Doctors

[Lava]

What ever is this doctor thing all about? People seem to put these folks on some enormous demigod like pedestal, and insist they cant be wrong. Its seriously unrealistic. I think people want them to not be wrong so badly theyre willing to deny that they could be.

In my own medical experience doctors have screwed up over and over. Not one single specialist I've seen has yet been able to do anything of help. In every case I've made far more progress on my own by reading up on the subject.

The main reasons were 2. First, none of the esteemed specialists was up on all the latest research, in fact in one cases it seemed I knew more about it than they did (an odd experience!). Second they were simply careless, making assumptions, overlooking workable options, and simply not bothering to work through all the options available to see whch ones should be tried.


The last dentist I saw gave me a drug that the data sheet clearly stated was contraindicated, and failed to do any monitoring afterwards, despite the clear risk of life threatening complications. The specialists I'm due to see next wanted to give me a preparation with some of the same drugs as the preparation I had a life threatening reaction to before, when we dont know which of the components is the problem. And this is when there is another different anaesthetic mix that I've had no problems with, and that has an acceptable safety record. Talk about stupid.

In case some people dont realise it, doctors are people. People as a bunch are a wide mix, with every motive under the sun, from Mother Teresa to Dr Harold Shipman. Like the rest of society. You dont have to undergo morality and motivational testing to get a degree in medicine.

Doctors are also a long way from being the most intelligent people in our world, with IQs typically in the 120s. This means they do not get enough grasp of the principles and practice of science to evaluate things on scientific basis, instead they must judge simply by what they're taught. They have very poor ability to distinguish between good sound research and obviously faulty research used to sell products to doctors and defend manufacturers from legal comeback.
They also dont grasp the difference between correlation and 100% fit, and routinely misdiagnose on the basis of a few oversimplistic correlations.

In my observation ego is normally an issue and they lie as often as not when faced with a need to admit they dont know something.

They run businesses, the purpose of which is to make large profits. No, it is not to heal the world, mission purpose No. 1 is money.

Are they terrible? No, theyre people, like any other people, as fallible and foibled as the rest of us.


Am I on my own here?


Lava

[syracusa]

Lava,

I am downright shocked because only last evening I was talking to my husband about this very thing, wondering why is it that NOBODY seems to ever want to discuss this topic and just face the truth?

You have no idea how you managed to speak my mind, word by word.
Thanks A LOT for posting this. Totally makes me feel better!!!

I could only echo what you said, so I am not going to add anything else for now, 'cause i still have sore fingers from typing about the freakin' rich. (in the other thread ).

But I sooooo hear you!


Let's see who's gonna say what.

[castille]

I also hate how people seem to associate IQ with intelligence. People with IQs of 1000 can just as easily be fooled as people with IQs of 1.

I see nothing wrong about doctors. They're like people, they do their job, they get paid a salary, they marry at the age of 31, have 2.1 children, drive a car, live in a house in a regular suburb....boring, but some people seem to prefer a boring life to risk and excitement.

Now day traders....

[syracusa]

Originally posted by Lava,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lava,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What ever is this doctor thing all about? People seem to put these folks on some enormous demigod like pedestal, and insist they cant be wrong. Its seriously unrealistic. I think people want them to not be wrong so badly theyre willing to deny that they could be. [/b]

Yes, they do and I think it is laughable. But then again...I have an extremely politically incorrect theory about "people" (to be read "most people") which I am not going to lay out here.

Originally posted by Lava,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lava,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In my own medical experience doctors have screwed up over and over. Not one single specialist I've seen has yet been able to do anything of help. In every case I've made far more progress on my own by reading up on the subject. [/b]

I subscribe 100%. I have spent some literally sinful (S-I-N-F-U-L!!!) amounts of money with doctors in the past 3 years and not only that I am yet to find one that was able to help me a little bit, but all (minus one, my GP, originally from Russia, not the US!!) that I have seen (and I've seen quite a few) did not find it necessary to spend more than 3 minutes total with me. The rest of the time I spent with the nurse.

