Dr. Phil

[Mia]

He is actually having a productive show this evening, doing what he does well. Not that 'just for ratings crap' that I saw when he first hit the air.

If you want to watch too, it's about ADD and whether to medicate, and further, whether all these kids and even adults are truly ADD as diagnosed, or merely anxious, depressed, etc.

I believe the latter is quite often the case. Half of these 'disorders', and 'mental illnesses' are starting to sound made up to me.

It's easier to make up a label and slap it on anyone who looks remotely like it, and then just throw pills at it to make it seem, key word 'seem', better.

What do you think?

[Iluvatar]

I tend to agree with you, from an intuitive standpoint. On the other hand, a huge number of credible psycologists, who've spent years studying this, think otherwise. We can say what it looks like, but we really have no evidence that ADD diagnosees are not legitemate.

[Mulkaccino]

I was an ADHD kid myself, and grew up in a time where teacher we're just coming to understand it. I'm really on the line with this subject. On one hand, it really helped me out. On the other hand, it surpressed my abhorrent individualist personality and turned me into a nice shy little school system conformist boy. The catch is I wouldn't have made it through school without meds (public school at least). The principle was my best friend pre-med (everyday). After, I was shinny success story.

Is it made up? No. Is it over diagnosed? Yes. Are meds appropriate for some people. Yes. Ae meds appropriate for all people. No.

Did anyone watch the Dr Phil show? I'm interested in what he had to say.

[Leebert]

My wife has been teaching 2nd and 3rd grade for 8 years now so she has real-world, in-the-trehnches experience with this issue. If you were to ask her she would tell you that the answer won't be found in one extreme or the other but instead lies somewhere in between. It's a proven fact that children have different learning styles and learning needs. She has found that some kids who are bouncing of the walls respond to solutions as simple as being allowed to stand up while doing their work or holding a squeeze ball while at their desks. For other children she has seen that if they miss their medication they turn into uncontrollable psychopaths. And no amount of effort to adapt to their learning style changes the situation.

On one hand, the single greatest contributing factor to the well-being of a kid, my wife would tell you, is homelife stability. She used to teach at one school where 17 of her 20 kids were considered "at risk". They came from homes where one, or both, of the parents were in prison, or where the only food they ate was the food they got from school, or where they spent their time at home caring for their younger siblings. She teaches at a school now where things are just the opposite. 17 of her 20 kids are considered "normal" and they all have stable homelives. They have parents who are involved in the lives of their children: they help with homework, take part in school and community activities, etc.

On the other hand, my wife and I also strongly believe that we have slowly been poisoning ourselves and our children due to the way we have damaged the environment we live in. I think a lot of the psychological problems we are dealing with today are either caused by, or are at least exacerbated by, physiological defeciencies or imbalances. It is naive to think that consuming produce covered in poison, or eating meat and animal byproducts from creatures who are pumped full of hormones and steroids and who are fed their own dead, or bombarding ourselves with radiation of every kind will have no ill effect on us.

Invariably, one of the factors that gets mentioned whenever there is a discussion on the decline of the Roman empire is how many of the citizens, especially the affluent senators, were suffering from lead poisoning and it was causing serious pysocological harm. What makes one think that modern man is somehow immune to such dangers? The term "mad hatter" or "mad as a hatter" was born during the industrial revolution. In the process of creating hats mercury was used to treat the felt that was used. The hatters breathed in "mercury steam" all day long. Just as people in that time period were ignorant of the harmful effects of some of their activities so to are we ignorant of the harmful effects of some of our activities.

My life has been COMPLETELY changed because of the medication I take. I'm 33 years old and it has only been in the past 3 years that I have truly felt like a person...like "myself." At the same time my friend's daughter almost killed herself because when she was on medication she began hearing voices that were telling her to harm herself.

There is no easy, clear answer to this problem; like most things in life, it is fraught with ambiguity.

[castille]

In my days (5 years ago) we didn't have new diseases like ADHD and DJH and FDFDSFDS.

