Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Lava · Nov 7, 2004, 05:34 pm

Ah yes, I remember that one...

The shockees were all acting, there were no real shocks. The shocker volunteers were ordered to increase the severity of the shocks step by step. Initially they were mild, but steadily increased. The dial was marked all the way upto red line lethal. The actors must have been quite convincing :)

Most went ahead and shocked them severely, near to the point of lethal. Some had no qualms about going to lethal shocks, many had qualms but after being ordered to do it and being assured it was ok THEY WENT AHEAD and administered what they believed were lethal shocks. The actors confirmed the severity of the supposed shocks, so the shockers were in no doubt what they were about to do.

Only a tiny percentage actually refused to administer lethal shocks! Nasty isnt it?

This reminds me of the thread that wandered onto homelessness. The homeless are the less well together of the people, some of the least balanced and morally well formed. In short homelessness is a real warning sign of someone who could do anything. That doesnt mean all will, but as a whole theyre a fairly nasty lot.

Lava

Samildanach · Nov 10, 2004, 08:28 am

Quote:

This reminds me of the thread that wandered onto homelessness. The homeless are the less well together of the people, some of the least balanced and morally well formed. In short homelessness is a real warning sign of someone who could do anything. That doesnt mean all will, but as a whole theyre a fairly nasty lot.

I don't agree withthis statement at all. Homelessness can be perpetuated from generation to generation. I also do not agree that they are any more or less balanced than someone else at birth. And the only reason they become capable of anything is through desperation and having to find ways to live in a much more difficult situation than you or I will probably ever have to live with. Most homeless people in a lot of ways are the same as suicide cases. A lot of them started off the same as you or me and then they met a problem they couldn't surmount which really knocked the hope out of them and the result is they gave up trying. If any of them are nasty its generally because they have to be to survive. The streets are a jungle and they play by the same rules as the jungle. You have to be tough.

Lava · Nov 10, 2004, 04:57 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Samildanach,

Quote:

This reminds me of the thread that wandered onto homelessness. The homeless are the less well together of the people, some of the least balanced and morally well formed. In short homelessness is a real warning sign of someone who could do anything. That doesnt mean all will, but as a whole theyre a fairly nasty lot.

I don't agree withthis statement at all. Homelessness can be perpetuated from generation to generation.

I also do not agree that they are any more or less balanced than someone else at birth.

Well, I didnt say at birth, but as a whole they will indeed be more unbalanced at birth. It is simple to see this by looking at why theyre on the street.

> And the only reason they become capable of anything is through desperation and having to find ways to live in a much more difficult situation than you or I will probably ever have to live with.

Absolutely dont agree, not one lil bit. People dont hit the street cos theyre happy where they are, they do it out of total desperaiton, our of having the shit kicked out of them for too damn long, being raped since age 6, etc etc. They are no lovers of humanity, believe me. Mostly theyre just nasty sick fuc-ks.

> Most homeless people in a lot of ways are the same as suicide cases. A lot of them started off the same as you or me and then they met a problem they couldn't surmount which really knocked the hope out of them and the result is they gave up trying.

I agree some are like that.

> If any of them are nasty its generally because they have to be to survive.

not true at all.

In fact almost the only way off the street is to behave, and behave at all times. No-one'll give you any chances otherwise.

Lava

crayola · Nov 12, 2004, 03:01 pm

What about the psychopaths who manipulate others into doing their dirty work for them, and then they stand back and laugh about the victimization of people and how gullable those victims are?

Practical jokes come to mind in behavior and attitude of "getting" the other guy.

What about the seriousness of physical harm in manipulative language? What has someone talked you into doing lately? Doing harm to a fellow employee? A fellow student? Hurting someone due to jealousy? How manipulative and gullable are you?

If you are a victim of psychopathic behavior what should you do? Who can you turn to for help? Who can you trust?

Suburbanite · Nov 12, 2004, 03:08 pm

Ghosts Busters?

But really, is that a situation the most of us need worry about?

crayola · Nov 12, 2004, 03:42 pm

Is that a situation most of us need to worry about?

Yes, especially adult women adn young girls. There is a growing rate of criminal activity due to psychological manipulation. Rape comes to the forefront as the most objectionable crime.

How much manipulation are you willing to tolerate?