They were all in a terrible hurry, rushed me through, barely listened to what I had to say and one of them actually did not even want to talk about my problem (I had some horrible diziness from an inner ear problem); he just said that it must have been a cold and it was about to go away...and the rest of the time he spent it interrogating me about where I am coming from, how are things over there, where does my husband work, what does he do ...and how are girls in my country!!!

Invariably, at the end of each visit they all charge 200$ (at the very minium) and up, they do not think they owe you curing/healing and they also refuse to spend more than a few minutes with you.

Do people realise that "doctors" are the only service providers alive who insist on retaining the right to charge in full even if they FAIL TO DELIVER the service?
Talk about starting a business and having almost zero chances of failing!!!!

People have been sooooo turned against lawyers and they learnt to hate them big time but at least those bastrads havce the decency to only charge half or nothing if they fail to deliver the service (win in court, etc).
What about doctors?!!!!

Now let's talk "malpractice suits".

Waow!! Horrible, horrible people who sue angel-like doctors and drive the costs of health care up; and the trial lawyers who represent them - let's kill them all, horrible bastards. Hopw do they dare to upset the all-perfect doctors?

As a matter of fact, I would be scared to death the day I would be prevented from finding a lawyer to represent me in court. And after the experinces I've had with the medical profession in this country, people like John Edwards are my absolute heros.

The most recent episode:

I go to an OB-GYN to have an annual check up. Tell her during the visit that we may try to start for a baby in December.
I tell her that I have never tried for a baby in the past, have never gotten pregnant and have never had sex in my entire life without protection (condoms). I also asked her a question regarding possible signs of infertility.

All this time, she was rushing me through, barely listening.

Then, she says, "we'll run so and so tests". I didn't know what she was planning to do - after all I cannot go to medical school just to be able to keep in check these idots that will cost me an arm and a leg.

Two weeks later I receive a note from my insurabcecompany that I must pay 800$ out of pocket for the entire visit because they do not cover that.

I thought I was going to faint. I had the best possible group insurance that an American can get in the USA and I had just gone for an annual check-up visit - that was more than covered under my plan.

I call the insurance. Guess what? My brilliant doctor put an "infertility" code on my records. I simply thought I would get a heart attack that very moment.
How can anyone be diagnosed with infertility when she had never screwed anybody in her entire life without a condom?

And this is because she was not listening, was not paying attention and was in a hurry to get the next "assembley-line" patient, to charge 300 more dollars per 3 minutes face-to-face.

I called the practice yelling my brains out and yes, eventually they admitted she must have had someone else's file in her hands, along with mine, and somehow she put down the wrong code. Or at least that's what they said.

But this, only after I yelled and screamed threatening law suit.

This is what happens when you treat patients like "assembley-line" raw materials so you can sqwueeze in as many as you can im a day and make as much money as Good God allows.

Yes - they will sue.
Before pointing to the lawyers for driving the costs of health insurnace up, they should reviee their own reasoin for having gotten into this "noble" profession.

Hellloo! Remeber?
"Noble" as in "Mother Teresa noble", not noble as in "let's make tons of money off of people's suffering" noble.

How despicable. And they complain about lawyers.
Doctors have been out of control for waay to long now so they had time to become 20 times as nasty as lawyers are.

<!--QuoteBegin-Lava,@

Doctors are also a long way from being the most intelligent people in our world, with IQs typically in the 120s. This means they do not get enough grasp of the principles and practice of science to evaluate things on scientific basis, instead they must judge simply by what they're taught. They have very poor ability to distinguish between good sound research and obviously faulty research used to sell products to doctors and defend manufacturers from legal comeback.
They also dont grasp the difference between correlation and 100% fit, and routinely misdiagnose on the basis of a few oversimplistic correlations.
[/quote]


Yes, this is another huge myth - that "doctors are smart" which is fueled by the larger myth that people who manage to get their hands on a lot of money MUST be smart or else.

The medical profession requires some memory and perseverence. Smart? There are other professions that yield way smarter individuals by all sorts of standards.

