Vegetarianism

[Deadeye]

Quote by: kharvel You are basing your logic on quite a few unproven assumptions which are: Unproven Assumption 1) No groups of humans have survived on a vegetarian diet for thousands of years. Unproven assumption 2) All Stone Age cavepeople were omnivores. Unproven assumption 3) The homo sapien species as a whole would not have existed if not for the consumption of animal flesh.

I am; however, comfortable with my assumptions. No one has ever found an ancient culture that did not eat meat. That's NO ONE. Now since that's the case I'm pretty comfortable with my statement that meat eating caused mankind to grow stronger and smarter. I also believe that the dietary conditions that caused mankind to thrive on a diet of meat still exists today. However, we all agree than man can survive on a vegetable diet...however most also eat milk and dary

My favorite living study of likely early man behavior is the study of the Little People of the Kalahari. This is a very ancient culture and before they were influenced to modern man it's thought they lived as they lived tens of thousands of years ago. They eat meat, and as much of it as they can get. Lots of it we would consider as rotten too. They also eat roots and some fruit. I believe that evidence shows that mankind ate such foods from our first beings. All early man sites that show tools show bone and meat cutting implements.

Furthermore there is no evidence that ancient man ate grain exclusively. We also know that it took a very high level of civilization to produce the specialization that allowed man to cultivate and store large enough quantities of grains with the potential of being their main dietary staple. That didn't happen until Ur, which was about 8,000 years ago. Before that it was hamburger and steaks boys. There is no evidence to the contrary.

Fact is; man became who we are today relying on a diet of meat. Most of us still eat meat today, and we thrive upon it. Some of us eat a diet of vegetables and dairy products. Very few people eat a diet that is exclusively vegetarian...vegan? It requires a very scientific, detailed undertanding of organic chemistry to be able to organize a vegan diet that is healthy. I think that from time to time, even a vegan sneaks an ice cream cone. They probably need one; I'll bet some crave ice cream cones. The body tends to crave things that it needs.

[kharvel]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Where are we drawing the line if we don't kill them and treat them, in terms of food, as humans?

Animal flesh is not required nor necessary for our sustenance. This has been proven by societies that practiced vegetarianism for thousands of years. Draw the line where sustenance is required and necessary and that is the clear line between animals (including humans) and plants, grains, nuts, legumes, etc.

[thrashee]

Quote by: kharvel Animal flesh is not required nor necessary for our sustenance.

But it sure is tasty!

[inri]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Oh, so we go from "he was a vegetarian" to "He was predisposed to a vegetarian diet"? This is a scientific observation that our diets do not normally reflect those of purely carnivorous animals; not that they should reflect those of purely herbivorous animals. These merely say that he had respect for nature; not that he was opposed to eating meat. Famous foodies: Charles Darwin | Life and style | The Observer Why do you assume that all meat comes from factory farms? That's like saying we should all stop wearing clothes because of sweatshops.

Yes, you're correct. while these quotes do 'imply' vegetarianism, they do not in fact prove it..I chose to err on the side of proper argument and therefore chose these words.

.."Normal food of man is vegetable like anthropoids and apes....." QUOTE Darwin....this suggests far more than a mere predisposition towards an omnivorous diet in my opinion...the key word being 'normal'.

I think it's safe to say as evidenced by these quotes that Darwin had far more than a simple 'respect for nature'...he had a reverence for life....animals included...This one in particular "When you slaughter a creature you slaughter a God"....do you really think that someone capable of writing this would be a meat eater?...

Your souce "Cloe Diski" is a food critic/writer....not exactly what I'd consider to be the most reliable of sources...no where can I find this information she's stated in any of his biographies or any other similar sourced material....
She does state in her 'article' that during this period of supposed varied animal consumption, he was a student at Cambridge....If so, it's quite possible that he became a vegetarian afterwards, prehaps in later years..in fact one of the sources (a manuscript authored by himself and Wallace states that at the time that this manuscript was authored he was not yet a vegetarian but was moving in that direction as he saw the eithical soundness of it)
He certainly wouldn't be the first person to have started out a meat-eater who later evolved into a vegetarian....
The fact remains that he is included in numerous lists of historical vegetarians...and although I do admit I'm having trouble finding an independent reliable source that says he in fact was, I have found such said sources citing his quotes...which in my opinion make his position quite clear, however for the sake of proper argument, I'll certainly delete his name from the list of prominent vegetarians.

My point in listing these individuals in the first place was to quell the argument of Kamehemeha when he stated that vegetarianism is so flaky it's not even worthy of intellectual consideration, (or something to that effect)...anyway, like I said for the sake of argument and due to the fact that I cannot find any hard and fast proof of Darwin being a vegetarian, I'll remove him from my list. The rest stand.

