Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Iluvatar · Sep 28, 2004, 08:10 am

My question to you is this: Should suicide be legal? Why?

It's currently illegal in most states. You can't really stop someone who is set on it, but should people be allowed to take thier own lives? What do you think? I'll post my opinions in a bit.

Paavo · Sep 28, 2004, 08:29 am

I think it's obviously not a thing for governments to decide over, as one who's going to take his/her own life - will do so, legal or not.

Compugasm · Sep 28, 2004, 09:51 am

Sure, something better than disconnecting a feeding tube though. Starving to death doesn't sound all that humane.

Iluvatar · Sep 28, 2004, 08:16 pm

I've found a surprising number of otherwise intelligent people who believe that suicide should be illegal. I was hoping for some opposition here, but not geting it.

giuliano · Sep 29, 2004, 09:33 am

i think the legal authorities realise prohibiting it by law will not deter people who want to commit it. i would say the real reason it is illegal is to give law enforcement officers legal grounds to forcibly restrain people in the process of attempting suicide, eg. breaking and entering their home, stopping them from jumping off a bridge.

technically, they couldn't do that if it was legal, which would be truly ridiculous.

Samildanach · Sep 29, 2004, 11:51 am

I have never understood the argument that suicide should be illegal, its every individuals right to decide how long they wish to live. Its right up there with basic human rights if you ask me.

harumscarum · Sep 29, 2004, 12:23 pm

I would rather see a diagnosis of a person’s psychological state rather then just allowing them to kill themselves. A person may be going through a rough time and maybe just needs a glimpse of hope or care.

Suicide is a cop out and does not force a person to deal with an issue. I would much rather see someone stay alive and suffer then just die. If they are alive they at least have a chance of improving their mental state. If they are dead you can not do so.

Suburbanite · Sep 30, 2004, 04:32 am

Suicide is horrible, as it is a product of a weak man (on par with being stupid or being useless), but as far as the government is concerned, cmon, who cares?

Samildanach · Sep 30, 2004, 08:30 am

If you ask me if someone wants to kill themselves let them, diagnosis of psychological state is irrelevant. If their genes have programmed them to want to commit suicide them let them go right ahead. In most cases its a form of attention seeking and for the few who do then we are removing weak members from the gene pool anyway. If a person has run into a sitation they can't deal with then again, go commit suicide just do it somewhere I can't see and not in my house so you mess up the carpet if people want to be weak then thats their business. Its not like we are suffering a shortage of human beings on the planet.

Waychel · Oct 1, 2004, 03:01 am

I think that to make suicide legal would be to make euthanasia legal, which brings into question a whole other level of humanitarian issues altogether. I also do not think that the taking of one's life in dire times is something that should be condoned on either a social or political level, considering it affects people other than the suicide..ee(?) both emotionally, economically and sometimes physically. To legalize this would also bring into question the need for social institutions that help people dealing with depression and thoughts of suicide.

I just see no benefit at all and think that it would create more problems than it would fix. Then again, my personal views also make me bias considering that I abhor suicide and find it one of the most dispicable and selfish acts that anyone can commit...

Samildanach · Oct 1, 2004, 06:09 am

I am not a fan of it but I respect people who do want to go kill themselves. I don't see what gives others the right to force a person to go on living longer than they want to.
I see it as two things, on one hand its an extremely weak person who buckles to the urge to kill themselves, on the other hand they are pretty brave as well, its a fairly scary thing doing something like holding a gun to your head and knowing in about thre seconds you aren't going to be there anymore and half your head is going to be splattered over the wall. Brave but weak. Its an odd combination.

Lava · Oct 1, 2004, 06:52 am

hi

Giuliano:
> i would say the real reason it is illegal is to give law enforcement officers legal grounds to forcibly restrain people in the process of attempting suicide, eg. breaking and entering their home, stopping them from jumping off a bridge.

Thats clever. Of course the law could also be written so suicide is legal, but it is part of the police's job to stop suiciders, and they may use the same means as to stop a serious crime.

It makes no sense to me to prosecute someone for attempting suicide, thats the bit I dislike about the law.

harumscarum:
> I would rather see a diagnosis of a person?s psychological state rather then just allowing them to kill themselves.

