly is."

Actually some of the most oppressive uses of this, like mandatory sterilization and mandatory abortion have been used by all the "isms:"
Communism (or the ones who claim they are Communists), dictatorships and, yes, fascists. A fascistic state may do this... or not. The only true definition of fascism is corporatism according to Mussolini, where the corporations are given a lot of power by the state. He knew a lot about fascism until his corpse was dragged through the streets. By then he knew nothing.

BTW, in case all of you have been wondering, for some reason I have been missing the notifications on this post. And I started it!

[Compugasm]

The libertarian party looks better and better every day.

[Lava]

Originally posted by Mia, We all, 'owe', IMO, it to anyone we see in need , to fill whatever part of the need we are able to. Then they 'owe' it to do the same for someone else. Then 'they' now owe it to "Pay It Forward".

Trouble is, as long as a person thnks this, they
a) arent so well motivated to go sort things out themselves, as they think someone else ought to help them with it,
b) resent and blame others for not delivering what they imagine theyre owed, an attitude that causes all sorts of failures, as well as emotional disappointment.

I believe it is an unsuccessful point of view.

Lava

[castille]

Originally posted by Lava,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lava,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-castille, Society should never owe anyone anything,

Why? I can think of a slew of advantages to society owing. Like relief from fear of losing your job, you'll still get fed clothed and housed. Like policing freeing us from all sorts of criminal carry on. Like much lower crime, since the out of work dont have to resort to crime to survive. Like not having to worry about your son or daughter dying when they got fired for some stupid reason.[/b][/quote]
Its a luxury, not a necessity. Society can't "owe" us anything. If society really owed us something, did society take a vacation during the 3 months when 1 million people in an obscure part of the world the size of Texas get murdered by their neighbours?

Protection from police, welfare handouts, and other handouts are a luxury, not a priviledge. When people start *expecting* to get free money even if they dont work, they wont work....

Personally I'm only too happy to pay so much a week so that those with nothing get enough to get by.

But is your money really helping them? What about those who spend it on beer and drugs? I'd rather my tax money go towards programs to helping them, rather than in the form of pure cash.

[Ken Carman]

OK, folks, as promised, here is the second column.

First, some quotes from our ongoing conversation about how, and if, society owes us. I tried to use as many as possible, but tried to focus in on the ones that kept to the topic or opened only a slightly different path. Sorry if I missed some of you.

Protection from police, welfare handouts, and other handouts are a luxury, not a privilege. When people start *expecting* to get free money even if they don't work, they wont work..-castille

What society owes us is a fair shot.-Tess

At this point, I would prefer to see less phony "civility" and "hard-work" and more genuine interest in each other,more warmth and humanity in this world. -syracusa

I don't think it's so much that society owes anybody anything, but that making sure others have what they need to survive and be healthy ensures that we'll be okay if we need such things. - Gorgo

As for what society owes us?...Life..in other words..you get to live...Liberty, the freedom to make your own choices in life and follow your own dreams without hindrance....Pursuit of happiness...you get out of life what you put into it.....

It was never our Founding Fathers intent to develop a welfare-laden society..Johnson may have had noble intentions with his New Deal initiatives...but they have long since been destroyed by a self-perpetuating system of entitlements and a victim mentality..that only the government can help me out....with someone else's money that is. -ACause

Trouble is, as long as a person thanks this, they
a) aren't so well motivated to go sort things out themselves, as they think someone else ought to help them with it,
b) resent and blame others for not delivering what they imagine they're owed, an attitude that causes all sorts of failures, as well as emotional disappointment. -Lava

Society owes us for taxes that we pay, obviously, and society owes itself. A society filled with homeless and the down and out is like a stuck sink or toilet. It doesn't work well, if at all. Some societies put such people into ovens or shoot them. No thanks. Therefore I believe in a more humane solution. Society owes itself to survive so civilization can survive. Otherwise, given our killer instinct, we be less civilized than most animals. - Ken Carman

If you don't have a job, you get free money (a pretty stupid concept).-Castille

We all, 'owe', IMO, it to anyone we see in need , to fill whatever part of the need we are able to. Then they 'owe' it to do the same for someone else. Then 'they' now owe it to "Pay It Forward".