Henry Ford, H.G. Wells, Mark Twain, Leo tolstoy, Henry David thoreau, Sir Isaac Newton, Martin Luther, Leonardo da vinci, Socrates, Nikola Tesla, Thomas Edison, Pythagorus, Plato and Albert Einstein... (just the tip of the iceburg in terms of prominent figures).I believe even without Darwin my point has been made.

[inri]

Quote by: Deadeye I am; however, comfortable with my assumptions. No one has ever found an ancient culture that did not eat meat. That's NO ONE. Now since that's the case I'm pretty comfortable with my statement that meat eating caused mankind to grow stronger and smarter. I also believe that the dietary conditions that caused mankind to thrive on a diet of meat still exists today. However, we all agree than man can survive on a vegetable diet...however most also eat milk and dary My favorite living study of likely early man behavior is the study of the Little People of the Kalahari. This is a very ancient culture and before they were influenced to modern man it's thought they lived as they lived tens of thousands of years ago. They eat meat, and as much of it as they can get. Lots of it we would consider as rotten too. They also eat roots and some fruit. I believe that evidence shows that mankind ate such foods from our first beings. All early man sites that show tools show bone and meat cutting implements. Furthermore there is no evidence that ancient man ate grain exclusively. We also know that it took a very high level of civilization to produce the specialization that allowed man to cultivate and store large enough quantities of grains with the potential of being their main dietary staple. That didn't happen until Ur, which was about 8,000 years ago. Before that it was hamburger and steaks boys. There is no evidence to the contrary. Fact is; man became who we are today relying on a diet of meat. Most of use still eat meat today, and we thrive upon it. Some of us eat a diet of vegetables and dairy products. Very few people eat a diet that is exclusively vegetarian...vegan? It requires a very scientific, detailed undertanding of organic chemistry to be able to organize a vegan diet that is healthy. I think that from time to time, even a vegan sneaks an ice cream cone. They probably need one; I'll bet some crave ice cream cones. The body tends to crave things that it needs.

Your assumptions are simply wrong. "No one has ever found an ancient culture that did not eat meat. NO ONE"...you are stating opinions and trying to pass them off as fact.

There is well documented historical evidence of vegetarian civilizations: Ancient greeks, Ancient chinese, those who were vegetarians as they practiced hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism...the brahmins...there is also evidence that early man in certain locations followed a vegetarian diet....Veg.ca - A Brief History of Vegetarianism

A Charles Darwin Quote: "The grading of forms, organic functions, customs and diets showed in an evident way that the normal food of man is vegetable like the anthropoids and apes and that our canine teeth are less developed than theirs and that we are not destined to compete with beasts or carnivorous animals."

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Inri .."Normal food of man is vegetable like anthropoids and apes....." QUOTE Darwin....this suggests far more than a mere predisposition towards an omnivorous diet in my opinion...the key word being 'normal'.

But again, that's a scientific observation; not an ethical judgement. It doesn't suggest that Darwin had any reason to find the eating of meat ethically objectionable.

Quote by: Inri I think it's safe to say as evidenced by these quotes that Darwin had far more than a simple 'respect for nature'...he had a reverence for life....animals included...This one in particular "When you slaughter a creature you slaughter a God"....do you really think that someone capable of writing this would be a meat eater?...

Absolutely. He could very well have been simply advocating that people have respect for their food and where it comes from. I think life is an amazing thing, but that doesn't mean I have a problem with killing animals.

Quote by: Inri Your souce "Cloe Diski" is a food critic/writer....not exactly what I'd consider to be the most reliable of sources...no where can I find this information she's stated in any of his biographies or any other similar sourced material....

If we're talking about reliable sources, what about your own? I think a national braodsheet newspaper is a somewhat more reliable source than vegetarian advocacy sites.

Quote by: Inri She does state in her 'article' that during this period of supposed varied animal consumption, he was a student at Cambridge....If so, it's quite possible that he became a vegetarian afterwards, prehaps in later years..in fact one of the sources (a manuscript authored by himself and Wallace states that at the time that this manuscript was authored he was not yet a vegetarian but was moving in that direction as he saw the eithical soundness of it) He certainly wouldn't be the first person to have started out a meat-eater who later evolved into a vegetarian....

Quote by: Inri Yes, you're correct. while these quotes do 'imply' vegetarianism, they do not in fact prove it..I chose to err on the side of proper argument and therefore chose these words.

So you made an absolute claim about somebody based on what you think his contextless statements seem to imply. That's not good practice in a debate.