IIUC a suicidal state is basically a severe depression, where no hope is left. The standard of diagnosis of depression today is barely credible, I would not for a moment want to see life and death decisions based on such a hopelessly low standard of science.

> A person may be going through a rough time and maybe just needs a glimpse of hope or care.

I think thats most often the case. Given that solution, I'm not clear how a 'diagnosis of a person?s psychological state' would help with that.

> If they are alive they at least have a chance of improving their mental state. If they are dead you can not do so.

I think suicide is done in order to improve one's mental state. There are worse things than death.

Suburbanite:
> Suicide is horrible, as it is a product of a weak man (on par with being stupid or being useless),

I dont think so, more a case of humans can only take so much. When depression sets in, even the will to do anything is lost, thus the appearance of weakness. I think suicide is basically the end result of an unsucessful way of living, a life of problems caused and a lack of the tools to address and resolve them.

> but as far as the government is concerned, cmon, who cares?

You tell me. If your kid goes through a suicidal patch, do you care if they make it through? Do you care if the government agencies stop them or leave them to it? You must be american.

Samildanach:
> In most cases its a form of attention seeking

I agree that only a minority that try it are really serious. Thus if we save people from dying by physical rescue, hospital etc, we save many lives that turn out positively later on. That is one of the problems with the 'just let them' approach.

In most cases people feel suicidal but just arent willing to actually do it. From the ones I've seen, only a minority were seeking attention.

> and for the few who do then we are removing weak members from the gene pool anyway.

thats not a positive argument in favour of it though. Most of us are 'weak members' of the gene pool in that without intervention most of us would not be alive today. Most of us are only still alive because of medical and educational input in our lives. The argument for removing those that cant make it on their own does not hold water in any way. The whole point of life is that we do get a shot, we do get the chance to survive and do the best we can. The notion of somehow 'improving' the gene pool by mass death is not the point of life at all.

> If a person has run into a sitation they can't deal with then again, go commit suicide just do it somewhere I can't see

dont any of you guys have kids? Parents? Friends?

> Its not like we are suffering a shortage of human beings on the planet.

population number is a non issue. You dont make life and death decisions on the basis of whether there are 'enough' people alive already, whatever that may actually mean.

Waychel:
> I think that to make suicide legal would be to make euthanasia legal,

surely we have the choice of whether to make one legal or both, no?

> I abhor suicide and find it one of the most dispicable and selfish acts that anyone can commit...

I've worked with a fair few suicidals, and I dont see it as a selfishness thing myself. From what I see, consideration of others is usually a big issue for them, and regularly is the only thing left that stops them doing it. Naturally there are all kinds, so there will always be some shellfish, just as in the rest of the population.

I think its more a question of how much a person can take. People arent made of steel, and even steel has its limits. And how much one has to endure depends on how one deals with problems: suicidals are often not very good at that. Note that does not make it a genetic weakness, since many go on to learn how to live more succesfully.

Regards, Lava!

Waychel · Oct 1, 2004, 04:31 pm

Quote:

Waychel:
> I think that to make suicide legal would be to make euthanasia legal,

surely we have the choice of whether to make one legal or both, no?

In my opinion, this would be a very difficult thing to do, and an even more difficult thing to defend from having activists of euthanasia amend upon. Keep in mind that there are more people actively in the support of euthanasia (more for economic than emotional reasons) than there are in support of having suicide itself (regardless of circumstance) become legal.

I believe that such wording would come down to a person having the right to choose death so long as they are in their right state of mind; regardless of whether or not they are in control of themselves physically. However, this would bring into question whether a person was in a healthy psychological state to be demanding their right to suicide in the first place (considering that it does, afterall, go against the most basic of human drives; the will to survive)... a Catch 22.

Who knows, theoretically I suppose the chance exists that we could make suicide legal and euthanasia illegal... but from my own prospective, it is just highly unlikely.

Quote:

> I abhor suicide and find it one of the most dispicable and selfish acts that anyone can commit...

I think its more a question of how much a person can take. People arent made of steel, and even steel has its limits. And how much one has to endure depends on how one deals with problems: suicidals are often not very good at that. Note that does not make it a genetic weakness, since many go on to learn how to live more succesfully.

