Suicide Legality

[Lava]

Somethng I learnt:

If I feel hopeless, it doesnt mean there is no hope, it means Im feeling no hope. What I feel and what is are not the same thing.

Lava

[prettyredhead]

Awww hell. Suicide is a personal descision and personal grieving. It is lame, but to a person who is feeling that bad, it seems like the easier of the two options. Suffer here, or end all feeling. Sometimes I wish I could not feel.
Mind you, I am not going to "off" myself. I am too chicken of failing and then being a vegtable. And only because I have kids. Maybe later. Things better change.

[Lava]

Easier not to bother cooking too, but then you dont have a nice meal. same with everything. Life takes work in every area if its to be good. Thats the 3rd option you missed out :)

I very much believe schools should teach happiness, but they dont. No one thing works with 100% of people but it'd make a hell of a difference. One of a long list of books I want to write...


Lava

[Ken Carman]

Legal? Yes. Our lives belong to us. The state should never own us. Should society help? No, suicide should be a hard decision to make. I think our efforts would be more affective if we focused on making sure that people feel there's more hope. Our efforts should focus on making it a noble thing to get help if it may be a mental problem, not looked upon as something and someone to shun: a shameful thing. I think most suicides are created by just how callous, careless and cruel both society and people can be; and how hopeless life can seemingly become.

I don't think everyone who commits suicide is "sick." In fact, life and the outlook for the future can really suck sometimes. It's surprising more of us don't bite the bullet, literally and figuratively. Then when the individual realizes that there "must be something wrong" with him that only furthers the process. Then when an individual succeeds we attempt to wash ourselves of all responsibility by insisting they were sick and "who could have known." If people were honest with themselves I'll bet they'd see what led up to the final event. We just blind ourselves to the obvious because it is convenient.

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by prettyredhead, I belive, that if someone wants to die then they should be able to. At their wish, and have means to make it not as painful. I am pretty much suicidal but am too afraid of pain or not suceeding. Life is hell for some, and easy for others. It isnt easy to watch others succeed doing what you are doing, only you are failing. It isnt easy, nor fun to have .34 cents left after you get paid the same day. Makes life seem hopeless, especially when you have children depending on you. Since ppl screamed about welfare reform, and won, it makes women with children much more vulnerable to suicide. What are you gonna do when they are hungry and you dont have any food. Whore? I suppose that is an option. I suppose many are selling themselves, with a side of drugs to sell to make ends meet. I have a "normal" job. But would not be against prostitution if it were legal. I am cute, could make alot, ? is how would I mentally cope? Doesnt matter how I "cope" because it would pay the bills. Kids dont know how to be silent when they want more. They are entitled to much, much, more than I can give them. Mentally, I have nothing left to give except to remain the workhorse and work work work. I didnt have kids alone, btw. PPl have their anger at single mothers severly misplaced. Blame the asshole who leaves just as much. Suicide is a permanent solution. It is a way out, could see how someone would choose that. Make it a choice. When someone really wants to die, they should be able to. Sell pills that make ppl die, would be a good start. Since their families failed to help them, or are abandoned, it can be total trauma on ones phys. mind. It should be legal to die when you want to. Besides, how does one punish a suicide survior. ??? There is no punishement needed, society does that quite well by lableing one weak, coward, ect. Help someone instead of being a judgemental dick.

I know exactly where you are coming from. As far as whoring, as a man, I don't. I've heard it really destroys those who do it, kind of rots the heart from the inside out. But as I said... as a man, don't know.

There are many of us who have been through this and have also known many who took the final plunge. Sometimes it seems that nothing would be better than this. But it is the brief moments amongst the crap that makes life more worthwhile. Build upon them. Use them as the sustenance of life; to build your self worth.

And as far as the people who would label you, demean you... live despite them. Live to shove it up that portal from which their arrogance and ego come from. Hey, take it from me... that alone can make it worthwhile. And someday you'll look around and laugh at them, at the absurdity of the darker moments... and then realize life has suddenly taken on more meaning and come to have more value. They will try to drag you back down. DON'T LET THEM.

[The Iconoclast]

I think that a person who is considering suicide has feelings that are far beyond the law. I mean, a person who wants to commit suicide will commit suicide regardless of what some piece of paper says. Because of this, I take a utilitarian view on the issue. I think that making suicide legal will just cause an extra moment of hesitation when that police officers sees that person falling down 40 feet to pavement. I really don't think it would be very beneficial to society...