I was helped when I needed it last week, by several people. I was blessed enough to meet two homeless people I could then pay some forward to.- Mia

People don't care about what you care about, well tough. From one ignorant American to another, stay out of my business! -Compugasm

Do people expect help from society. Absolutely!

Societies, or cultures, or tribes, or gangs, or groups. or organizations, or family units were formed based on the idea that people help one another.

People tend to live in groups for that reason. Because some help is expected.

Does it always turn out that way.... Nope! -m5lange1

When I wrote this column, started the threads, a few weeks ago, I was surprised by where the conversation went. Conversing with others, when it's at it's best, is like unwrapping a never ending present that never stops enlightening the mind. Twists, turns, right angles; all these descriptives can be used to decorate the process. Of course there are always less pleasant ways to describe the process occasionally, like when people banter back and forth about which one in the discussion is a Hitler. Some enjoy such heated exchanges directed at each other, but to me it has always seemed like all those abusive, "destroy the village to save it," inner family squabbles. It solves nothing and creates a lot of hate.

In this column I'd like to set up a model society. Feel free to burn it down, add, subtract or make fun of it. I will be no one's Hitler and demand my model be followed or agreed with, but there will always be someone out there who thinks I am "Hitler" even for suggesting it.

What kind of society do we want? At one extreme we have a society that might take care of us and keep us from falling, cradle to grave. At the other end we have a society that stands back and helps no one. "Every man to himself," is the cliche'. Obviously neither of these concepts is acceptable. Paraphrasing Lava's quote I placed at the start of this column, a society that prevents everyone from falling would be doomed to fail. People need to achieve and being "taken care of" to that extreme won't encourage them to do that. Yet do we really want a society where every person totally stays out of the affairs of others? I don't think so. Murder? Pedophile? Rape victims? Government rightful steps in through the actions of police, judges and, yes I hate to admit it, even lawyers. Or is addressing such criminal acts merely a luxury, as Castille seems to suggest?

"Pay it forward" is a great concept that I recommend people follow, but I'm afraid society is far too selfish for "pay it forward" to be anything but a great addition to our culture on a small scale. I've known too many who take what's offered and never pay it forward and then sneak back and use what was given to beat you, insult you and maybe even kill you. The lesson? Great concept, but it won't solve the problem and a little suspicion isn't always a bad thing. Helping people means holding back support sometimes.

So where do we go from here to build a better society?

To quote myself, "A society filled with homeless and the down and out is like a stuck sink or toilet. It doesn't work well, if at all."

The homeless, the down and out, are here whether we like it or not. Ignoring them won't solve anything. But just giving them money won't work either. On an individualistic level "paying it forward" will help, but never solve, the problem.

So, how would I build what I consider a more ideal society? I would recommend that such folks be given no money, but just enough housing, transportation and food that they might use these gifts as a platform from which to take wing, or wallow in their waste if they must. There will always be those who refuse to achieve, but isn't it better for us that they be less in our way? Let them live on the streets and they will be in our way. Force them upon our hard working families and we may have just doubled or tripled the problem.

Included in this more "ideal society" must be some counseling especially for those with mental problems and self-abusive behavior. What do I mean by "self-abusive behavior?" I believe that people often get caught in a maze of their own making that they simply don't see a way out of. They need to be shown the way, politely. If they don't take it, then we should mostly leave them alone and waste as little resources as possible on them.

I'm not recommending these things because I'm suggesting we become a more "bleeding heart" country. I suggest them because like the "stuck toilet" simile I referred to, "Wasting as little resources" to some means offering them nothing and I believe that is counter productive. Societies are based on people gathering together to help each other, Even wolves hunt in packs. When government started funding super-highways it helped us all, just like when they funded municipal sewage and water. Corporations certainly can help but it must always be remembered that corporations are more interested in the bottom line, profit, than they are in us. If they could get away with selling a "pig in a poke" too many of them would. That's not to insult the many fine, civic minded, business owners out there who just want to sell a good product. Hell, I'm one of them myself.

Yes, society owes us, but only because it owes itself. Because society, by definition, is a group of living beings it should function in the best interests of those individuals. The best interest is not served by homeless people in our streets, the mentally ill unchecked or the suicidal, the enraged, the downtrodden ignored. It only creates more problems for those who are fitting into society. If we only address the problems once they have done something that requires the police or the mortician, we are abusing ourselves. Constant crisis management is a damn bad way to manage a society.