I do not despise people for having suicidal thoughts, because it is natural when we are dealing with the most desperate of times to have the most desperate of thoughts occure to us in the hope of escaping our conditions. But the key point that you have made here is that, "many suicidals go on to learn how to live life more succesfully." This, to me, is key point as to why suicide should never be allowed to become legal. If we can have such an optomistic mindset regarding something so morbid as the legality of suicide and the illegality of euthanasia, then how can we not hold that same optomism for the majority of those with thoughts of suicide? As long as the possibility exists that these people can be helped, I believe that it is more humanitarian for this to remain illegal so that people may be restrained, counseled and given that help.

EDIT: Yikes, what's with the boards today? I was afraid this would end up as a double post because I had to enter it about 5 times. o_o;

m5lange1 · Oct 2, 2004, 04:28 pm

I THINK SUICIDE SHOULD BE A CAPITOL OFFENSE WITH NO CHANCE FOR APPEAL!!!!!

This keeps it from being a one liner

Lava · Oct 5, 2004, 07:45 am

QUOTE Waychel:

> I think that to make suicide legal would be to make euthanasia legal,

>>surely we have the choice of whether to make one legal or both, no?[/quote]

>In my opinion, this would be a very difficult thing to do,

I see your point, but I still think we could if we chose. A required procedure could always be put in place to check the person really did want to go, it strikes me that one can indeed distinguish, if we wish.

> Keep in mind that there are more people actively in the support of euthanasia (more for economic than emotional reasons) than there are in support of having suicide itself (regardless of circumstance) become legal.

I've heard this from political quarters before, and have never bought it. I can be a cynical one at times, but I dont seriously believe that a majority of famililes would kill their family members for economic reasons. I'm afraid I can see no credibility in that one.

> I believe that such wording would come down to a person having the right to choose death so long as they are in their right state of mind; regardless of whether or not they are in control of themselves physically.

Why would they have to be in right state of mind? Suicide is most wanted among those who are not in right state of mind. Such is painful!

> However, this would bring into question whether a person was in a healthy psychological state to be demanding their right to suicide in the first place (considering that it does, afterall, go against the most basic of human drives; the will to survive)... a Catch 22.

I would be quite happy to leave the requirement for sanity out of it myself, but maybe a required time period to get clear on things would help. Quickie suicides worry me, but something thought out over a period of time I could respect. Whether the person is sane or not, they know what life feels like for them.

But I dont like the idea of such a requirement in such a desperate situation, I'd sooner let people do what they want to do with their lives. It seems gross to try to take away even life and death decisions from people, and place them in the lap of some bunch of idiots instead. Bear in mind that perspectives and values vary enormously, and committees considering something for a brief amount of time routinely fail to comprehend whats at play.

> I do not despise people for having suicidal thoughts, because it is natural when we are dealing with the most desperate of times to have the most desperate of thoughts occure to us in the hope of escaping our conditions. But the key point that you have made here is that, "many suicidals go on to learn how to live life more succesfully." This, to me, is key point as to why suicide should never be allowed to become legal. If we can have such an optomistic mindset regarding something so morbid as the legality of suicide and the illegality of euthanasia, then how can we not hold that same optomism for the majority of those with thoughts of suicide?

I dont think thats logical. Some suicidals just need some emotional and practical support, and some are very clearly beyond all human help, and need to be allowed to do what they want right away, eg people dying in awful pain from cancer. I'm not sure that which is majority or minority makes any difference. To deliberately make those I care about suffer horrendously simply because the law is an ass is something truly offensive. If you did that to an animal you'd risk going to prison for it, but with humans, they must suffer to the max, when everyone knows there is no chance of relief - other than a peaceful relief they have already accepted, death.

For those staring death in the face, a real problem is often those others who can not accept death as an option, when in reality it is, and in many cases is the only option on the table.

> As long as the possibility exists that these people can be helped, I believe that it is more humanitarian for this to remain illegal so that people may be restrained, counseled and given that help.

now it should be clear why thats illogical.

Perhaps the best choice is to let you decide how to run your life, let me decide how to run mine, and extend that same basic respect to others as well. Its ok for people to do it differently, and without seeking other people's approval.

Regards, NT

Sandy · Oct 5, 2004, 05:17 pm

First of all let me explain that I have been a Hospice worker for many years. I have stayed by the bedsides of terminal patients watching them put up with pain that in itself can kill the soul quicker than it kills the body. Hospice is fairly new to America and the people involved (the patients) are allowed to die any way they want. They can be drugged, starved, it is up to them.