[prettyredhead]

It would not be "beneficial" and should not be. It should be a choice, in the very least for those terminally ill.
You cant admit you are depressed, as if you do then you are labled as crazy, or sick. You are immediately chasitzed and treated as a leper. Youre "weak" or a "coward". When are people going to stop sticking their heads in the sand and realize that people are not all the same. Abuse, ect can really kill someones spirit.
I have found that this society is geared toward sociopathism and lack of emotions, and that is scarier than terrorist threats, or wmd.

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by prettyredhead, It would not be "beneficial" and should not be. It should be a choice, in the very least for those terminally ill. You cant admit you are depressed, as if you do then you are labled as crazy, or sick. You are immediately chasitzed and treated as a leper. Youre "weak" or a "coward". When are people going to stop sticking their heads in the sand and realize that people are not all the same. Abuse, ect can really kill someones spirit. I have found that this society is geared toward sociopathism and lack of emotions, and that is scarier than terrorist threats, or wmd.

Absolutely. Exterior threats can be handled when there is a strong emotional support structure and people respect each other. Respect has been draining off of society at the speed of ego.

Why do people view "depressed" as something to be corrected? If it controls you, then that may be the case. But if I were a Jew headed to the ovens I would think being depressed might be understandable. Having emotions is one thing. How we act upon them is another. Allah, God or the Great Golem protect me from a society that insists we can only have "correct" emotions.

People stick their heads in the sand because they think social pressure will change you into another version of them. But these are the same people who wouldn't be happy with that "you" either. If necessary, and possible, you may need to avoid them.

[Lava]

IMHO prostitution /is/ the worst job in the world. I've known a couple of people that used to do it, and it sounds horrendous. Youre dealing with mostly low lifes and failures, users and abusers, criminals and headcases. Some of them want to hurt you, traumatise you, and occasionally they manage to. You have to face every person that walks in that door with a smile, knowing what might go down. You know its just a matter of the dice roll till it does go down again. Could be today, could be in 2 years, no-one knows.

You get raped, raped, and raped again. You get beaten up, terrorised, and scared shitless. Some days. Everyone you meet is there to use you. Its not that bad every day, not at all, but you know some days it will be, and you face every client with those fears inside, fears you must not express, and never let them see.


Prostitution leaves a specific pattern of damage. First the inability to see anyone as anything other than out to use you, and that means not being able to have genuine friends that you really trust any more.

Second you soon realise that society gives not a flying f whether you live or die, enjoy life or suffer horrifically. when shit goes down, no-one will help, police included.

Third all the rapes mean you can trust noone ever, any time, any place. Nowhere and no-one feels safe.

Fifthly living like this is emotionally intolerable, hence the majorty of hookers get addicted to drugs... yet more problems.

And finally, if this wasnt enough, you know you'll probably get hiv and die: and I can assure you its a truly horrible death. I'm watching an ex hooker go through it right now, and its beyond words.


When people decide to go hooking, they make one basic mistake. Our culture tells us money determines happiness to a significant extent. Therefore the thinking is, make good money, be happier. No more bill worries, no more this, no more that. Although thats true as far as it goes, it fails to include one fact: hooking destroys the very things happiness is made of.

I havent done it myself, but I work with hookers and ex hookers.


Regards, Lava

[Ken Carman]

When people decide to go hooking, they make one basic mistake-Lava

Yes, but I think there is at least one more basic mistake. When we make such decisions I think our ego tells us we are strong enough to survive, that it won't destroy us from within. I think that's a form of being fatally naive that we all suffer from to some degree, but some damage from some such decisions is more extensive. I'm guessing that hooking is probably one of the most destructive to the soul, the heart as well as all the drugs, abuse and self-abuse.

[giuliano]

i went through a period in my life when i seriously considered suicide.

it pisses me off hearing people say "oh you just can't face up to your problems." those people have no idea what you are going through. they may not care, that's fine, at least shut the hell up and stop pretending to understand the situation, especially better than someone who's been in it.

otoh, it is damaging to think of depression from a victim perspective. you can dig your way out of it, even if it takes professional and medical help.

that was the hardest time of my life, no question. i made it a goal to get out of it, and i did. but i had help. not everyone does. i have no problem understanding why some people pull the trigger. i don't encourage it, they should realise they may be missing out on a healthy, enjoyable life, but i can see why they make that choice.

i considered it at one point. i was perfectly lucent, weighing up my options. i had people i cared for, i dreaded what effect it may have on them. but we are selfish animals, and there is only so much pain you can take, no matter what the consequences.

interesting comments lava, your work? is valuable.

[Lava]

Originally posted by Ken Carman, I'm guessing that hooking is probably one of the most destructive to the soul, the heart as well as all the drugs, abuse and self-abuse.