Yes, it is quite painful to think that I have more years of education, schooling (both formal and non-formal)and understanding of the principles of science under my belt than your average doctor does - and yet I make a pathetic fraction of what they make.

But then again - I live in the US where lots of money is equated with smart. (Can you spell D-U-M-B?).

I know personally 2 doctors (a neurologist and a psychiatrist) both of whom give my husband shivers up his spine every time he meets them. Just the thought that these idiot duffus egomaniacs somehow managed to crawl their way into this profession (parents had money)...makes me scared to death at the idea that people often trust them with their health, even their lives.

The psychiatrist is a flamboyant homo whore who literally "puts out" to very rich people (much richer than him) for huge Gucci shopping sprees, he is flown in by the person and then prostitutes himself with them etc. He makes around 600,000 a year. Makes me vomit.
The other one is just a duffus.

<!--QuoteBegin-Lava,

They run businesses, the purpose of which is to make large profits. No, it is not to heal the world, mission purpose No. 1 is money.
[/quote]

Yes, they do. I know you are in the UK (right?) but in the US, it looks like 99,999% of them do it for this reason (money/prestige/God complex) and not to actually heal a vulnerable person. Just charge the hell out of him/her - after all, it's a dog-eat-dog world.

[Lava]

Quote by: syracusa, But then again...I have an extremely politically incorrect theory about "people" (to be read "most people") which I am not going to lay out here.

well, pm me with it?

People have been sooooo turned against lawyers and they learnt to hate them big time but at least those bastrads havce the decency to only charge half or nothing if they fail to deliver the service (win in court, etc). What about doctors?!!!!

I think there might be a turn in public opinion on this. We have the net now, which makes all the difference with information getting out and about, we also have Dr Shipman now, and I read somewhere someone claiming that he is only the tip of a large iceberg. Who knows. While lunatics murdering patients isnt the real issue here, it does seem to be what makes the public wake up the most.

Now let's talk "malpractice suits".

If the public suddenly somehow got educated enough to spot all malpractice when they saw it, number of cases would increase considerably. Almost all people seem to trust the doc's advice unconditionally, never realising the errors and omissions that get made. People go to their grave because they are unable or unwilling to question the good doctor. Thats not just my view, official stats back that up on a big scale. Lets see what I can find... no I didnt keep links, but basically, known medical screwups take huge numbers of lives every year - and thats not refuted or controversial, its undisputed.

Waow!! Horrible, horrible people who sue angel-like doctors and drive the costs of health care up; and the trial lawyers who represent them - let's kill them all, horrible bastards. Hopw do they dare to upset the all-perfect doctors?

Docs over here arent gettting that theres a problem. So theyre making no effort to find any solution. Some sound education would go a lot further imho.

Quote by: snipped The most recent episode: All this time, she was rushing me through, barely listening. I call the insurance. Guess what? My brilliant doctor put an "infertility" code on my records. I simply thought I would get a heart attack that very moment. How can anyone be diagnosed with infertility when she had never screwed anybody in her entire life without a condom? And this is because she was not listening, was not paying attention and was in a hurry to get the next "assembley-line" patient, to charge 300 more dollars per 3 minutes face-to-face.

Have had the same thing. Unfortunately juries are naive enough to believe anything docs say without question, and these kind of simple minded screwups can have very serious consequences on a persons life down the line.

I called the practice yelling my brains out and yes, eventually they admitted she must have had someone else's file in her hands, along with mine, and somehow she put down the wrong code. Or at least that's what they said. But this, only after I yelled and screamed threatening law suit.

Your situ could be proved. Many can not, and in such cases an admission of error is not likely.

This is what happens when you treat patients like "assembley-line" raw materials so you can sqwueeze in as many as you can im a day and make as much money as Good God allows. Yes - they will sue. Before pointing to the lawyers for driving the costs of health insurnace up,

I understand that in US you can sue if something goes wrong. Thats not the case here, if you undergo treatment, there are risks and you accept them. If it goes wrong, it happens, and you knew it might. To be able to sue the medics when they did nothing wrong is imho a foolish piece of law. It simply means that american medicine will inevitably be ridiculously expensive.