I joined up with the Death with Dignity in California and worked with getting assisted suicide on the Ballot in Oregon where it passed, California where it nearly passed and Arizona where we are still working on it. If a patient has been certified by several doctors that they are terminal and have little quality time left they should be allowed to die by having their doctor prescribe the medication that will help them die quietly and with dignity.

It is working very well in Oregon and people are actually moving to that state when they find themselves with horrible killers like Lou Gerhigs disease or bone cancers, Huntington's Chorea: I'm talking out of control pain! I don't think the government or even anyone else in the person's life should have the authority to stop the action of dying with the same kind of dignity these people lived.

Attorney General John Ashcroft is trying to stop the doctors from prescribing the meds that will end the lives of their patients and old St. John is a damn fool. He and Bush are trying to run the government from the rules found in the bible. This is just plain wrong, undignified and unbearably cruel.

There's a lot of paper work that needs to be done before a doctor will write the meds. A psychological evaluation needs to be made. The next of kin must approve and several doctors must agree the patient has little quality time left. We put our beloved pets down and our family members deserve the same consideration.

Waychel · Oct 5, 2004, 05:18 pm

Quote:

I see your point, but I still think we could if we chose. A required procedure could always be put in place to check the person really did want to go, it strikes me that one can indeed distinguish, if we wish.

Why would a person want to kill themselves? Depression? Chemical imbalance? Are these justifiable reasons for a person to take their own life? What about the circumstances they have endured? Could the depression in dealing with these circumstances not be overcome? I fail to see why suicide should be an option when a solution is likely available as an alternative to this.

Once again, I fail to see how under any of these circumstances a person would be in their right state of mind in seeking suicide.

Quote:

I've heard this from political quarters before, and have never bought it. I can be a cynical one at times, but I dont seriously believe that a majority of famililes would kill their family members for economic reasons. I'm afraid I can see no credibility in that one.

Here's a scenario: Jack's grandmother Jill owns an estate worth $500,000. One day, Jill falls down and breaks her hip; rendering her immobile and needing to be placed in a nursing facility. The problems don't end there however and Jill later develops many other health problems and suffers from the aggressive onset of Alzheimers. The money from Jill's estate goes to pay for her medical bills, but the bills only continue to mount.

Although Jack loves his grandmother and she is very much alive, she is senile and no longer the sweet old lady that he remembers growing up with. She is also immobile and sedated the majority of the time during the rare occurances once every 5 months or so that he manages to visit from great distance.

Here's another scenario: Jane is on her way to work one day when she becomes the victim of a devestating car accident, suffering massive brain damage. Although Jane survives, she is no longer the same woman that her husband, John, married. Jane holds no hope of recovery and must remain bedridden under John's care and expense.

prettyredhead · Oct 6, 2004, 02:18 pm

I belive, that if someone wants to die then they should be able to. At their wish, and have means to make it not as painful. I am pretty much suicidal but am too afraid of pain or not suceeding. Life is hell for some, and easy for others.
It isnt easy to watch others succeed doing what you are doing, only you are failing. It isnt easy, nor fun to have .34 cents left after you get paid the same day. Makes life seem hopeless, especially when you have children depending on you. Since ppl screamed about welfare reform, and won, it makes women with children much more vulnerable to suicide. What are you gonna do when they are hungry and you dont have any food. Whore? I suppose that is an option. I suppose many are selling themselves, with a side of drugs to sell to make ends meet. I have a "normal" job. But would not be against prostitution if it were legal. I am cute, could make alot, ? is how would I mentally cope? Doesnt matter how I "cope" because it would pay the bills. Kids dont know how to be silent when they want more. They are entitled to much, much, more than I can give them. Mentally, I have nothing left to give except to remain the workhorse and work work work. I didnt have kids alone, btw. PPl have their anger at single mothers severly misplaced. Blame the asshole who leaves just as much.
Suicide is a permanent solution. It is a way out, could see how someone would choose that. Make it a choice. When someone really wants to die, they should be able to. Sell pills that make ppl die, would be a good start. Since their families failed to help them, or are abandoned, it can be total trauma on ones phys. mind. It should be legal to die when you want to. Besides, how does one punish a suicide survior. ??? There is no punishement needed, society does that quite well by lableing one weak, coward, ect. Help someone instead of being a judgemental dick.