I met 2 people who did it on a very part time basis. Neither had been assaulted at all, and they were both perfectly happy with it all. Tota; contrast to the others. Makes me think that probably hooking itself isnt the major problem, but its what comes with it. A powerful argument for legalisation perhaps.

But... we can only make informed guesses I think, unless there are people here who do it or have done it and can educate us some more.

Lava

[Lava]

Originally posted by giuliano, interesting comments lava, your work? is valuable.

thank you.

Lava

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by giuliano, i went through a period in my life when i seriously considered suicide. it pisses me off hearing people say "oh you just can't face up to your problems." those people have no idea what you are going through. they may not care, that's fine, at least shut the hell up and stop pretending to understand the situation, especially better than someone who's been in it. otoh, it is damaging to think of depression from a victim perspective. you can dig your way out of it, even if it takes professional and medical help. that was the hardest time of my life, no question. i made it a goal to get out of it, and i did. but i had help. not everyone does. i have no problem understanding why some people pull the trigger. i don't encourage it, they should realise they may be missing out on a healthy, enjoyable life, but i can see why they make that choice. i considered it at one point. i was perfectly lucent, weighing up my options. i had people i cared for, i dreaded what effect it may have on them. but we are selfish animals, and there is only so much pain you can take, no matter what the consequences. interesting comments lava, your work? is valuable.

I went there once, and almost didn't make it out. Sometimes there's a part of oneself that you never quite realize is there and when you discover you were serious, that it wasn't just the typical teen drama and moodiness/depression, it's quite revealing. I'm not sure selfishness played that much a part in it. During that point in my life if I had gone away even my family wouldn't have missed me. I'm serious. It was that bad. I seemed to be in everyone's way. It was a quite a low point in my life. I looked at the total picture; what would be better for all invloved and decided, in the long run, it was better without me in it.

Sometimes I still think that was the the most logical approach to the issue, at the time. But many years later I cannot say the same as I could have then. Not that life is a carpet of candy roses, by any means. Was it worth it for those around me now that I stuck around? I'm afraid the juries out on that and probably always will be. It's unknowable, at least for me. My opinion on that varies day to day, but I won't walk back down that path again.

I DID face my problems. I think many suicides do; other people just don't like the decisions they make. Suicide is not always a selfish act, although it is quite often a blind one. We all suffer from blindness to a certain extent, for we can never see everything. I think the reason some people don't like the results is that suicide sometimes exposes how those closest to those who commit it have failed them. And, although I don't believe everything is societies fault, I think in some cases, perhaps many, society should take on some of the responsibility for it. Rather than looking at that and improving how we treat, respect and value people, it's far easier to just label someone who killed themselves or attempt to as sick and selfish. I'm sure that contributes to why so many who have tried, try again, and again, and...

BTW, there certainly are those who mental illness and chemical imbalances may cause them to walk down this dark path when they probably wouldn't have otherwise. I just think we use that fact as an excuse to label every suicide that way. It's a convenient excuse. Plus we have a culture that wants to solve everything with a pill or shot and put the blame on things like chemical imbalances. It's a very "deux machina" view of like, in my opinion. God save me from a world where everyone is happy all the time. Some of the best we create in art and literature comes out of anquish. To paraphrase both songwriter Christine Lavin and Bill Shatner (WHAT a combination, someone who does great parody songs and someone who has willingly become a parody of himself!), "Please don't make me TOO happy" and "I NEED my pain, it makes me who I am, it drives me on, makes me achieve."

[Lava]

Among suicidal folk I often see blaming others for one's problems. Although that may be valid as an unempowered child, once we're adults its upto us to work out how to resolve problems and do so - its not someone elses responsibility. But a whole lot of adults just dont think that way, we still want others to change for our happiness, or to solve our problems.

Not that Im saying its easy, far from it, and a lot of adults pretty much fail at it. But in the end, if I dont like things about my life, its down to me to look at them, figure out how to improve them, get help with that if neceessary, and put some solutions into action.

If we dont owe it to others to do that for them, then logically they dont owe it to us either.