Here you can sue for negligence, and rightly so, but not for medical risks you chose to expose yourself to.

Doctors have been out of control for waay to long now so they had time to become 20 times as nasty as lawyers are.

I guess we've yet to see a Shipman lawyer. I dont think what docs do is normally about malice, just carelessness and lack of relevant knowledge.

Yes, this is another huge myth - that "doctors are smart" which is fueled by the larger myth that people who manage to get their hands on a lot of money MUST be smart or else.

Theyre a lot smarter than juries, and there lies a problem. A jury does not normally have the skills to see the problems with what doctors testify.

The medical profession requires some memory and perseverence.

I wonder. My last doc told me that gelatin capsules do not dissolve in the stomach, but pass through whole. I thought everyone knew about jelly (=jello in US).


[quote]Smart? There are other professions that yield way smarter individuals by all sorts of standards.

Yes, it is quite painful to think that I have more years of education, schooling (both formal and non-formal)and understanding of the principles of science under my belt than your average doctor does - and yet I make a pathetic fraction of what they make.

Yes, me too, plus I'm no stranger to controversy, one of my vocations is controversial day in day out. With those 2 skills I've been able to spot such a list of cockups, where most would just not question. But I have nothing against them for on pay: I chose to do what I do. Also doctoring, although not as skilled, is a very needed service. And I think, a pretty difficult job. Its easy to point out the cockups, but otoh I think it would be fairly demanding to do it right and be thorough. But then again - I live in the US where lots of money is equated with smart. (Can you spell D-U-M-B?). I gather income correlates with IQ upto a point, (130s?) but beyond that increasing iq correlates with falling income. However since over 99% of the population is below the 2nd bit of the curve, all they observe in daily life is more brains = more money. Why do people assume that everyone chooses to make as much as they can, with little or no regard for any other factor? I think because the bulk of people do live that way. I would far rather design new technology than lay bricks, but I could make more money bricklaying. When you have no real interests, it doesnt matter so much what you do, just go for money. Quote by: Lava, They run businesses, the purpose of which is to make large profits. No, it is not to heal the world, mission purpose No. 1 is money. Yes, they do. I know you are in the UK (right?) but in the US, it looks like 99,999% of them do it for this reason (money/prestige/God complex) and not to actually heal a vulnerable person. Just charge the hell out of him/her - after all, it's a dog-eat-dog world.

Yes, UK. Here the med school routine is pretty punishing, and there has to be a pot of money waiting for people to go through that. Once qualified the attitude is nearly always 'damn right youre gonna pay', and frankly I dont blame them, they were treated like crap for long enough for it.

If the market were opened more that would change. In a closed shop system, where the service is essential, prices are bound to hit the roof.


I'm not trying to pull docs apart with all this, just to get a bit more real for once. Theyre just people, like any other.


Lava!

[Lava]

I guess everyone else idolises their docs :)

Lava!

[syracusa]

Looks like it.

After the experiences I've had with the medical profession in this
country...I won't be one of those, for a long time to come.

[Lava]

me neither!

[Technosoul]

Hi, I agree totally.

They even wear those white robe things to look like Jesus in his his white robe. Like the "divine healer" of all our woes.
Part of the deceptive image.

Now lets look at some information a doctor might use and see how worthy it really is.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hecs-sesc/tobacco/f...rt_disease.html

They give a breif reason. and then add a bunch of stuff that states "percentages" but with no information about the study or how they came up with those percentage numbers. The public is expected to believe it on faith.

It is like I could do a study, and prove that 95 percent of all people who get heart attacks watch TV for a least two hours per day. So does watching TV the cause of the heart attack? Do you have a 95 percent greater chance of getting heart problems because you are exposed to TV programs? The fact is nearly everyone is exposed to the same TV activity just like nearly everyone is exposed to 2nd hand smoke.

Not withstanding that everyone would be exposed to carbon toxics from car tailpipes and that would have a far greater impact then 2nd hand smoke.