Lava · Oct 6, 2004, 06:08 pm

PRH why dont you talk with us about it in more detail? Maybe make this a new thread even. From the suicidal viewpoint, no hope for solutions is seen. From the non-suicidal viewpoint, there are possibilities that can return hope.

Lava!

Lava · Oct 6, 2004, 06:18 pm

[quote=Waychel,]

>Why would a person want to kill themselves? Depression? Chemical imbalance? Are these justifiable reasons for a person to take their own life?

With long standing severe depression, yes it is. Living life like that is a dreadful experience. It is precisely why some kill themselves.

Re chemical imbalance, the diagnosis is a fake. The vast majority of people diagnosed with it have no such thing. Its good for patient compliance and drug sales though.

> What about the circumstances they have endured? Could the depression in dealing with these circumstances not be overcome? I fail to see why suicide should be an option when a solution is likely available as an alternative to this.

After a long period, either it has been overcome or it hasnt. People dont get suicidal overnight.

> Once again, I fail to see how under any of these circumstances a person would be in their right state of mind in seeking suicide.

I fail to see how sanity makes any diference. If someone feels so horrendous they want to die, thats what counts.

>Here's a scenario: Jack's grandmother Jill owns an estate worth $500,000. One

>Here's another scenario: Jane is on her way to work one day when she becomes the

Firstly these scenarios are exceptions, they do not in any way comprise the majority.
Second, scenario 2 contains no cause for killing.
Third, suicide and euthanasia are unlikely to be left to whim or based on someone elses convenience, if legalised.

Lava!

Sep 28, 2004, 08:10 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Iluvatar Sedimentary Rock Location: In front of a computer Posts: 18	My question to you is this: Should suicide be legal? Why? It's currently illegal in most states. You can't really stop someone who is set on it, but should people be allowed to take thier own lives? What do you think? I'll post my opinions in a bit. [center]-=Iluvatar=- The truest sign of wisdom is the ability to seek it in your opponent.[/center]

Sep 28, 2004, 09:51 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Compugasm Son of X51 Location: San Diego Posts: 3,569	Sure, something better than disconnecting a feeding tube though. Starving to death doesn't sound all that humane. I'd like to thank Charlie Hodge, bringing me scarves and water.

Sep 28, 2004, 08:16 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Iluvatar Sedimentary Rock Location: In front of a computer Posts: 18	I've found a surprising number of otherwise intelligent people who believe that suicide should be illegal. I was hoping for some opposition here, but not geting it. [center]-=Iluvatar=- The truest sign of wisdom is the ability to seek it in your opponent.[/center]

Sep 29, 2004, 09:33 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
giuliano Tres COOL Location: melbourne australia Posts: 819	i think the legal authorities realise prohibiting it by law will not deter people who want to commit it. i would say the real reason it is illegal is to give law enforcement officers legal grounds to forcibly restrain people in the process of attempting suicide, eg. breaking and entering their home, stopping them from jumping off a bridge. technically, they couldn't do that if it was legal, which would be truly ridiculous. sheik's progressive islam online* *with editorials by bishop

Sep 29, 2004, 11:51 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	I have never understood the argument that suicide should be illegal, its every individuals right to decide how long they wish to live. Its right up there with basic human rights if you ask me. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Sep 28, 2004, 08:29 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Paavo Location: Finland Posts: 712	I think it's obviously not a thing for governments to decide over, as one who's going to take his/her own life - will do so, legal or not.

Sep 29, 2004, 12:23 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
harumscarum Igneous Magma Posts: 183	I would rather see a diagnosis of a person’s psychological state rather then just allowing them to kill themselves. A person may be going through a rough time and maybe just needs a glimpse of hope or care. Suicide is a cop out and does not force a person to deal with an issue. I would much rather see someone stay alive and suffer then just die. If they are alive they at least have a chance of improving their mental state. If they are dead you can not do so. under construction....

Sep 30, 2004, 04:32 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	Suicide is horrible, as it is a product of a weak man (on par with being stupid or being useless), but as far as the government is concerned, cmon, who cares?

