Does Society "Owe" Us?

Originally posted by syracusa,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (syracusa,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-ACause, It was never our Founding Fathers intent to develop a welfare-laden society.

Americans have an annoying way of always talking about their "Founding Fathers" as if they were some sort of infallible Gods.

I have no emotional attachments to your "Founding Fathers" and I believe many of them were somewhat creepy, by my standards (and the standards of most human beings in this World).

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Your Founding Fathers were weird!!!!!![/b][/quote]

Weird..as in how?...somewhat creepy?...that's a definitive statement if I ever heard one...might I ask what your nationality is?..And judging some of the cultures around the world..I'd find far more creepier..like africa where they cut off the clitoris of a woman to deny her an orgasm..or the Middle East where a woman can be beaten for showing her self or being out in public with a man now her husband...or Asia where China has mandatory birth controls in place to prevent the birth of boys.

As for emotional attachment....no..I use them as references..at the time of the Founding Fathers...my tribe had lived here on this continent for approx 12,000 yrs..now...I guess you could say the Founding Fathers of the Cherokee were weird...all dressed up in leathers...primitive Stone-Age society..yep..weird

[Gorgo]

Lots of people think homeopathy worked for them, too, but there is no basis for that other than placebo effect.

AA has no basis in science, whatsoever, and people are being forced into it, which amounts to government promoting religion.

Originally posted by Gorgo, Lots of people think homeopathy worked for them, too, but there is no basis for that other than placebo effect. AA has no basis in science, whatsoever, and people are being forced into it, which amounts to government promoting religion.

Bullshit..No one is being forced into it...I can attest to that..you can be ordered to attend it...sure..but that doesn't mean you have to pass some sort of test..it's all on you...if you want..you can sit there every meetig and pick your nose and fart far as we care..we're there to help people. And the principles of AA as I have stated may indeed be Christian-orientated, AA was after all started by a Christian..the philosophies behind it can be found in half a dozen philosophies or religions...so the Government isn't telling you..."You're going to become a Christian"..that's nonsense and you know it....there is no preaching...no sermons...no dogma being discussed.

A lot of things don't have a basis for science...teaching my sons to ride a horse didn't require a science degree..but they managed it.

Can you point to me a scientific method that resolves the issue of Alchoholism and Drug addiction?

[Gorgo]

I've already done that.

Originally posted by ACause, Can you point to me a scientific method that resolves the issue of Alchoholism and Drug addiction?

Originally posted by Gorgo,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Gorgo,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I've already done that. <!--QuoteBegin-ACause, Can you point to me a scientific method that resolves the issue of Alchoholism and Drug addiction?

[/b][/quote]

Really...I was a drunk for 15 yrs and no scientific method got me turned around.

[Gorgo]

Yup. Again, what you think your experience is does not equal science.

[Lava]

QUOTE Gorgo

> State-imposed religion programs such as AA

AA is not a religious program. There are atheists doing it too.
Nor is AA state imposed. Attendance not does not equal working the program, and attendance is always voluntary. People accept atendance as a means to a lesser punishment.

> are not based on science

AA is absolutely based on science. The steps of the program were derived scientifically, using sound statistical technique. The results continue to be confirmed by surveys of members. The principles of it all hold together logically.

The only thing that can be said about it here thats relevant is its not simple! The fact that someone thinks its a religious program show just how little clue they actually have about it.


> and for the most part seem ineffective.

most dont get it, thats true, because its a damn tough order. Of those that actually do it, the results are impressive - one of the 2 most impressive treatment models in the world in fact.


> Sending millions of people to prison seems to be an effective way to siphon money from society with little good effect.

now there I do agree, why do that when you can sentence the more minor offenders to work 14 hours a day 6.5 days a week? Crazy, criminals should pay us, not cost us!


Lava

[Lava]

QUOTEs Ken Carman, Lava

> Does society "owe us?" Do other individuals "owe us?"
>
> I would say mostly, "No," but a very significant amount of "Yes." My guess is Lava would disagree.

I'd quite agree with you on that. :)



> No survey or study could ever quantify the rightness or wrongness of
> these questions. How do you take a survey on the very subjective opinion,
> "We are all cry babies at heart?" You can't.

yes you can, easily. You ask people how they reacted in the face of their most difficult problems. Did they sit and figure out how to address them, decide they coudlnt, then look for sources of help? Or did they cry and hope someone else would come do it for them, then go get drunk?

I still say we are at heart crybabies :)



> An employer who sees that we are working hard, doing our best for their
> company, owes us more than they owe to another lazy employee who
> doesn't do their work but sucks up to them.
>
> To accept a lesser standard is to sanction evil.

Is it really evil to say that the employer owes us precisely what they agreed to owe us? Ie x dollars a week? I know its pretty annoying to see employers favouring sycophants, but they dont actually _owe_ us something over and above what they agreed to pay us and give to us in other ways.


> Relatives owe us, as adults, the decency not interfering or and
>micro-managing our lives: to stop treating us as if we were five years old.
>Continued verbal or physical abuse is unacceptable. We shouldn't be living
>off of each other. Charity or is OK, but not to be expected. Loans are a
>form of charity, in a sense, and must be repaid. Treating a relative like a
>bank or a pawn shop is also unacceptable.
>
>To accept a lesser standard is to sanction evil.