The heart must pump faster to get more H-2 o - well what about jogging or running? How can making you heart pump faster in sports be any different? But if the heart is healthy then pumping faster or slowing down would not be a problem no matter what caused it to do so. And the lungs would filter out most of the bad stuff anyway before it gets into the blood. Our body was constructed with that fire wall for a reason.

But is the doctor going to lecture you about getting exposed to car emssions? Is he going to ask you what chemicals you might be breathing as polution at your work place - other then ciggarette smoke?

Will he prescibe to the government that we need to prevent those illnesses by eliminating smog generating vehicles?
By regulating polutions in the work place?

One main problem is work related mental stress. Stress is one of the main causes - but a doctor deals in physical causes and so they avoid the topic of stress. Stress which can manifest as fear or hatred can directly effect the activities of the heart. But in the workplace - or being a mom with active kids, cannot find expression and that over stemuation make the heart act facter then it should for the realistic activity of the body. Now - how many people smoke to subdue stress? So if people use cigarettes as their medicene to deal with stress then you end up with the same percentages. All the smokers who get a heart attack are also suffering from stress. Even if it is peer pressure stress. So (1) stress causes smoking. (2) stress causes heart attacks. But doctors will blame the smoking and and say little about the root cause which is stress. Because stress is a mental problem which is not in their department to treat (physical doctors). Stress causes both the smoking and the heart attack but the "percentage" numbers did not take into account the reals source of stress, only that those people smoked, so they missed the point.

Also, the doctors are totally unaware of the political motivations for blaming smokers instead of oil companys or work related stress at the rich man's factory.

In their opinion you cannot prevent stress at the workplace, you cannot prevent our need for cars, you cannot prevent the chopping down of forests where trees produce clean air. But they say, we can prevent people from smoking.

Well, I have ranted enough for right now. whatcha think?

Technosoul,

[Technosoul]

PS - Moore who did the movie about 9-11 and Bush is now working on his next movie which will deal with doctors, HMOs, and drug companies. You can almost imagine what that movie will have to say.

help is on the way.

[syracusa]

What do I think...other than "preaching to the choir".
I really doubt that all these doctor-practitioners prescribing medication based on "studies" would be capable of reading and interpreting one of those studies with a critical eye.
Ask them about statistical significance, amount of variance explained, multicollinearity of variables used in the study, spuriosuness, heteroscedasticity and other methodology-related issues - just so that they check whether that's a serious study or just profit-oriented bullony - and they wouldn't be able to tell if their lives depended on it.

But let's trust pharmaceutical companies - bastions of unbiased scientific rigour - their scientists know BEST, especially those with lots of stock options in the company.

Needless to say I cannot wait to see Moore's next movie, just to soothe my soul a little bit.

[Technosoul]

It is rather interesting that smoking started off a religious ritual and was also prescribed by the tribes doctors to be used during debates - especially concerning treaties.

http://www.snowwowl.com/naartpipes.html

The Native American Peace Pipe prescibed by Indian medicene men is not under attack by our governmental medical establishment . Tobacco was a sacred plant used for prayers and to introduce peace of mind (anit-stress). And stress is the number one killer of our times.

Attacking tobacco is likewise a crusade agenest the shaman religion.

But the point is that tobacco started of as prescibed medicene, just like those other drugs that have deadly side effects for some people being advertised by the durg companies as a seditive for "nerves". (aka - stress).

They do not want you to take a smoking break because then you would not become upset by the boss and would not have to work off your resentments by working faster - to work off the extra energy of stress by being more productive or constructive.
Keeping you stressed out, with fear and anger, makes you more managable and controlable for the bosses manipulations.

Technosoul.