If somebody didn't pay attention in class they got a caning. We didn't throw little blue pills at people. We beat them upside the head with a ruler.

[Leebert]

At one time we also thought the Earth was flat and that the we were the center of the universe. At one time we thought women and blacks shouldn't be allowed to vote. At one time we thought immunizations were a rediculous idea.

My point is that we learn new things about ourselves and our environment that cause us to change the way we think and live. What's yours Castille?

[Mia]

Originally posted by Leebert, My wife has been teaching 2nd and 3rd grade for 8 years now so she has real-world, in-the-trehnches experience with this issue. If you were to ask her she would tell you that the answer won't be found in one extreme or the other but instead lies somewhere in between. It's a proven fact that children have different learning styles and learning needs. She has found that some kids who are bouncing of the walls respond to solutions as simple as being allowed to stand up while doing their work or holding a squeeze ball while at their desks. For other children she has seen that if they miss their medication they turn into uncontrollable psychopaths. And no amount of effort to adapt to their learning style changes the situation. I'M NOT TRYING TO YELL. I HAVE A HARD TIME USING THE QUOTE FEATURE FROM THE LAPTOP WITH LITTLE TIME. THE CAPS ARE TO DESIGNATE MY RESPONSE. WHAT YOU SAID IS WHAT DR. PHIL WAS TELLING THE PARENTS AND TEACHERS. HE WAS A LIASON, IF YOU WILL, HELPING EACH SIDE UNDERSTAND THE OTHER, AND COME UP WITH SOLUTIONS FOR THE PARENTS, TEACHERS, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE AFFECTED CHILDREN. On one hand, the single greatest contributing factor to the well-being of a kid, my wife would tell you, is homelife stability. She used to teach at one school where 17 of her 20 kids were considered "at risk". They came from homes where one, or both, of the parents were in prison, or where the only food they ate was the food they got from school, or where they spent their time at home caring for their younger siblings. She teaches at a school now where things are just the opposite. 17 of her 20 kids are considered "normal" and they all have stable homelives. They have parents who are involved in the lives of their children: they help with homework, take part in school and community activities, etc. On the other hand, my wife and I also strongly believe that we have slowly been poisoning ourselves and our children due to the way we have damaged the environment we live in. I think a lot of the psychological problems we are dealing with today are either caused by, or are at least exacerbated by, physiological defeciencies or imbalances. It is naive to think that consuming produce covered in poison, or eating meat and animal byproducts from creatures who are pumped full of hormones and steroids and who are fed their own dead, or bombarding ourselves with radiation of every kind will have no ill effect on us. Invariably, one of the factors that gets mentioned whenever there is a discussion on the decline of the Roman empire is how many of the citizens, especially the affluent senators, were suffering from lead poisoning and it was causing serious pysocological harm. What makes one think that modern man is somehow immune to such dangers? The term "mad hatter" or "mad as a hatter" was born during the industrial revolution. In the process of creating hats mercury was used to treat the felt that was used. The hatters breathed in "mercury steam" all day long. Just as people in that time period were ignorant of the harmful effects of some of their activities so to are we ignorant of the harmful effects of some of our activities. My life has been COMPLETELY changed because of the medication I take. I'm 33 years old and it has only been in the past 3 years that I have truly felt like a person...like "myself." At the same time my friend's daughter almost killed herself because when she was on medication she began hearing voices that were telling her to harm herself. There is no easy, clear answer to this problem; like most things in life, it is fraught with ambiguity.

[Leebert]

Hehe, at first I didn't notice your response in the quote and I was thinking, "What is this person doing?!?!?!"

Originally posted by Mia, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE AFFECTED CHILDREN.

That is what it all boils down to: the child is what is important. But without being fully aware of it I think our society has deeply engrained in us the automatic response to objectify our children. Without even realizing it we relegate our children to the role of "posession" in our households. The state views them as test scores. Corporations view them as profit generators. But they aren't. Children are human beings! As a parent I have always had to remind myself that my kid is not me or an extension of me. My kid is an individual human being who is seperate from me, a unique personality, and who has unique desires and goals. My kid deserves to be treated and respected like a human being just like any other person on this planet. My kid has just as much to offer as anyone else on the planet.