Clearly thats one opinion, and a fair enough one, but I'm not sure why you brand people with any other opinion as evil :)


> We work best as a collective, not as a society that says, "You are
> responsible for yourself, stop whining, cry baby."

Different people work best difering ways, we're not mental carbon copies. I learnt that at age 6 when I gave up trying to make any sense of the teacher's incomprehensible method of spelling, and made up my own. Suddenly I learnt to spell! I went from a spelling retard to scoring first and second. When I do research projects I work best alone. When I studied at school I learn best from books and experiments, not classes. These kinds of differences in personality type and learning technique are well known in relevant established circles.


<snip story of failure>

> This is a classic case of a man who should pick "himself up by his own
> bootstraps."

This pattern is well known, and it is known that such people can not solve such problems themselves.

> But after half a century of repeating the same patterns over and over,
> reinforced by his parents, telling him to stop being a "cry baby" will solve
> nothing.

Right, it never does. For some reason we have to figure that bit out ourselves. Then we make progress!


>What he really needs is his own personal, caring yet tough,
>counselor that will help him beyond this pattern and into a slightly better
>future. It would take someone with the professional training and the right
>mix between compassion and tough love.

I work with these kind of people and have never met even one that has suceeded in turning their life around by working with a counsellor. The counsellor approach is a guaranteed failure, the fad of the day.



>Many of these true stories magnify that, even with the best of efforts, some
>of us will fail not because of some fault in ourselves but because of people
>who continue to kick you down to the ground while telling you to stop being
>a "cry baby."

At least lets be clear I never advocated that, neither the kicking nor telling people to stop being crybabies. I would advocate some ways that encourage people to figure it out for themselves.


Lava

[m5lange1]

Owe is a strange concept when it comes to anything beyond bargins, contracts and loans.

Do people expect help from society. Absolutely!

Societies, or cultures, or tribes, or gangs, or groups. or organizations, or family units were formed based on the idea that people help one another.

People tend to live in groups for that reason. Because some help is expected.

Does it always turn out that way.... Nope!

Think about being in an area where you feel unsafe. In the wild or perhaps a rough area of a city you are not familiar with.

You feel better,,,, more secure.... if you are around other people.

Does that ALWAYS mean they would come to your aid if you were attacked by wild animals or muggers..... You would hope so, but it is not always the case.

Would they deter the wild animals by their scent or make the mugger more hesitant because they would be whitnesses? Probably.... maybe.... not always.

So? Is society, or a crowd, obligated to help?

I guess not.

Are you obligated to help?

I guess not.

Does that mean it is a good thing not to help? I suppose that depends on whether you are a bystander or the one in need of aid.
I would say it IS a good thing to help.

If the help would completely stop, I doubt that society, or tribes, or orgnizations, or gangs, or groups, or families would survive because its purpose would be gone.

So does society owe aid. Whether it does or not.... It should!

[Gorgo]

Nope. Not even a little. Doesn't claim to be.

It's state-imposed religion. Nothing else.

Off-topic, though.

Originally posted by Lava, AA is absolutely based on science.

How is AA state imposed religion...I'm dying to hear this...I don't ever recall hearing one sermon the entire time I've been going to AA..not one minister, not one collection plate passed around....no statue of the Virgin Mary..etc

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by syracusa,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (syracusa,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Most only think in terms of themselves and at best, their immediate families - and that's it.[/b]

So what? What is so bad about that? I'd argue that "most people" don't do enough of that. They're all to worried about their neighbor.

Originally posted by syracusa,@ It's almost as if they do not really care to live in a social mindset

You have a better chance of making your neighborhood, your apartment complex, or your family a much better place than you do the world. Start there.

<!--QuoteBegin-syracusa,
...but it's not a warm, family-like group that they feel they actually BELONG TO. [/quote]
You mean the one they're selfishly paying attention to, rather than the everyone else they're ignoring? I find this entire post full of contridictions. People don't care about what you care about, well tough. From one ignorant American to another, stay out of my business! America, Fuck YEAH!

[Tess]

Like Ken's description of his cousin's life, some people who have that kind of adversity get stronger because of it, and some use it as an excuse to be weak. Some who grow up with all the advantages become bums, while others go on to even greater triumph than their parents. Many people who find themselves on the street, are there because of mistakes they've made. But just as many are there because of either mental or physical illness. And these days too many people who did everything right, but still lost thier job/home/stable life, are left with the blame by society.

If we lived in a utopian society then the social safety net would take care of those who are mentally or physically ill. And it would recognize the difference between those who are mentally ill but functional, and those who aren't. Personally I'm not one of those people who think drug addiction or alcoholism is a mental illness. I think it's a personal choice, and that many people can be either or both and still be functional in society. The choice is in letting the addiction consume you to the point that you can't function.

Where society's safety net really fails is in helping those who have lost thier jobs through no fault of thier own. And in not demanding that companies take better care of their employees, that people not dollars are the bottom line. Our society spends too much time hashing over fault and dollars, and not enough time simply extending a helping hand when the need is obvious.