[Leebert]

Aren't we over-generalizing here? Obviously not all doctors fall into the category delineated in this thread. If it is true that doctors are like anyone else and are "fallible and foibled" then it must also be true that they can be caring, decent people who truly want to help their patients.
Not everyone in America has succumbed to the diseased and evil version of capitalism that is so pervasive in our country today. Some doctors do what they do because they genuinely care about the welfare of others and not because of the money.
Make no mistake, I whole-heartedly believe that each individual is ultimately responsible for their own well-being and life. To blindly place all your trust into the hands of another human being is inviting disaster no matter who that person is, whether it be a doctor, a priest, or a president.
I have had many unsatisfactory experiences with doctors in the past. But I have since learned that if I am not happy with the way a doctor is treating me I am free to go elsewhere and that is exactly what I have done. I was disgusted with my previous PCP because I would wait in his lobby for 30 minutes, then in the examination room for another 30 minutes, only to have him come in and pretend to be interested in my problems and concerns for about 3 minutes. So I found another PCP. Luckily he is quite attentive to my needs as an individual, is passionate about his work, and keeps abreast on the latest findings. Even though I am happy with my current doctor I still assume the ultimate responsibility for my health. I take it upon myself to learn about the medicines I take, my diet, my fitness and my conditions. If you aren't taking the same level of responsibility for yourself then don't blame it on some doctor, no matter how crappy they may be. If YOU can't take the time to care about yourself to begin with then you are most likely not going to take the time to find the right doctor for yourself either.
I also want to make a comment on the issue of malpractice suits. I live in Texas and recently a law was passed that puts severe limits on victims of bad healthcare. An arguably low cieling has been placed on remuneration for damages inflicted as well as other restrictions. The argument was that it would keep our medical bills low because malpractice insurance costs that are spiralling out of control due to inflated or false claims would finally stabalize. While the issue is far from being that simplistic I think the reasoning for the law is dubious at best and I have yet to see any decrease in my medical costs since it has been enacted. Like most laws of this nature I'm guessing it is truly benefiting the big businesses that "bought" the law via campaign doanations, special interest donations, etc.
I personally don't think the health industry has adequately evolved and adapted to the changes that have swept our world. Most doctors are attempting to conduct business in a manner that is essentially the same as it was centuries ago. Trying to adapt such an antiquated methodology to present-day problems is not possible. The scientific, medical, and especially technological advanced made in the past 50 years has exponentially increased the amount of information and knowledge that a doctor needs to understand and manage. Such a feat is simply not possible for a human being. I think this is one of the reasons we now seem to be suffering from so many breakdowns in our health care system. Like most things in life I am afraid that the situation will have to get worse before it gets better. The old beast must die before the new one can take its place.
One of the reasons my physician and my children's phsycisian are successful is because they have attempted to modernize their practices. My doctor always has a palm pilot that holds complete patient histories, databases of prescription drugs and their interactions, conditions and their symptoms, etc. The doctor's office my kids go to have gone completely paperless. Everyone carries around a PC tablet and they all have instantaneous and up-to-date data at all times.
Unfortunately there is a dark side to this as well. Immediacey to and transparency of such copious amounts of personal information isn't limited to well-meaning physicians. Derivatives of the technology are being implanted in the products we buy, billboards we see, and even into our own bodies. I suspect it is only a matter of time before it becomes mandatory that all babies are implanted with a personal data chip upon birth. Even now our government and corporations and hospitals are requiring some to have a rice-sized microchip implanted under their skin for security and informational purposes.
It may seem that I have digressed from the original issue but my point is that the solution to the problem of "bad doctors" and "medical mistakes" may be more ominous and worrisome than we suspect.
While there might not be some evil cabal explicitly attempting to rob us of our freedom via things like new technology (or the Patriot Act for that matter), I think circumstances and situations can slowly turn what initially appears to be an innocuous and beneficial intention into a tool used by those in power to further control and oppress those without the means to defend themselves, i.e. - You and I.

[Lava]

Lebert:
While there might not be some evil cabal explicitly attempting to rob us of our freedom via things like new technology (or the Patriot Act for that matter), I think circumstances and situations can slowly turn what initially appears to be an innocuous and beneficial intention into a tool used by those in power to further control and oppress those without the means to defend themselves, i.e. - You and I.