Sep 30, 2004, 08:30 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	If you ask me if someone wants to kill themselves let them, diagnosis of psychological state is irrelevant. If their genes have programmed them to want to commit suicide them let them go right ahead. In most cases its a form of attention seeking and for the few who do then we are removing weak members from the gene pool anyway. If a person has run into a sitation they can't deal with then again, go commit suicide just do it somewhere I can't see and not in my house so you mess up the carpet if people want to be weak then thats their business. Its not like we are suffering a shortage of human beings on the planet. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Oct 1, 2004, 03:01 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	I think that to make suicide legal would be to make euthanasia legal, which brings into question a whole other level of humanitarian issues altogether. I also do not think that the taking of one's life in dire times is something that should be condoned on either a social or political level, considering it affects people other than the suicide..ee(?) both emotionally, economically and sometimes physically. To legalize this would also bring into question the need for social institutions that help people dealing with depression and thoughts of suicide. I just see no benefit at all and think that it would create more problems than it would fix. Then again, my personal views also make me bias considering that I abhor suicide and find it one of the most dispicable and selfish acts that anyone can commit... Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 1, 2004, 06:09 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	I am not a fan of it but I respect people who do want to go kill themselves. I don't see what gives others the right to force a person to go on living longer than they want to. I see it as two things, on one hand its an extremely weak person who buckles to the urge to kill themselves, on the other hand they are pretty brave as well, its a fairly scary thing doing something like holding a gun to your head and knowing in about thre seconds you aren't going to be there anymore and half your head is going to be splattered over the wall. Brave but weak. Its an odd combination. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Oct 1, 2004, 06:52 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	hi Giuliano: > i would say the real reason it is illegal is to give law enforcement officers legal grounds to forcibly restrain people in the process of attempting suicide, eg. breaking and entering their home, stopping them from jumping off a bridge. Thats clever. Of course the law could also be written so suicide is legal, but it is part of the police's job to stop suiciders, and they may use the same means as to stop a serious crime. It makes no sense to me to prosecute someone for attempting suicide, thats the bit I dislike about the law. harumscarum: > I would rather see a diagnosis of a person?s psychological state rather then just allowing them to kill themselves. IIUC a suicidal state is basically a severe depression, where no hope is left. The standard of diagnosis of depression today is barely credible, I would not for a moment want to see life and death decisions based on such a hopelessly low standard of science. > A person may be going through a rough time and maybe just needs a glimpse of hope or care. I think thats most often the case. Given that solution, I'm not clear how a 'diagnosis of a person?s psychological state' would help with that. > If they are alive they at least have a chance of improving their mental state. If they are dead you can not do so. I think suicide is done in order to improve one's mental state. There are worse things than death. Suburbanite: > Suicide is horrible, as it is a product of a weak man (on par with being stupid or being useless), I dont think so, more a case of humans can only take so much. When depression sets in, even the will to do anything is lost, thus the appearance of weakness. I think suicide is basically the end result of an unsucessful way of living, a life of problems caused and a lack of the tools to address and resolve them. > but as far as the government is concerned, cmon, who cares? You tell me. If your kid goes through a suicidal patch, do you care if they make it through? Do you care if the government agencies stop them or leave them to it? You must be american. Samildanach: > In most cases its a form of attention seeking I agree that only a minority that try it are really serious. Thus if we save people from dying by physical rescue, hospital etc, we save many lives that turn out positively later on. That is one of the problems with the 'just let them' approach. In most cases people feel suicidal but just arent willing to actually do it. From the ones I've seen, only a minority were seeking attention. > and for the few who do then we are removing weak members from the gene pool anyway. thats not a positive argument in favour of it though. Most of us are 'weak members' of the gene pool in that without intervention most of us would not be alive today. Most of us are only still alive because of medical and educational input in our lives. The argument for removing those that cant make it on their own does not hold water in any way. The whole point of life is that we do get a shot, we do get the chance to survive and do the best we can. The notion of somehow 'improving' the gene pool by mass death is not the point of life at all. > If a person has run into a sitation they can't deal with then again, go commit suicide just do it somewhere I can't see dont any of you guys have kids? Parents? Friends? > Its not like we are suffering a shortage of human beings on the planet. population number is a non issue. You dont make life and death decisions on the basis of whether there are 'enough' people alive already, whatever that may actually mean. Waychel: > I think that to make suicide legal would be to make euthanasia legal, surely we have the choice of whether to make one legal or both, no? > I abhor suicide and find it one of the most dispicable and selfish acts that anyone can commit... I've worked with a fair few suicidals, and I dont see it as a selfishness thing myself. From what I see, consideration of others is usually a big issue for them, and regularly is the only thing left that stops them doing it. Naturally there are all kinds, so there will always be some shellfish, just as in the rest of the population. I think its more a question of how much a person can take. People arent made of steel, and even steel has its limits. And how much one has to endure depends on how one deals with problems: suicidals are often not very good at that. Note that does not make it a genetic weakness, since many go on to learn how to live more succesfully. Regards, Lava!