Regards, Lava

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by Lava, Among suicidal folk I often see blaming others for one's problems. Although that may be valid as an unempowered child, once we're adults its upto us to work out how to resolve problems and do so - its not someone elses responsibility. But a whole lot of adults just dont think that way, we still want others to change for our happiness, or to solve our problems. Not that Im saying its easy, far from it, and a lot of adults pretty much fail at it. But in the end, if I dont like things about my life, its down to me to look at them, figure out how to improve them, get help with that if neceessary, and put some solutions into action. If we dont owe it to others to do that for them, then logically they dont owe it to us either. Regards, Lava

I guess we sort of disagree here too. While I believe those who attempt suicide absolutely need to resolve their own problems, I don't believe that those around them and society should get off so easy. If we view those who attempt and commit as totally isolated individuals and believe what we say and how we treat people should have no affect on them, then I would agree. Of course, you're right, it isn't easy. But I believe sometimes society and individuals go out of their way to make it hard, especially on some people. As much as we look upon the caste system in disdain, there really is one in this society to a certain, though maybe lesser, extent. I think we sometimes go out of our way to tell people to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and then either rob them or deny them such straps.

I don't look upon it as a matter of society or individuals owing the other. It's a matter of what's right, what's wrong and how selfishly we treat the other. Sometimes it has a lot to do with intentional blindness because it's just easier for people to cover their eyes, plug up their ears and shut down their hearts. I suppose such people are also committing a form of suicide, of sorts.

There are some people I know who have so intentionally put themselves where they are. There's not a lot we can do for them. For instance: a person with 5 DUIs who treats everyone like they know how they should lead their lives, who has just enough money to eat dirt yet insists on Vodka and caviar, is offended by even hints, who gets irritated at everything someone elses says or does, who avoids work and makes no attempt to dig themselves out of this hole while they dig it deeper, and deeper, and... How much can one do for such a person?

Yet I've known many, many people who... hell, I don't know, maybe they just smell bad, maybe it's an old family curse... but other people just seem to go out of their way to dis them, avoid them, cut their bootstraps off or at least give them an impossibly short leash... They too are in an impossible situation, but it's not all that much of their own making.

Then of course you folks like a friend of mine whose Gay partner of 30 years had been executed by a serial Gay killer... 38 stab wounds straight through the body. He had an incurable nerve condition that was extremely painful and robbing him of his mobility... For some people a hospice would work. perhaps, but not this guy. The way he left this life was exactly the right choice... for him. Most of us who knew him and the situation understood and respected his choice.

The last example? When people like that kill themselves... I understand. Perhaps they should have chosen a different path but, when it comes down to it, it was their lives. Not the State's, not even their friends...

The other example? Absolutely people and society should look deep within and decide how much they have added to this person's misery and how we might be able to see this in the future with others. We are all responsible for our actions, our inactions and how well we relate to others. Those who deny this are mimicing some of the most evil humans throughout history.

[Lava]

Quote by: Ken Carman, Quote by: Lava, Among suicidal folk I often see blaming others for one's problems. Although that may be valid as an unempowered child, once we're adults its upto us to work out how to resolve problems and do so - its not someone elses responsibility. But a whole lot of adults just dont think that way, we still want others to change for our happiness, or to solve our problems. Not that Im saying its easy, far from it, and a lot of adults pretty much fail at it. But in the end, if I dont like things about my life, its down to me to look at them, figure out how to improve them, get help with that if neceessary, and put some solutions into action. If we dont owe it to others to do that for them, then logically they dont owe it to us either. I guess we sort of disagree here too. While I believe those who attempt suicide absolutely need to resolve their own problems, I don't believe that those around them and society should get off so easy.

I didnt suggest anyone got off, just saying that only the suicidal person can sort their problems out ultimately. Poeple can help in various ways, with emotinoal support and practical ideas, but the only person that in the end can substantially change my life is me, and the only one that can substantially change yours is you. At some point we have to take actions to improve our lot.... or nothing changes.

Its pretty tough to do it when youre
a) depressed, ie have no hope that anythings gonna change,
b) are overrun with problems, thus dont really feel like looking at them a lot,
c) have no idea how to solve them.

But nonetheless, it is the only way forward. The only solution to depression is action. Once you understand how it works, this is clear, there is no other solution.


I believe we are basically crybabies at heart. When things go wrong we look for social comfort, and we look to others to solve them for us. That works well enough as a child, but in an adult world its not an effective problem solving strategy. The effective strategy is to look for solutions and put them into effect. Ie to say, whats the point of all this whining, its getting me nowhere, and its no fun, so time to shut up and try work out how to improve my lot.

Easy? no. The solution? yes. It is the basic formula that successful people live by.


> If we view those who attempt and commit as totally isolated individuals and believe what we say and how we treat people should have no affect on them, then I would agree.

I would not consider that a realistic view though, as I doubt you would.


> Of course, you're right, it isn't easy. But I believe sometimes society and individuals go out of their way to make it hard, especially on some people.