Lava · Nov 12, 2004, 09:03 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Suburbanite,
But really, is that a situation the most of us need worry about?

If you ever have a 12 yo kid youll see just how totally manipulated they are by advertising etc. They just swallow it. It takes years to learn the reality, and many never do. We are _majorly_ manipulated.

Entire industries are based on manipulation. Fashion, most cosmetics, surge absorbers, shops and catalogs selling nothing but junk, people spending their money trying to keep up with some daft advertised social image instead of saving it for the things they really need in life, the list goes on. People are very manipulated.

Here advertisers describe cars as sexy: if you find cars sexy theres something seriously wrong. Yet many buy this silly lie, and become wiling to pay more for this supposed 'sexiness'.

Lava

Lava · Nov 12, 2004, 09:08 pm

Re women and girls, most women model their whole life on manipulation. They buy into a popular image of what women supposedly are - which of course involves buying shitloads of products. This popular image stifles them badly. If they take interest in something, ooh no, I cant do that, its not 'girly' enough etc. Such victims, they cut themselves off from discovering and enjoying what they really like in life. Thats some loss, I tell you. Hobby loss, career loss, inspiration loss, feeling of interest and satisfaction loss, its sad.

I'm not real clear what rape has to do with manipulation btw.

Lava

Lava · Nov 12, 2004, 09:10 pm

The price we pay for that is bored dissatisfied unfilfilled unsuccessful people.

Lava

castille · Nov 17, 2004, 09:25 pm

We've been obssessed with popular image since year 0. How many Roman girls went to extreme lengths, including disfiguring themselves, to achieve beauty?

This isn't a new issue. It's not caused by advertising either. Just look at Goths, rebels, punks, etc. They hate advertising, yet they are so comformist that they're even worse than those brainwashed by advertising.

Its not the fault of advertising - its the fault of society.

Of course, if people didn't give a damn about how they looked, we wouldn't need to do silly things like take showers.

Suburbanite · Nov 18, 2004, 04:23 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Lava,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lava,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Suburbanite,
But really, is that a situation the most of us need worry about?

If you ever have a 12 yo kid youll see just how totally manipulated they are by advertising etc. They just swallow it. It takes years to learn the reality, and many never do. We are _majorly_ manipulated.

Entire industries are based on manipulation. Fashion, most cosmetics, surge absorbers, shops and catalogs selling nothing but junk, people spending their money trying to keep up with some daft advertised social image instead of saving it for the things they really need in life, the list goes on. People are very manipulated.

Here advertisers describe cars as sexy: if you find cars sexy theres something seriously wrong. Yet many buy this silly lie, and become wiling to pay more for this supposed 'sexiness'.
[/b][/quote]

Heh, don't lecture me on the powers of aesthetics, I am quite aware of them. Cars can have a huge amount of visual appeal though, sexy isn't a term I'd agree anyone is being sold on, but attractive surely. Now don't knock advertisements, the process is ingenious and so are the results. Awareness of the power of media needs to be taught, media itself is not the bad guy for everyone else's gullibility. Responsibility lies all over the place on this issue. I think when I first joined here I wrote a topic Sean liked a lot about this very subject.

Lava · Nov 18, 2004, 08:02 am

> Awareness of the power of media needs to be taught, media itself is not the bad guy for everyone else's gullibility. Responsibility lies all over the place on this issue.

I guess thats kind of true. But it doesnt change the fact that media users are setting out to do nothing but manipulate and take advantage.

I know, responsibilty for the solution lies with viewers and with public education. Responsibility for te problem lies with advetrisers.

> I think when I first joined here I wrote a topic Sean liked a lot about this very subject.

Give us a link if you like.

Lava

Suburbanite · Nov 18, 2004, 04:30 pm

Eh, don't really know where it is. There used to be a forum here with topics sean selected, it was in there, but I don't think that forum exists anymore.
There is no problem with advertisement, and taking advantage is kind of a strong phrase to use. Advertisement plays a highly crucial role in our society, and it is their responsibility to their financial interests to continue convincing others to buy their products, just as it is the responsibility to the individuals financial interests to critically and objectively look at advertisements. They are in conflict, surely, but there is no wrong or right side, just two sides with different interests, both of which are very important in our Capitalist culture.

caligrown9 · Nov 19, 2004, 09:49 am

[/quote]
According to many writers, psychopaths are particulrly good at charming people. Door to door sales is a profession that attracts and suits psychopaths.

caligrown9 · Nov 19, 2004, 09:51 am

Who dictates what a psychopath really is? If it is the doctors who is to say they are right? Does someone have to hurt or harm others in order to be deemed a psychopath? According to the defnitions I have looked at psychopaths are defined as "antisocial," so how could these people be good at harming people?