Oct 2, 2004, 04:28 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 649	I THINK SUICIDE SHOULD BE A CAPITOL OFFENSE WITH NO CHANCE FOR APPEAL!!!!! This keeps it from being a one liner Protester against the culture war!!!!

Oct 5, 2004, 07:45 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	QUOTE Waychel: > I think that to make suicide legal would be to make euthanasia legal, >>surely we have the choice of whether to make one legal or both, no?[/quote] >In my opinion, this would be a very difficult thing to do, I see your point, but I still think we could if we chose. A required procedure could always be put in place to check the person really did want to go, it strikes me that one can indeed distinguish, if we wish. > Keep in mind that there are more people actively in the support of euthanasia (more for economic than emotional reasons) than there are in support of having suicide itself (regardless of circumstance) become legal. I've heard this from political quarters before, and have never bought it. I can be a cynical one at times, but I dont seriously believe that a majority of famililes would kill their family members for economic reasons. I'm afraid I can see no credibility in that one. > I believe that such wording would come down to a person having the right to choose death so long as they are in their right state of mind; regardless of whether or not they are in control of themselves physically. Why would they have to be in right state of mind? Suicide is most wanted among those who are not in right state of mind. Such is painful! > However, this would bring into question whether a person was in a healthy psychological state to be demanding their right to suicide in the first place (considering that it does, afterall, go against the most basic of human drives; the will to survive)... a Catch 22. I would be quite happy to leave the requirement for sanity out of it myself, but maybe a required time period to get clear on things would help. Quickie suicides worry me, but something thought out over a period of time I could respect. Whether the person is sane or not, they know what life feels like for them. But I dont like the idea of such a requirement in such a desperate situation, I'd sooner let people do what they want to do with their lives. It seems gross to try to take away even life and death decisions from people, and place them in the lap of some bunch of idiots instead. Bear in mind that perspectives and values vary enormously, and committees considering something for a brief amount of time routinely fail to comprehend whats at play. > I do not despise people for having suicidal thoughts, because it is natural when we are dealing with the most desperate of times to have the most desperate of thoughts occure to us in the hope of escaping our conditions. But the key point that you have made here is that, "many suicidals go on to learn how to live life more succesfully." This, to me, is key point as to why suicide should never be allowed to become legal. If we can have such an optomistic mindset regarding something so morbid as the legality of suicide and the illegality of euthanasia, then how can we not hold that same optomism for the majority of those with thoughts of suicide? I dont think thats logical. Some suicidals just need some emotional and practical support, and some are very clearly beyond all human help, and need to be allowed to do what they want right away, eg people dying in awful pain from cancer. I'm not sure that which is majority or minority makes any difference. To deliberately make those I care about suffer horrendously simply because the law is an ass is something truly offensive. If you did that to an animal you'd risk going to prison for it, but with humans, they must suffer to the max, when everyone knows there is no chance of relief - other than a peaceful relief they have already accepted, death. For those staring death in the face, a real problem is often those others who can not accept death as an option, when in reality it is, and in many cases is the only option on the table. > As long as the possibility exists that these people can be helped, I believe that it is more humanitarian for this to remain illegal so that people may be restrained, counseled and given that help. now it should be clear why thats illogical. Perhaps the best choice is to let you decide how to run your life, let me decide how to run mine, and extend that same basic respect to others as well. Its ok for people to do it differently, and without seeking other people's approval. Regards, NT