Once the tech is in use, there are all kinds of people on this planet, inevitably they will all have their own ideas about what to do with it.

The other problem is that well meaning authorities get careless, as we're seeing today with doctors.


Lava

[Lava]

Technosoul... I dont know how to put it. But I will address one point, one common myth.

We are living in the lowest stress times ever. We have the least to worry about that we've ever had. No wild animals coming to eat us to worry about, no trips to the woods in the dark to gather firewood, only needing to work 8 hrs a day, so having time for all those other things, we got welfare now which takes many fears away, lots of labour savers to make life easier going, far lses chance of getting killed in numerous ways, our children survive, we live over twice as long, the list goes on and on and on.

The stress counselling industry is just there to take advantage of people's failure to realise how damn lucky they are. We are living in the lowest stress times.

Lava

[Lava]

copy deleted

[syracusa]

This was a good post and I agree with most of what you said.

I have learnt the value of taking responsibilty for my own health, even learning about medicines, conditions, studies, etc - a lot of stuff that only med school people would have studied in the past.
Nowadays - you have to - otherwise you stand the chance of getting mega-screwed.

But then again, I have a PhD in a somewhat scientific field...so I don't find it teribly hard to make sense of, and keep up with all this medical stuff, studies, what sounds true and what is bullony, etc.

But are you sure that people with fewer educational resources would be equally capable of taking this kind of responsibility for their own health, just to keep the doctors in check?

If by taking responsibility you mean "don't stuff your face with fries and hamburgers and exercise", I agree. But beyond this - you need to be able to understand some scientific language...and not everyone has that advantage.

However, I am deeply convinced that the percentage of people who go to med school for money and prestige in today's US society far surpasses the percentage of those who go out of love and dedication for the profession, that is, those who have healing and doing good (out of pure humanity) as their primary purpose, as opposed to making a lot of money off of people's suffering.

[Lava]

Originally posted by Technosoul, It is like I could do a study, and prove that 95 percent of all people who get heart attacks watch TV for a least two hours per day. So does watching TV the cause of the heart attack? Do you have a 95 percent greater chance of getting heart problems because you are exposed to TV programs? The fact is nearly everyone is exposed to the same TV activity just like nearly everyone is exposed to 2nd hand smoke.

I think you'll find that science has a bit more clue than that. But it does get misused. I did one research project and it was something of an eyeopener.

Lava

[Lava]

Originally posted by syracusa, But then again, I have a PhD in a somewhat scientific field...so I don't find it teribly hard to make sense of, and keep up with all this medical stuff, studies, what sounds true and what is bullony, etc. But are you sure that people with fewer educational resources would be equally capable of taking this kind of responsibility for their own health, just to keep the doctors in check? If by taking responsibility you mean "don't stuff your face with fries and hamburgers and exercise", I agree. But beyond this - you need to be able to understand some scientific language...and not everyone has that advantage.

Nail on head again. Few have enough scientific awareness to spot theres anything wrong. And it takes more than just sci knowledge imho, there are social ideas we're brought up to believe that one has to dismantle and get right as well. Also is required the desire to get informed on stuff rather than take an expert's word. One has to learn to be a bit more grown up and apply caution, rather than relate like a child. One also has to get comfortable dealing with controversy. Few get there. And few can even get their head round it if you tell them theres anything wrong IME. It is simply assumed that one could not possibly know something about the subject that the doctor doesnt.

And some people pay for their ignorance with their lives.


Lava

[Leebert]

While not everyone will have the intellect or education to take responsibility for their lives in that aspect most of us have consciences and/or at least a dash of common sense. Most of us have a little alarm that goes off when we feel something is not right. Most of us have no problem going back to the counter to b*tch out the teenager behind the cash register for not cutting the onions on our big mac so why should we balk when it comes to taking steps to preserve our health? It certainly doesn't take a degree to realize that no one will care about you as much as yourself.

I guess my point is that we are responsible for ourselves no matter our education and we are only relieved of that when we don't have the mental capacity to do as such; i.e. -- too young, insanity, retardation, etc.