Lava · Nov 19, 2004, 10:38 am

[QUOTE=caligrown9

> Who dictates what a psychopath really is?

I guess researchers on the subject. But its not dictated, its just the mass of what information is most accepted. There are of course some areas of differing opinions among experts.

> If it is the doctors who is to say they are right?

Doctors dont define anything, they just use what theyre taught to classify or diagnose people.

> Does someone have to hurt or harm others in order to be deemed a psychopath?

no

> According to the defnitions I have looked at psychopaths are defined as "antisocial," so how could these people be good at harming people?

I have the feeling youre suggesting those 2 things contradict, but they dont. When psyhopaths are described as antisocial, it does not mean they dont interact or have friends, it means they do things that are damaging to others, they are destructive people.

Are they 'good' at harming others? I've no idea, I supopse it would vary fom one person to another. But they are set up in such a way that they are very much more likely to harm others. They have no qualms about it at all, it does not bother them in the least. That is exactly what makes someone a psychopath.

Lava

PatrickHenry · Nov 19, 2004, 12:00 pm

Psychopathy is may be thought of as lacking a conscience. Con artists are often genial psychopaths. They make us like them, then rob us. I don't know if there is any true remedial therapy for treating psychopathy. Maybe this is one syndrome that (if accurately diagnosed) should just be ELIMINATED...

Suburbanite · Nov 19, 2004, 02:30 pm

You guys would enjoy Thomas Sazs's The Myth of Psychotherapy. He talks about how the voice Freud set in the Western world and the power over assuming all sorts of obscure things were mental diseases (though void of a virus or a bacteria) and it empowered the government and shrinks to lobotomize whomever they wished just by calling them crazy.

Nov 17, 2004, 09:25 pm	#30 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	We've been obssessed with popular image since year 0. How many Roman girls went to extreme lengths, including disfiguring themselves, to achieve beauty? This isn't a new issue. It's not caused by advertising either. Just look at Goths, rebels, punks, etc. They hate advertising, yet they are so comformist that they're even worse than those brainwashed by advertising. Its not the fault of advertising - its the fault of society. Of course, if people didn't give a damn about how they looked, we wouldn't need to do silly things like take showers. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Nov 19, 2004, 12:00 pm	#37 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,446	Psychopathy is may be thought of as lacking a conscience. Con artists are often genial psychopaths. They make us like them, then rob us. I don't know if there is any true remedial therapy for treating psychopathy. Maybe this is one syndrome that (if accurately diagnosed) should just be ELIMINATED... "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Nov 7, 2004, 05:34 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	Ah yes, I remember that one... The shockees were all acting, there were no real shocks. The shocker volunteers were ordered to increase the severity of the shocks step by step. Initially they were mild, but steadily increased. The dial was marked all the way upto red line lethal. The actors must have been quite convincing :) Most went ahead and shocked them severely, near to the point of lethal. Some had no qualms about going to lethal shocks, many had qualms but after being ordered to do it and being assured it was ok THEY WENT AHEAD and administered what they believed were lethal shocks. The actors confirmed the severity of the supposed shocks, so the shockers were in no doubt what they were about to do. Only a tiny percentage actually refused to administer lethal shocks! Nasty isnt it? This reminds me of the thread that wandered onto homelessness. The homeless are the less well together of the people, some of the least balanced and morally well formed. In short homelessness is a real warning sign of someone who could do anything. That doesnt mean all will, but as a whole theyre a fairly nasty lot. Lava

Nov 12, 2004, 03:01 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
crayola Molten Ash Posts: 129	What about the psychopaths who manipulate others into doing their dirty work for them, and then they stand back and laugh about the victimization of people and how gullable those victims are? Practical jokes come to mind in behavior and attitude of "getting" the other guy. What about the seriousness of physical harm in manipulative language? What has someone talked you into doing lately? Doing harm to a fellow employee? A fellow student? Hurting someone due to jealousy? How manipulative and gullable are you? If you are a victim of psychopathic behavior what should you do? Who can you turn to for help? Who can you trust?