Sure, very much so. But that isnt the prime cause: lots of people face that and pull themselves back up. The difference is in the person themselves, not the world around them, it is in how they deal with it. It can be a nasty world at times: 'now what are you going to do to make life better' is the real question.


> As much as we look upon the caste system in disdain, there really is one in this society to a certain, though maybe lesser, extent. I think we sometimes go out of our way to tell people to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and then either rob them or deny them such straps.

how do we deny them the means to improve their lot?


> I don't look upon it as a matter of society or individuals owing the other. It's a matter of what's right, what's wrong and how selfishly we treat the other.

I agree that matters, but I think it matters less than the question of how we tackle our own problems. Its too easy to blame others, and once you do that, youre stuck, because you dont realise the practical solutions will come from you, not from others.


> There are some people I know who have so intentionally put themselves where they are. There's not a lot we can do for them. For instance: a person with 5 DUIs who treats everyone like they know how they should lead their lives, who has just enough money to eat dirt yet insists on Vodka and caviar, is offended by even hints, who gets irritated at everything someone elses says or does, who avoids work and makes no attempt to dig themselves out of this hole while they dig it deeper, and deeper, and... How much can one do for such a person?

zero IMHO, unless you can shock them out of that. Shattering their bullshit views makes them start to look at others views again. Some of the folk I work with have been like this: it doesnt work, but their belief in their own ideas being successful does gradually get broken down by their own suffering, in time. Once open to new ideas, progress can be made.


> Yet I've known many, many people who... hell, I don't know, maybe they just smell bad, maybe it's an old family curse... but other people just seem to go out of their way to dis them, avoid them, cut their bootstraps off or at least give them an impossibly short leash... They too are in an impossible situation, but it's not all that much of their own making.

I agree, if you mean kids. Once adult, its upto them to solve it or work around it.


> The other example? Absolutely people and society should look deep within and decide how much they have added to this person's misery and how we might be able to see this in the future with others. We are all responsible for our actions, our inactions and how well we relate to others. Those who deny this are mimicing some of the most evil humans throughout history.[/quote]

I semi agree, but I think there is more than one path. I see this all the time in debate: do I address the issues, or do I just be nice and avoid any getting real?

Volconvo is for debate, we come here with the expectation that we will go for it, so its ok.
A social dinner is the opposite, we're going to be nice, even when people talk bleep.

Some of us get the chance to change things for the better in the world, and you dont achieve that by not debating, by going along with everything. Smiling at people improves folk's lives, but its not the only way. For those of us that can change the world its ok to do so - and in fact very valuable. Thats more result focussed than socially focussed.


Regards, Lava

[Ken Carman]

how do we deny them the means to improve their lot?

This is probably the crux of the matter in our disagreement. I agreed with most of what you typed, although I think we may disagree as far as how much is the individual's fault and responsibility and how much other individuals and society contribute, with or without intent.

We deny them means to improve themselves by many means. (BTW I am only talking about the second example here, the person who smells bad, bad karma... who the hell knows.) The concept that all a person has to do is work hard and they will make it is a little naive, at best. Sometimes the system is stacked against them, like when baby boomers left college and poured into the work place where we were told... A/ "We don't promote from within, buit hire from without." B. "Doesn't matter what experience you have in college, what 'real' experience do you have." Basically the system that had been set up for our fathers, and to a lesser degree for our mothers (unfortunately), had been dismantled. We didn't know, though. No one told you. By the time most of us figured it out the next reply was, "No, we need someone younger..."

Without turning this into a dissertation (I could do that, I absolutely could.) all I can say is most of us stumble through life trying to figure out the right path. I eventually figured out I had to work for myself and I had the means to do so. Not everyone is so lucky. We are not responsible for that. But there was a system set up in this country where people helped each other up the ladder and supported each other. Now we seem to be populated by mostly vultures who use everyone and anyone they can, and then spit them out. If who we become was only dependent on how well we work and treat others, then I would agree with you. I believe we are more interdependant than you do, probably.

This commentary, I admit, is less specific than I want it to be. I'm trying to think of how to explain my position without dominating the thread. If I figure that out, I'll get back to you. I'm thinking of giving you individual examples, things and situtations I've seen and experienced. But I'd post them one at a time to limit the length.

[Lava]

ok, do.

I suspect this might come into things somewhere along the line...

When we do a job, we do it for the pay. To imagine the employer owes it to look after you for life is... not reality I guess. Some folks expect the employer owes them for life, and whine about the rude facts of reality.

Lava

[Red_Dragon18]

Suicide should be legalized because people have the freedom of choice. people should also have to show doctor certification for suicide or have a machine do the work for us... oh wait we already have that its called guided missiles and bombs!