When you look at children in that light you see them less as things that need to be fixed (whether it be by medication or by a smack to the bottom) and more like human beings that need you and that are relying on you to help them with things that they cannot cope with on their own. And you also begin to realize that who you are and what you do shapes them 24-7.

When a child has a problem the first place you should be looking to find the source of and solution to that problem is at yourself.

[Lava]

One phrase caught my eye, 'uncontrollable psychopaths.' I think there lies the problem, in the fact that the kids have not been controlled. Every person needs control to achieve anything. In our infant years we get parental control, we learn to do as we're told or there will be pain to pay. We go to school and get controlled, made to do activities for increasing amounts of time, thus building up our ability to work, ie control ourselves. The more you want to achieve, the more it takes, and so the more self control you need.

'Uncontrollable psychopaths' are simply kids that have not learnt this control. Theyre either the product of inadequate parenting, or in some cases their own inadequate selves. Militaristic discipline works well with uncontrollable psychopaths, so does caning.

I dont like caning at all, but I'm coming to think there is a small out of control minority that need it or something similar in order to be brought to self control. With no self control, life is real hard.

Psychopaths can live successfully in the world if they learn self control. It does take far more discipline behaviour to teach them how to live ok though, since they lack the concerns that the rest of us have.


Lava!

[Mia]

Lava, your last paragraph is so true, and that is what puts the rest of us in danger.

A psychopath can have not only self-control, but the ability to put on a face that gains them access to whatever they want and need to carry out evil actions.

Was it Ted Bundy that was so good-looking and charming and wrapped everyone around his finger?

Raping and killing girls all over, everywhere he went.

[castille]

Originally posted by Leebert, At one time we also thought the Earth was flat and that the we were the center of the universe. At one time we thought women and blacks shouldn't be allowed to vote. At one time we thought immunizations were a rediculous idea. My point is that we learn new things about ourselves and our environment that cause us to change the way we think and live. What's yours Castille?

In 1933, a new political party came to idea with new revolutionary ideas. They called it "National Socialism". Since it was new, it was correct right?

My point is not all new ideas are good. This new concept of labelling people with various new diseases isn't exactly good.

Oh dear, I think you've got DIDHFDSFKLHDSFJDSHFDS. Take a pill.

[Lava]

Mia, absolutely.

Psychopaths grow up in a world where they dont relate in the slightest to the concern shown by people around them. They also see its how people get their way, and get acceptance, so it is normal for psychopaths to see it as a game, a manipulation tool, and one everyone uses. We care for real, psychopaths prentend to care because its the game everyone expects them to play. People really give them a rough response any time they get a bit more honest, so they dont do that any more than very rarely. To a psychopath, getting honest is entirely socially unacceptable. This is one reason its so difficult to understand their actions and thoughts, they will /not/ get real with you, ever.

Psys dont realise theyre difrent to the rest of us, they dont realise we're not acting. We dont realise theyre any different because they act just like us 99.9% of the time.

Its that .1% of the time when they suddenly pull some outrageous shit that, if youre aware, you see whats really going on in there.

Psys and normies are truly worlds apart, yet we mix and mingle with them every day without even knowing it. They smile like anyone else.

I very much agree with you, they are truly dangerous people.