Oct 5, 2004, 05:17 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Sandy Igneous Magma Posts: 238	First of all let me explain that I have been a Hospice worker for many years. I have stayed by the bedsides of terminal patients watching them put up with pain that in itself can kill the soul quicker than it kills the body. Hospice is fairly new to America and the people involved (the patients) are allowed to die any way they want. They can be drugged, starved, it is up to them. I joined up with the Death with Dignity in California and worked with getting assisted suicide on the Ballot in Oregon where it passed, California where it nearly passed and Arizona where we are still working on it. If a patient has been certified by several doctors that they are terminal and have little quality time left they should be allowed to die by having their doctor prescribe the medication that will help them die quietly and with dignity. It is working very well in Oregon and people are actually moving to that state when they find themselves with horrible killers like Lou Gerhigs disease or bone cancers, Huntington's Chorea: I'm talking out of control pain! I don't think the government or even anyone else in the person's life should have the authority to stop the action of dying with the same kind of dignity these people lived. Attorney General John Ashcroft is trying to stop the doctors from prescribing the meds that will end the lives of their patients and old St. John is a damn fool. He and Bush are trying to run the government from the rules found in the bible. This is just plain wrong, undignified and unbearably cruel. There's a lot of paper work that needs to be done before a doctor will write the meds. A psychological evaluation needs to be made. The next of kin must approve and several doctors must agree the patient has little quality time left. We put our beloved pets down and our family members deserve the same consideration.

Oct 6, 2004, 02:18 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
prettyredhead Igneous Magma Posts: 336	I belive, that if someone wants to die then they should be able to. At their wish, and have means to make it not as painful. I am pretty much suicidal but am too afraid of pain or not suceeding. Life is hell for some, and easy for others. It isnt easy to watch others succeed doing what you are doing, only you are failing. It isnt easy, nor fun to have .34 cents left after you get paid the same day. Makes life seem hopeless, especially when you have children depending on you. Since ppl screamed about welfare reform, and won, it makes women with children much more vulnerable to suicide. What are you gonna do when they are hungry and you dont have any food. Whore? I suppose that is an option. I suppose many are selling themselves, with a side of drugs to sell to make ends meet. I have a "normal" job. But would not be against prostitution if it were legal. I am cute, could make alot, ? is how would I mentally cope? Doesnt matter how I "cope" because it would pay the bills. Kids dont know how to be silent when they want more. They are entitled to much, much, more than I can give them. Mentally, I have nothing left to give except to remain the workhorse and work work work. I didnt have kids alone, btw. PPl have their anger at single mothers severly misplaced. Blame the asshole who leaves just as much. Suicide is a permanent solution. It is a way out, could see how someone would choose that. Make it a choice. When someone really wants to die, they should be able to. Sell pills that make ppl die, would be a good start. Since their families failed to help them, or are abandoned, it can be total trauma on ones phys. mind. It should be legal to die when you want to. Besides, how does one punish a suicide survior. ??? There is no punishement needed, society does that quite well by lableing one weak, coward, ect. Help someone instead of being a judgemental dick.

Oct 6, 2004, 06:08 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	PRH why dont you talk with us about it in more detail? Maybe make this a new thread even. From the suicidal viewpoint, no hope for solutions is seen. From the non-suicidal viewpoint, there are possibilities that can return hope. Lava!

Oct 6, 2004, 06:18 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	[quote=Waychel,] >Why would a person want to kill themselves? Depression? Chemical imbalance? Are these justifiable reasons for a person to take their own life? With long standing severe depression, yes it is. Living life like that is a dreadful experience. It is precisely why some kill themselves. Re chemical imbalance, the diagnosis is a fake. The vast majority of people diagnosed with it have no such thing. Its good for patient compliance and drug sales though. > What about the circumstances they have endured? Could the depression in dealing with these circumstances not be overcome? I fail to see why suicide should be an option when a solution is likely available as an alternative to this. After a long period, either it has been overcome or it hasnt. People dont get suicidal overnight. > Once again, I fail to see how under any of these circumstances a person would be in their right state of mind in seeking suicide. I fail to see how sanity makes any diference. If someone feels so horrendous they want to die, thats what counts. >Here's a scenario: Jack's grandmother Jill owns an estate worth $500,000. One >Here's another scenario: Jane is on her way to work one day when she becomes the Firstly these scenarios are exceptions, they do not in any way comprise the majority. Second, scenario 2 contains no cause for killing. Third, suicide and euthanasia are unlikely to be left to whim or based on someone elses convenience, if legalised. Lava!