Suicide Legality

[Lava]

Originally posted by Red_Dragon18, [b][u]Suicide should be legalized because people have the freedom of choice.

We have freedom of choice in lots of other things too: does that means they should all be legalised also?

people should also have to show doctor certification for suicide

What ever is this doctor thing all about? People seem to put these folks on some enormous demigod like pedestal, and insist they cant be wrong. Its seriously unrealistic.


Lava

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by Lava, ok, do. I suspect this might come into things somewhere along the line... When we do a job, we do it for the pay. To imagine the employer owes it to look after you for life is... not reality I guess. Some folks expect the employer owes them for life, and whine about the rude facts of reality. Lava

Lava

I've been going over the debate here on this thread and decided that the discussion about if society, and other individuals, are partially responsible for the amount of suicides, and the failures of some citizens, is really a seperate topic. It just would make us stray a tad too much from the legality of suicide issue. Normally I would just start another thread but to make my case, show where I am "coming from," requires a special approach that doesn't work in this format.

I write a column for several sites that I'm going to use to do this then we can come back here to discuss, or stay there. Your choice. But for my readers to understand I will need to quote you a few times just to start it off. The goal will be to give my readers a sense of where to start from topic wise. I can either refer to you as "Lava" or just say it was a poster on another site, your choice. I will probably mention Volconvo and give a link. as long as that is fine with the mods.

The lastest the first column will be up no later than next Monday, I just did another column and have other "fish" to make into sushi.

For all who wish to explore this side of the topic, the column will be up no later than next Monday, 10/25/04...

Inspection, by Ken Carman

I will start a seperate thread here just to be sure posters can go either place to discuss. I will do at least one column, but more likely two or more... every other week. I will do another topic on alternate weeks, just to make sure my regular readers are kept in the loop, column-wise. I will post on the new thread every time a column on the topic is up.

[Lava]

Youre welcome to quote me if you like Ken, with or without name. Might give volconvo a little publicity if the mods are ok with it.

Your kamikaze piece reminded me of Oliver Cromwells famous quote: 'A few honest men are better than numbers.'


Lava!

[prettyredhead]

Wow, I guess this opened a can of worms......
People have turned compassion into a form of percieved weakness. It isnt fashionable to be compassionate to those who are hurting. Pain is something that lives and thrives and becomes worse, at times leading to suicide. Pain is nothing to laugh or scoff at. Not everyone is strong enough to find other solutions. It is appealing to have no more bills, pressure, or suffering.
It is just a way to control your destiny. The unseen future is scary.

[syracusa]

Originally posted by prettyredhead, It isnt fashionable to be compassionate to those who are hurting.

I have noticed that. I think that this generation is reacting against the one of the 60's when compassion, empathy and humanity were actually promoted and held up as true virtues.

Now the jerkier, greedier, more selfish, more animalistic and more insensitive you are, the better off you come across. All the Darwinian bullshit is back, viva the "far right" attitudes, let's let this world be a jungle, we shouldn't dwell on our humanism, we shouldn't help those in need (just don't tax me!!! ME!!! ), we should emphasize our animalism instead of our human conscience etc.

In a recent thread, some imbecile responded to my posting with the statement:

"This is nothing but a crying woman".

What a way to support your argument...
Because we all know that the opinion of "crying women" are worth crap compared to the opinion of "cave men".

Well, might sound a tad off topic, but whoever has enough sense to make the connection with suicide, will.

[Lava]

And isnt that what evil is about? At least one of its forms. I mean not giving a flying fig about the welfare or survival of others.

Of course you need some beliefs to justify that first...

Lava

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by prettyredhead, Wow, I guess this opened a can of worms...... People have turned compassion into a form of percieved weakness. It isnt fashionable to be compassionate to those who are hurting. Pain is something that lives and thrives and becomes worse, at times leading to suicide. Pain is nothing to laugh or scoff at. Not everyone is strong enough to find other solutions. It is appealing to have no more bills, pressure, or suffering. It is just a way to control your destiny. The unseen future is scary.

Compassion isn't weakness, but some self-serving morons perceive it as such. These are some of the vultures I have referred to in previous posts. They get great pleasure out of feeding off of, and stoking the fires of, some else's pains. Bullies are prime examples of this. When bullies grow up they often remain bullies, they just learn how to do it without going to jail. A cousin of mine is a perfect example. More on that in my up coming column(s).

"Tough love" sometimes has little to do with love. Both compassion and tough love can be weakness sometimes. Or they can be strength. People's problems and how we should respond to them are often very specific and individualistic. We may understand them to a certain extent but unless we live, breathe and walk in their shoes (an impossibility for the most part) we still don't understand. Of course, we should and must try.

As a side note, if we had no more bills, pressure or suffering, we'd find something else to bitch about. If we could see the future we'd probably pray to be blind, no matter how positive it may be. Yearning for something better is part of the human experience, and a good part... mostly. It helps us achieve. But we need to understand that our reality is our reality and do our best to go up from there. However, all that said, if others understood we are more interconnected than not, that would be one of the biggest steps towards a better life for all.