Regards, Lava

[Lava]

This looks interesting:

Quote:
Dr. Hare has published numerous articles and book chapters on psychopathy,
as well as two books: Psychopathy: Theory and Research (1970) and Without
Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us (1993,
reissued 1999). He addresses international audiences on every facet of
psychopathy, from personality assessment to risk factors to psychopaths
among us. While they may appear to be normal members of society, they're
anything but. In fact, Hare believes, they are society's most destructive
and dangerous type of person. If it's true that psychopaths make up one
percent of the population, as he estimates, then we need to pay attention.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/.../2.html?sect=19

Lava

[Lava]

This looks interesting:

Quote:
Dr. Hare has published numerous articles and book chapters on psychopathy,
as well as two books: Psychopathy: Theory and Research (1970) and Without
Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us (1993,
reissued 1999). He addresses international audiences on every facet of
psychopathy, from personality assessment to risk factors to psychopaths
among us. While they may appear to be normal members of society, they're
anything but. In fact, Hare believes, they are society's most destructive
and dangerous type of person. If it's true that psychopaths make up one
percent of the population, as he estimates, then we need to pay attention.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/.../2.html?sect=19

Lava

[Mia]

Lava, you have fantastic insight and knowledge that I need.

In 'Mia's tales', you will find out about three psychopaths making my life quite difficult right now.

Do you mind looking? It's in general discussion. Thanks.

[Lava]

This looks interesting:

Quote:
Dr. Hare has published numerous articles and book chapters on psychopathy,
as well as two books: Psychopathy: Theory and Research (1970) and Without
Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us (1993,
reissued 1999). He addresses international audiences on every facet of
psychopathy, from personality assessment to risk factors to psychopaths
among us. While they may appear to be normal members of society, they're
anything but. In fact, Hare believes, they are society's most destructive
and dangerous type of person. If it's true that psychopaths make up one
percent of the population, as he estimates, then we need to pay attention.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/.../2.html?sect=19

Lava

[Leebert]

Originally posted by castille, My point is not all new ideas are good. This new concept of labelling people with various new diseases isn't exactly good.

I completely agree with you that not all new ideas are good. Like I said...the answer lies somewhere between the two extremes. Some people are mis-diagnosed and don't need to be taking a pill. But some people do benefit and I'm a case in point.

I began to realize there was something not quite right with me back when I was about 9. I dealt with depression, extreme moodswings, and lack of energy just about every day of my life. It wasn't until I was around 20 that I started to earnestly try and "fix" myself. But no matter how hard I tried it was as if my very body was working against me. The harder I pushed with my intentions and desires to be better the harder my body and mind pushed back. About 2 years ago I decided to ask my doctor if I could try medication. This was a very big deal to me because I had always maintained that taking a pill would not solve anything. I was raised on the belief that it just takes "hard work and elbow grease". It took me about 9 months to realize how foolish that attitude was. Ask my family, or especially my wife, what I was like post-medication compared to now.

Where I had been putting forth tremendous amounts of effort to "think right" and "act right" and "have energy" before but always failed for years on end I now don't even really give it a thought...because my body isn't working against me and these things come to me naturally now, like they do for most people. This medication HAS NOT doped me up, dampened my personality, or turned me into a drone. This medication HAS provided me with a physiology that now works in harmony with and responds to my desires and efforts.

Do I still get angry? Yes. Do I still get frustrated? Yes. Do I still get depressed? Yes. Do I still get tired? Yes. But now these things happen to me like they do to most people. I don't have to deal with their crushing weight on a chronic, daily basis. I'm no longer consumed by confusion and a feeling that I should just die. To me, that was not living...that was a slow, agonizing suicide in which I made everyone around me miserable.

I don't think of myself as a stupid person. While pursuing my degree in Computer Science I fulfilled my science requirements by taking courses like Neuroscience, a field that studies exactly what we are talking about here. I know how these medicines interact with the brain, I truly appreciate just how complex our bodies are, and I've seen the physiological connections to psychological problems. In truth, the present-day medicines we take for these problems are rather archaic. They take a shotgun approach to fixing the problem. There are so many varialbes and unkowns that there just isn't much precision involved. So there is A LOT of room for error and variation in results. But they do work.

In the end it boils down to responsibility. We must realize that a lot of "mis-diagnosed" children simply have parents who don't want to be bothered with raising their kids and dealing with all the problems that go along with it. Like anything else, this gets abused because people don't think for themselves...they don't take the time to learn about what they are putting in their mouth or weigh the consequences of their actions.

I think I've gone on long enough. Thanks for the comments Castille!