should we give money to the poor?

[Waychel]

I can think of many logical methods of social reform at the benefit of the poor that make a great deal of more sense than giving them large sums of money to spend on their other recreational activities such as meth labs. LOL...

[castille]

The real question is:

Those who claim to be generous, are you just throwing a few dollars at the beggars on the street, or are you actually spending your time and energy helping them?


Speaking of which, in China 90% of beggars are actually controlled by the Triads (the Chinese mafia). The Triads would usually get a stray kid off the street, maybe beat him a bit (to make him a sorry site), and put him on the street to beg for money. At the end of the day the kid has to give all the money to the triads and keep a few cents.

[Nono]

Originally posted by castille
... in China 90% of beggars are actually controlled by the Triads ...

Did you call up the Ministry of Statistics for that one? :)

OK, the triads are a great Chinese institution. But all societies have similar groups, and they certainly thrive on poverty.

In the affluent country where I live, a guy was rescued from the streets this past week: a legless Slovak who had had his passport stolen and been put out on the sidewalk by the thieves to beg, having to hand over his daily earnings to his 'protectors'. I tell ya.

Which goes to show that alms-giving isn't the solution.

[Lava]

I believe charity is one of the components of a happy and successful life. I think Scribbler's post helps illustrate that.

The poor come in all sorts of course. There are those honest and trying to sort things out, there are drug addicts, there are those with good minds, and idiots and mentally ill, all sorts. Some can be helped to a better life, some will never do ok, so much so that they will always need help.

Lava

[Nono]

Originally posted by Scribbler
... it made me feel good ... I'm not patting myself on the back here. Just showing how positive a thing giving can be when you do it yourself for your own reasons.

More power to you -- most people would drive out of their way in order not to have to perceive that the homeless exist.

By your own account, at least part of your motivation was to ease your conscience. And the guys benefited from a nice treat and the knowledge that some people do care.

But charity is a bandaid. While I'm not claiming that there's an absolute cure for poverty, enough experience has been gained over the last half-century in Europe and North America (and some of the Asian Tigers as well) to show that wealth can be shifted around in society in a targeted manner that addresses the roots of the problem. Yes, I'm talking Tax and Spend (shock! horror!) but as an investment, not just throwing money at the problem.

Unfortunately, we're all being sung the Neoliberal Lullaby these days: they're poor because they're lazy; amassing wealth is virtuous (speaking of China); your wealth will "trickle down"; etc. Well, bullshit.

[Nono]

Originally posted by Lava
Some can be helped to a better life, some will never do ok, so much so that they will always need help.

Fair enough. There's plenty of scope for working with the first category.

[Lava]

Originally posted by Nono,
Which goes to show that alms-giving isn't the solution.

it doesnt show anything of the sort.

[Nono]

It follows that you're saying alms-giving is the solution (or let's say the best available). Care to explain how that works?

[Lava]

Originally posted by Nono,

But charity is a bandaid. While I'm not claiming that there's an absolute cure for poverty, enough experience has been gained over the last half-century in Europe and North America (and some of the Asian Tigers as well) to show that wealth can be shifted around in society in a targeted manner that addresses the roots of the problem. Yes, I'm talking Tax and Spend (shock! horror!) but as an investment, not just throwing money at the problem.

Charity is what keeps many of those people alive actually. Its that simple. There is an underclass of people so messed up they really cant sort out their own problems, even to the extent of basics like food and shelter.

People who call them lazy often dont get that - though is true some at least are there from laziness.

Here in Europe we've addressed the problem by state mandated handouts. If you dont work you get about 55 a week (about 75usd) to live on plus a small room paid for as well. Too much money IMO, but better than folks having nothing.

As for solving the problem any other way, I dont thnik you can. There is a range of reasons why people are where they are, and mental problems and idiocy are nearly insoluble. At best, some programs can sort things out for a minority.


Lava

[Lava]

Originally posted by Nono,
It follows that you're saying alms-giving is the solution (or let's say the best available). Care to explain how that works?

Sure. If you dont give, they starve.

Or engage in crime that costs you far more than the handouts would - as happens in US a lot.


Lava

[Nono]

Originally posted by Nono+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nono)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> As for giving alms (pizza, blankets, etc.) it will keep them from starving or freezing to death. But they&#39;ll still be on the street. Somebody has to redistribute the wealth, and that ain&#39;t gonna be the Salvation Army. Only government.[/b]

Hey Lava, I agree with you.

<!--QuoteBegin-Lava
There is an underclass of people so messed up they really cant sort out their own problems, even to the extent of basics like food and shelter.[/quote]

Very true. And charity is the best you can do for them, precisely because there&#39;s no real solution to their problem. I&#39;m talking about problems that can be solved, that deserve something more than a bandaid.

As for solving the problem any other way, I dont thnik you can. There is a range of reasons why people are where they are, and mental problems and idiocy are nearly insoluble.

Beyond a certain point. Europe is vast and varied. But on the streets of North America (and I include the 51st state...) there&#39;s a lot of wasted potential. Apart from anything else, there&#39;s a black underclass in the US (about 10% of the population) that would do a lot better in different conditions. (I&#39;m not necessarily talking about government handouts there.)

[Nono]

Originally posted by Nono
Europe is vast and varied.

Come to think of it, in its way the EU has just embarked on a colossal wealth-distribution scheme: this year&#39;s expansion. And last week&#39;s declaration of Turkish eligibility takes that a giant step further.
Ain&#39;t saying I&#39;m personally completely comfortable with it, but there you go.