Some "cans of worms" should be opened. Not talking about things is one of the many paths towards suicide. And, unfortunately, for those of us who have been drama Kings or Queens at one point in our lives, talking about things can be a path too. It's a paradox. Perhaps if we were more open and understanding with each other there would be fewer drama Kings or Queens. But they will always be with us because there is a mental illness element to some suicides.

[prettyredhead]

Suicide should be allowed when one is terminally ill, has a deformity or handicap that makes life unbearable. Lord knows this world is not designed for the "weak" and "vulnerable".
If I were handicapped to where I could no longer bathe, eat or go to the bathroom, I would definately want to die rather than rack up a few hundred thousand dollars for my kids to pay. Kill me I would say. If not, I would do it myself.
A life without any quality is not a life worth living.

[Lava]

> A life without any quality is not a life worth living.

Very true. But... think... someone who gets paralysed and can no longer do the things they enjoyed will experience depression, but then they will find things they do like, and get quality of life back again.

Suicidalness is kinda like that I think.


Lava

[Ken Carman]

As promised during this discussion, I have just posted my column at Political Puzzle. As soon as my editor approves it will be up at Slant Left. You will need to look for the Inspection block that is titled "Does Society 'Owe' Us?"

I have also started a new thread here at Volconvo in this section.: Society and Rights.

Feel free to discuss this side issue we discovered while debating this issue on any of the three sites.

[Tess]

I've already commented on Ken's piece on Political Puzzle, but here's another thought to the suicide legality. If you have a living will or do not recessitate order and try to kill yourself it is nullified and the paramedics are legally bound to try and keep you alive. How about them bananas?

So many people are driven by circumstance to try suicide but really want to live (most jumpers and wristcutters for example)

On the other hand, at one time I was very serious about suicide. I tried to overdose on some OTC drugs, just made me sick. I drank a concoction of Drano and other household chemicals, just made me sick. I put a gun to my head and pulled the trigger. The gun jammed, or I didn't have it loaded right. I hung myself, but my father heard the sound of the chair I kicked over and came to investigate, and cut me down. I tried running a pipe from the exhaust in my car into the window, but a neighbor noticed and pulled me out. I tried to overdose on a prescription drug, made me sick. I overdosed on prescription drugs again, they pumped my stomach. I finally took 35 nembutal and 3 hits of acid. A friend realize what was going on and took me to the hospital. Got me there just as I passed out and my heart stopped. I finally realized that if it's not your time to die, there's nothing you can do about it. You might as well figure out how to deal with life.

Making suicide illegal just gives the authorities a way to intervine if possible.

Euthanasia is a whole 'nother subject.

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by Tess, I've already  commented on Ken's piece on Political Puzzle, but here's another thought to the suicide legality.  If you have a living will or do not recessitate order and try to kill yourself it is nullified and the paramedics are legally bound to try and keep you alive.  How about them bananas?  So many people are driven by circumstance to try suicide but really want to live (most jumpers and wristcutters for example) On the other hand, at one time I was very serious about suicide.  I tried to overdose on some OTC drugs, just made me sick.  I drank a concoction of Drano and other household chemicals, just made me sick.  I put a gun to my head and pulled the trigger.  The gun jammed, or I didn't have it loaded right.  I hung myself, but my father heard the sound of the chair I kicked over and came to investigate, and cut me down.  I tried running a pipe from the exhaust in my car into the window, but a neighbor noticed and pulled me out.  I tried to overdose on a prescription drug, made me sick.  I overdosed on prescription drugs again, they pumped my stomach.  I finally took 35 nembutal and 3 hits of acid.  A friend realize what was going on and took me to the hospital.  Got me there just as I passed out and my heart stopped.  I finally realized that if it's not your time to die, there's nothing you can do about it.  You might as well figure out how to deal with life.  Making suicide illegal just gives the authorities a way to intervine if possible.  Euthanasia is a whole 'nother subject.

You certainly tried harder than I did, although I do know what it's like to empty stomach lining into a toilet... several times.

I wonder. Just how wide spread is suicide is? While E-mailing my brother about a cousin's suicide statements I found out he has been down this dark road before too. How do you take honest statistics about a topic that society seems determined to slap "head case" labels on you if you admit you've tried once?

Seems to me making it illegal would have less affect on lowering suicide rates than talking with people before we decide there's a mental problem. I remain convinced it has less to do with mental problems most of the time, although certainly not all, than it has to do with this rather absurd notion that if someone even considers the option they are nuts. I do disagree about the authority intervening part. In my experience if authorities want to intervene, they will. They don't need an excuse. It's a very depressing fact that if a cop wants to charge you with something because he doesn't like your race, your politics, your attitude or just decides he doesn't like you, he will.. no matter how bogus the charge, but even with suicide laws in affect they don't seem to care. Ever tried talking to a cop about someone who might be considering suicide? Good luck! It's not as much their fault as it is where our priorities are law enforcement wise. So much more important to catch that guy whose left rear wheel might be in the wrong lane because he hasn't met his quota...