What society owes us is a fair shot. Companies should have to pay thier employees a living wage, and not be allowed to lay off people who are close to retirement so they can reduce thier pension. People who are fighting disablities should either be helped with disability payments, or have help finding companies willing to work with them, or training for jobs they can do. Let me give you an example of this that's close to home. My husband was a supervisor for a newspaper here. He'd been working for them in some capacity for almost 30 years, since he was 12. He was doing a good enough job to win a trip to Hawaii, even after having been in the hospital in intensive care with complications from diabetes (type 1). Shortly after he got back from Hawaii, he was laid off, given a severance package. Seems his diabetes was driving thier insurance premiums up, so they laid him and all the other insulin dependent diabetics in circulation off. He tried getting other jobs, but found that most companies have the same problem with hiring someone with a chronic illness. He applied for social security disability, but was turned down. They want you to die before you collect if possible. It took him three years with a lawyer fighting to collect social security, and in the mean time he went back to work for the paper, doing what he had done when he was 12 for more than another decade. You see newspaper carriers aren't employees, so the paper doesn't care if you are sick, dying, drug addicted or what ever. As non-employee's they aren't responsible for insurance, workman's comp, taxes, or anything else. You are just a warm body filling that position. And sadly that is the direction most other companies in the country are heading, and where they want to be.

A country without compassion, without a safety net, where workers are just slabs of meat, and only the upper echelon CEO's and boardmembers/stockholders really matter. People with mental or physical illnesses don't fit into this kind of society at all. And increasingly neither do regular people.

We have lost our appreciation as a society for good honest work. It's no longer good enough to be a waitress, or a janitor or a construction worker, or plumber or whatever. People who do regular jobs are seen as losers. Honest work has been devalued. Only those who are on top matter. And that's where our society fails all of us.

[syracusa]

Originally posted by ACause, ..And judging some of the cultures around the world..I'd find far more creepier..like africa where they cut off the clitoris of a woman to deny her an orgasm..or the Middle East where a woman can be beaten for showing her self or being out in public with a man now her husband...or Asia where China has mandatory birth controls in place to prevent the birth of boys.

Yes, some of those are even weirder.
As for mandatory birth control, I am all for it. We are already too many on this Planet. We need to slow down. Most of those parents do not know how to raise and care for a human being anyhow. I am not going to cry over birth control.

[Lava]

Tess wrote:

>If we lived in a utopian society then the social safety net would take
>care of those who are mentally or physically ill. And it would
>recognize the difference between those who are mentally ill but
>functional, and those who aren't.

I'm all for that, in principle. In practice it doesnt work out so good though. You go on to illustrate why...

> Personally I'm not one of those
>people who think drug addiction or alcoholism is a mental illness. I
>think it's a personal choice, and that many people can be either or
>both and still be functional in society. The choice is in letting the
>addiction consume you to the point that you can't function.

The inability to distinguish between those that can work and those that cant is one of the problems with the great ideal expresed above. Medical research and diagnosis is simply riddled with crap for an assortment of reasons, and to imagine authorities can distinguish one from the other is simply incorrect.

In Britain, where the above ideal is in place to a fair extent, not only do they have poor ability to distinguish who can work and who cant, but really they dont seem that interested. You get hit with bullshit responses to claims at random, whether you get your entitlement is as much a lotto as anything - in some cases. And lots get state money when they deserve nothing.


Lava

[Lava]

Re compulsory birth control... I think enforced medical stuff is right out there in the out there zone myself. I own myself and my destiny and I fully intend to keep it that way.

If someone comes at me trying to administer drugs I dont want to take, it wont go well. Nor for society will the consequences of turning medics into the enemy.

I think we had a thread on here about overpopulation, basically showing the concept was a myth.


This is the problem with officially enforced personal life choices: theyre wrong too often, and there are always some for whom they are wrong, in some cases to the extent of a threat to life. More problems on the ethical side with it too, etc...

Anyway, just how do you stop lava multiplying?


Lava

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by ACause, How is AA state imposed religion...I'm dying to hear this...I don't ever recall hearing one sermon the entire time I've been going to AA..not one minister, not one collection plate passed around....no statue of the Virgin Mary..etc

I got the collection basket, but nothing else.

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by syracusa, Yes, some of those are even weirder. As for mandatory birth control, I am all for it. We are already too many on this Planet. We need to slow down. Most of those parents do not know how to raise and care for a human being anyhow. I am not going to cry over birth control.

Good on you Hitler. Can I urinate, or is there too much piss in the world?

[Lava]

duplicate

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Suburbanite,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Suburbanite,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-syracusa, Yes, some of those are even weirder. As for mandatory birth control, I am all for it. We are already too many on this Planet. We need to slow down. Most of those parents do not know how to raise and care for a human being anyhow. I am not going to cry over birth control.

Good on you Hitler. Can I urinate, or is there too much piss in the world?[/b][/quote]

But your piss ain't gonna crowd the planet and eat up all the food. You seem to be equating not having so damn many babies to killing people.