Nov 12, 2004, 03:08 pm	#25 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	Ghosts Busters? But really, is that a situation the most of us need worry about?

Nov 12, 2004, 03:42 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
crayola Molten Ash Posts: 129	Is that a situation most of us need to worry about? Yes, especially adult women adn young girls. There is a growing rate of criminal activity due to psychological manipulation. Rape comes to the forefront as the most objectionable crime. How much manipulation are you willing to tolerate?

Nov 12, 2004, 09:08 pm	#28 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	Re women and girls, most women model their whole life on manipulation. They buy into a popular image of what women supposedly are - which of course involves buying shitloads of products. This popular image stifles them badly. If they take interest in something, ooh no, I cant do that, its not 'girly' enough etc. Such victims, they cut themselves off from discovering and enjoying what they really like in life. Thats some loss, I tell you. Hobby loss, career loss, inspiration loss, feeling of interest and satisfaction loss, its sad. I'm not real clear what rape has to do with manipulation btw. Lava

Nov 12, 2004, 09:10 pm	#29 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	The price we pay for that is bored dissatisfied unfilfilled unsuccessful people. Lava

Nov 18, 2004, 08:02 am	#32 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	> Awareness of the power of media needs to be taught, media itself is not the bad guy for everyone else's gullibility. Responsibility lies all over the place on this issue. I guess thats kind of true. But it doesnt change the fact that media users are setting out to do nothing but manipulate and take advantage. I know, responsibilty for the solution lies with viewers and with public education. Responsibility for te problem lies with advetrisers. > I think when I first joined here I wrote a topic Sean liked a lot about this very subject. Give us a link if you like. Lava

Nov 18, 2004, 04:30 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	Eh, don't really know where it is. There used to be a forum here with topics sean selected, it was in there, but I don't think that forum exists anymore. There is no problem with advertisement, and taking advantage is kind of a strong phrase to use. Advertisement plays a highly crucial role in our society, and it is their responsibility to their financial interests to continue convincing others to buy their products, just as it is the responsibility to the individuals financial interests to critically and objectively look at advertisements. They are in conflict, surely, but there is no wrong or right side, just two sides with different interests, both of which are very important in our Capitalist culture.

Nov 19, 2004, 09:49 am	#34 (permalink) (top)
caligrown9 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 2	[/quote] According to many writers, psychopaths are particulrly good at charming people. Door to door sales is a profession that attracts and suits psychopaths.

Nov 19, 2004, 09:51 am	#35 (permalink) (top)
caligrown9 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 2	Who dictates what a psychopath really is? If it is the doctors who is to say they are right? Does someone have to hurt or harm others in order to be deemed a psychopath? According to the defnitions I have looked at psychopaths are defined as "antisocial," so how could these people be good at harming people?

Nov 19, 2004, 10:38 am	#36 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	[QUOTE=caligrown9 > Who dictates what a psychopath really is? I guess researchers on the subject. But its not dictated, its just the mass of what information is most accepted. There are of course some areas of differing opinions among experts. > If it is the doctors who is to say they are right? Doctors dont define anything, they just use what theyre taught to classify or diagnose people. > Does someone have to hurt or harm others in order to be deemed a psychopath? no > According to the defnitions I have looked at psychopaths are defined as "antisocial," so how could these people be good at harming people? I have the feeling youre suggesting those 2 things contradict, but they dont. When psyhopaths are described as antisocial, it does not mean they dont interact or have friends, it means they do things that are damaging to others, they are destructive people. Are they 'good' at harming others? I've no idea, I supopse it would vary fom one person to another. But they are set up in such a way that they are very much more likely to harm others. They have no qualms about it at all, it does not bother them in the least. That is exactly what makes someone a psychopath. Lava

Nov 19, 2004, 02:30 pm	#38 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	You guys would enjoy Thomas Sazs's The Myth of Psychotherapy. He talks about how the voice Freud set in the Western world and the power over assuming all sorts of obscure things were mental diseases (though void of a virus or a bacteria) and it empowered the government and shrinks to lobotomize whomever they wished just by calling them crazy.