[Tess]

But there's the problem Ken, it's like talking to a cop about someone you know is dealing drugs. They can't DO anything until that person has broken the law and they can catch them doing it. Suicide being illegal gives them a right to intervene. Where the real breakdown in the system begins is with the stigma of actually going to someone in the mental health system. Mental health is totally ignored by most of our society until the sick person does something that crosses the line... For example, Andrea Yates.

Many more people have tried suicide than want to admit it. And many others participate in "passive suicide" by doing things that endanger thier health, without caring if it kills them or not. Like Evil Knievel.

And then there are people who have died (like my current hubby) and came back. He has a living will, and do not recessitate orders on his records.

I guess it comes down to being afraid of death, or afraid of life, or both....or neither.

I'm no longer actively suicidal, but if I found out I had cancer, I would refuse any aggressive treatment, like chemo.

[Ken Carman]

"Suicide being illegal gives them a right to intervene."

But will they? I haven't seen much evidence of that.

I came back, and it was after my first and only real attempt. Sometimes I think some of us talk ourselves up to that point and thinks that's all it is... talk. Then we find ourselves jumping over the edge, sometimes literally, and something inside says, "CRAP! You mean I was actually serious about it all this time?"

I'm not afraid of death. I am afraid of the process of getting there though.

I too have seen too much cancer to ever do chemo, unless I had a pretty good notion it would work.

[Lava]

In 1998 suicide was the 10th leading cause of death in the United States, with 1.3% of deaths described as suicide on death certs. (National vital statistics report, Vol 49 No 11 Oct 12, 2001.)

I would assume there wil be suicides not marked as such on the death cert, plus a much larger number of non-successful suicide attempts that dont appear in this data. Conclusion: suicide attempts are common.


Lava

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by prettyredhead, Suicide should be allowed when one is terminally ill, has a deformity or handicap that makes life unbearable. Lord knows this world is not designed for the "weak" and "vulnerable". If I were handicapped to where I could no longer bathe, eat or go to the bathroom, I would definately want to die rather than rack up a few hundred thousand dollars for my kids to pay. Kill me I would say. If not, I would do it myself. A life without any quality is not a life worth living.

But you are weak and vulnerable, you just haven't realized it yet. And stop racking up a few thousand dollars for Welfare to pay while you're being so considerate.

[m5lange1]

This reminds me of that woman who refused a C-section when it was recommended by her Dr. then was charged with murder when one of her babies died in normal childbirth.

How long before the MORAL police start mandating medical procedures. How long before surgery is no longer ELECTIVE.

"YOU MUST HAVE THAT TUMOR OPERATED ON BECAUSE IT MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE AND YOUR LIFE IS SACRED!!!!!"

This is one of the big reasons I left the republican party. They used to be the party of individual liberties. They are now becomming the party of
"Restrict your freedoms to MY beliefs."

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by Suburbanite,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Suburbanite,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-prettyredhead, Suicide should be allowed when one is terminally ill, has a deformity or handicap that makes life unbearable. Lord knows this world is not designed for the "weak" and "vulnerable". If I were handicapped to where I could no longer bathe, eat or go to the bathroom, I would definately want to die rather than rack up a few hundred thousand dollars for my kids to pay. Kill me I would say. If not, I would do it myself. A life without any quality is not a life worth living.

But you are weak and vulnerable, you just haven't realized it yet. And stop racking up a few thousand dollars for Welfare to pay while you're being so considerate.[/b][/quote]


Maybe I'm missing your point, or maybe I misunderstood Red, but I think she's talking about horribly long stints in the hospital with the inevitable final conclusion: leaving a financial mess for others to clean up, not welfare. Did I miss something in her comments that refers to welfare?

"...rack up a few hundred thousand dollars for my kids to pay."

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by Ken Carman,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ken Carman,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Suburbanite,@ <!--QuoteBegin-prettyredhead, Suicide should be allowed when one is terminally ill, has a deformity or handicap that makes life unbearable. Lord knows this world is not designed for the "weak" and "vulnerable". If I were handicapped to where I could no longer bathe, eat or go to the bathroom, I would definately want to die rather than rack up a few hundred thousand dollars for my kids to pay. Kill me I would say. If not, I would do it myself. A life without any quality is not a life worth living. But you are weak and vulnerable, you just haven't realized it yet. And stop racking up a few thousand dollars for Welfare to pay while you're being so considerate.

Maybe I'm missing your point, or maybe I misunderstood Pretty Red, but I think she's talking about horribly long stints in the hospital with the inevitable final conclusion: leaving a financial mess for others to clean up, not welfare. Did I miss something in her comments that refers to welfare?

"...rack up a few hundred thousand dollars for my kids to pay."[/b][/quote]

Hmmm, seems to indicate NOT welfare. So are we talking about a misunderstanding here, or just the kind of insensitivity Pretty Red is refering too? Some of us get more of it than others. Sometimes I think some people just have an invisible target drawn on their backs, or fate has put a "please kick me" sign there, visible only to all the smart ass bullies out there who get pleasure out of making self serving assumptions about others and acting superior. Then we wonder why suicide rates are high?