Compassion, done right, profits society. But how do we promote compassion? You can't legislate it. Anyone who has ever had to use what little social safety net we have knows there's nothing "compassionate" about dealing with Bureaucrats. Our churches try to promote it but often are too busy trying to promote hate at the same time, hate for liberals, conservatives, the homeless, gays, fundamentalists, secular humanists... so many targets of convenience. Is it any surprise that there's so much anguish out there?

Perhaps George Bush, Senior had the right idea, even if it was only a meaningless campaign phrase meant to siphon off votes: "a kinder and gentler nation." If our leaders lead, I believe the nation will follow.

If only hate wasn't more profitable than compassion. It's also a lot easier than compassion. That's sad, because unless our leaders lead the way we are all like spelunkers who are lost in a very long and very dangerous cave, but each individual decides to head in a different direction and keep what we little we think we know about the way out to ourselves. Our flashlight batteries are dying. And considering just how dangerous to ourselves we have become, if we continue down this pitch black path, like the dinosaurs... so will we.

(More about this topic can be found at http://www.politicalpuzzle.org/inspection . This topic can also be found at http://slantleft.com. Please look for the appropriate "Inspection" block. The topic that started this thread can be found here, at Volconvo: Society and Rights. It is called "Suicide Legality." All quotes are the property of the posters but were edited specifically to serve the topic at hand. The author apologizes in advance for not editing these comments to satisfy any poster's specific taste, but I didn't have the option of you staring over my shoulder when I did this, did I? Thank God. Like so many accident causing back seat drivers, I often find editors to be a such a royal pain in the...)

[Lava]

Quote by: castille, Why? I can think of a slew of advantages to society owing. Like relief from fear of losing your job, you'll still get fed clothed and housed. Like policing freeing us from all sorts of criminal carry on. Like much lower crime, since the out of work dont have to resort to crime to survive. Like not having to worry about your son or daughter dying when they got fired for some stupid reason.

Its a luxury, not a necessity.[/quote]
If you want people that fail in the job market to stay alive, stay out of very serious trouble etc, then yes its a necessity.

Society can't "owe" us anything. If society really owed us something, did society take a vacation during the 3 months when 1 million people in an obscure part of the world the size of Texas get murdered by their neighbours?

not a logical point.


[/quote]Protection from police, welfare handouts, and other handouts are a luxury, not a priviledge.[/quote]
I dont think stying alive is a luxury myself.

When people start *expecting* to get free money even if they dont work, they wont work....

The experience of the Brtish welfare state shows thats not so for about 98% of the adult population. Of the 2% apx that arent working but could physically, some are capable of it and some arent. Many are physically able but no emlpoyer will touch them.

But is your money really helping them?

yeah it helps them stay alive, not freeze, and not be subject to the kind of awful abuses penniless people are. And it helps the rest of us not to need to fear that.

What about those who spend it on beer and drugs?

foolish, but they still stay alive. Goal still achieved.

I'd rather my tax money go towards programs to helping them, rather than in the form of pure cash.

we have that here too. But some are simply beyond help, its that simple. Some people cant get even the basics right, some dont get what the problem is, and for some no employer would want anything to do with employing them.

Your point that some will abuse the system is true for a very small percentage, thats the price tag. Worthwhile I think.


Lava

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by syracusa,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (syracusa,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Suburbanite,@ <!--QuoteBegin-syracusa, Yes, some of those are even weirder. As for mandatory birth control, I am all for it. We are already too many on this Planet. We need to slow down. Most of those parents do not know how to raise and care for a human being anyhow. I am not going to cry over birth control. Good on you Hitler. Can I urinate, or is there too much piss in the world?

Thank you, Mr. "Who-Cares-About-Trampling-On-Others?".
If you hadn't been born, you wouldn't have needed to urinate.
Yes, there is way too much piss in this world - evidently.

As for myself, "The Hitler", yes I'd rather see fewer children born than more of them "trampled on" by the likes of you.[/b][/quote]

I don't think I've ever trampled on anyone, or at least to any significant extent beyond that of general trampling. And I don't care what you'd like to see, it is not your business nor the governments.