Quote by: Inri The fact remains that he is included in numerous lists of historical vegetarians...and although I do admit I'm having trouble finding an independent reliable source that says he in fact was, I have found such said sources citing his quotes...which in my opinion make his position quite clear, however for the sake of proper argument, I'll certainly delete his name from the list of prominent vegetarians. My point in listing these individuals in the first place was to quell the argument of Kamehemeha when he stated that vegetarianism is so flaky it's not even worthy of intellectual consideration, (or something to that effect)...anyway, like I said for the sake of argument and due to the fact that I cannot find any hard and fast proof of Darwin being a vegetarian, I'll remove him from my list. The rest stand. Henry Ford, H.G. Wells, Mark Twain, Leo tolstoy, Henry David thoreau, Sir Isaac Newton, Martin Luther, Leonardo da vinci, Socrates, Nikola Tesla, Thomas Edison, Pythagorus, Plato and Albert Einstein... (just the tip of the iceburg in terms of prominent figures).I believe even without Darwin my point has been made.

Fine. It's not a crucial point in the debate anyway. Though it wouldn't surprise me if others in this list were as lacking in evidence as Darwin. A lot of these "I think X and Y agrees with me" claims are made up (Einstein believing in God etc.)

[thrashee]

I'm sorry, I'm having a good chuckle that people are actually discussing Darwin when it comes to eating meat.

Speaking of which, a double cheeseburger is sounding awfully good right now.

[inri]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy But again, that's a scientific observation; not an ethical judgement. It doesn't suggest that Darwin had any reason to find the eating of meat ethically objectionable. Absolutely. He could very well have been simply advocating that people have respect for their food and where it comes from. I think life is an amazing thing, but that doesn't mean I have a problem with killing animals. If we're talking about reliable sources, what about your own? I think a national braodsheet newspaper is a somewhat more reliable source than vegetarian advocacy sites. So you made an absolute claim about somebody based on what you think his contextless statements seem to imply. That's not good practice in a debate. Fine. It's not a crucial point in the debate anyway. Though it wouldn't surprise me if others in this list were as lacking in evidence as Darwin. A lot of these "I think X and Y agrees with me" claims are made up (Einstein believing in God etc.)

In the first quote: I as not providing this as proof of an 'ethical judgement'...vegetarianism is generally based upon ethics (compassion) as well as reason...

Re; the 2nd quote: We obviously interpret this differently...fair enough.

I don't see where I've made any "absolute claims"...my original statement was this: "Many of his quotes INDICATE someone highly predisposed to a vegetarian diet....the word 'indicate' is not absolute in my books...perhaps I should have worded this differently..For the record I make no absolute claims at this point based on the evidence I could find, that Darwin did in fact become a vegetarian...

re: the others on the list..I'm quite willing to provide sourced back up on these if necessary...there's an abundance for all. QUOTE ALBERT EINSTEIN.."Nothing will benefit health and increase the chances for survival of life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."

Yes, I think perhaps this has thrown us a tad off topic...

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Inri I don't see where I've made any "absolute claims"...

"Henry Ford, H.G. Wells, Mark Twain, Leo Tolstoy, Henry David Thoreau, Sir Isaac Newton, Martin Luther, Leonardo Da Vincci, Socrates, Nikola Tesla, Thomas Edison, Pythagorus, Charles Darwin and Plato (just to name a few) were also vegetarians"

Quote by: Inri In the first quote: I as not providing this as proof of an 'ethical judgement'...vegetarianism is generally based upon ethics (compassion) as well as reason...

The same argument still applies. The fact that he said it was normal doesn't mean that he had any reason to oppose deviating from it.

[inri]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy "Henry Ford, H.G. Wells, Mark Twain, Leo Tolstoy, Henry David Thoreau, Sir Isaac Newton, Martin Luther, Leonardo Da Vincci, Socrates, Nikola Tesla, Thomas Edison, Pythagorus, Charles Darwin and Plato (just to name a few) were also vegetarians" The same argument still applies. The fact that he said it was normal doesn't mean that he had any reason to oppose deviating from it.

This was sourced information as yours was. I've still yet to determine conclusively whether or not this is valid....you also made some absolute claims re: his varied meat eating that seems to have only one source...a food critic...

Yes, and as i've already stated I'm not saying here unequivocably that Darwin was in fact a vegetarian...merely citing quotes that may 'indicate' that he was.

Anyway, Bacon Guy I'm done quibbling on this one..if I happen to find a real reliable source that says Darwin was in fact a vegetarian I'll let ya know! :)

[The Bacon Guy]

Why a food critic would start inventing facts about famous people, as well as why a respected national broadsheet would publish this, is beyond me. However, here's a transcript of a letter in which the Glutton Club is referenced, as well as another letter with footnotes explaining it further.

Darwin Correspondence Project - Letter 148 — Darwin, C. R. to Whitley, C. T., 15 Nov [1831]

Darwin Correspondence Project - Letter 130 — Watkins, Frederick to Darwin, C. R., [18 Sept 1831]

[Gods_Mercenary]

At any rate, I wouldn't think Darwin would have as much understanding of diet as scientists do today, especially considering how new evolution theory was.

[thrashee]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary At any rate, I wouldn't think Darwin would have as much understanding of diet as scientists do today, especially considering how new evolution theory was.

Are we looking to Darwin to give us permission to eat those succulent, juicy, 100% all beef patties?

Shame, shame.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I dunno why we brought random quotes into it, if this is supposed to be a debate of facts and statistics.

[inri]

My position here is no so much that everyone should convert to a vegetarian diet. Evidently not all are destined to be vegetarians nor will they ever be. Ethical vegetarianism requires a certain amount of emotional development. First to experience the level of empathy necessary to care about the plight of an animal, and secondly to have the integrity and willpower to do something about it.

There are simply some who due to their limited emotional evolvement or development will never be capable of truly placing themselves in the position of another. Is this their fault? Perhaps not. We don't blame people for having a low general intelligence quotient, therefore why would we blame those who have a low emotional IQ?

Now I'm not saying that all those who choose to eat meat are necessarily low in the emotional IQ dept. As I've stated before I believe many truly do empathize with the plight of animals, yet decide to go ahead and eat meat anyway (prehaps this could be viewed as a lack of willpower or possibly integrity)....this is different from an individual who has no regard or compassion for an animal's suffering whatsoever (there appear to be a few of these here participating in this thread)...these individuals are lacking in emotional development or growth.

[thrashee]

Quote by: inri My position here is no so much that everyone should convert to a vegetarian diet. Evidently not all are destined to be vegetarians nor will they ever be. Ethical vegetarianism requires a certain amount of emotional development. First to experience the level of empathy necessary to care about the plight of an animal, and secondly to have the integrity and willpower to do something about it. There are simply some who due to their limited emotional evolvement or development will never be capable of truly placing themselves in the position of another. Is this their fault? Perhaps not. We don't blame people for having a low general intelligence quotient, therefore why would we blame those who have a low emotional IQ? Now I'm not saying that all those who choose to eat meat are necessarily low in the emotional IQ dept. As I've stated before I believe many truly do empathize with the plight of animals, yet decide to go ahead and eat meat anyway (prehaps this could be viewed as a lack of willpower or possibly integrity)....this is different from an individual who has no regard or compassion for an animal's suffering whatsoever (there appear to be a few of these here participating in this thread)...these individuals are lacking in emotional development or growth.

You almost made me squirt veal out of my nose, I'm laughing so hard!

Maybe it's just the rather high pretension factor that makes that "emotional IQ" seem so low. How is that view from your ivory tower, anyways?

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Inri There are simply some who due to their limited emotional evolvement or development will never be capable of truly placing themselves in the position of another.

Or perhaps they are perfectly capable of projecting human values and emotions onto non-human animals but just don't feel the need to follow this fallacious line of reasoning.

[inri]

Quote by: thrashee You almost made me squirt veal out of my nose, I'm laughing so hard! Maybe it's just the rather high pretension factor that makes that "emotional IQ" seem so low. How is that view from your ivory tower, anyways?

I'm merely stating facts. Studies have shown (Goleman 1995) that those who lack empathy have a serious shortfall in emotional intelligence. This lack of emotional empathy can be found in "criminal psychopaths, rapists, and child molesters. A critical component of empathy is the ability to understand and communicate "as if" from the other's point of view, taking the other's perspective. While those who lack compassion for animals may not be so far down on the spectrum that this lack of compasion extends to their interactions with humans, it is nevertheless a lack.

...and far sitting atop my ivory tower, I'll be the first to admit that although I get the empathy part fully, I too have difficulty rising to the level of necessary integrity/willpower to properly follow through with my beliefs. I fluctuate between a vegetarian/vegan, often finding it real difficult to abstain from dairy products. I clearly see the hypocrisy of this as many of the problems inherent in production of animals for their meat also plague the dairy industry.

You act shocked that someone would actually say that an individual devoid of compassion is somehow lacking....I find it hard to believe this would come as surprising information.

[inri]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Or perhaps they are perfectly capable of projecting human values and emotions onto non-human animals but just don't feel the need to follow this fallacious line of reasoning.

..so your argument would be that you are unsure as to whether or not animals are actually capable of experiencing suffering?

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Inri ..so your argument would be that you are unsure as to whether or not animals are actually capable of experiencing suffering?

No, my argument would be that I'm unsure of whether being farmed for meat necessarily causes the animals in question to experience suffering.