Vegetarianism

[zontovolo]

Matt, I don't think most meat eaters say that killing plants is wrong too to ease their consciences, but rather for argument's sake. I for one, don't think that killing animals is inherently bad--the only thing that makes it feel bad is that we as humans have the logic to put ourselves in their shoes, so to speak. Why doesn't the lion, for example, have feelings of remorse when it mauls an antelope to death (which is arguably a death worse than that in a meat processing facility)? My general idea is that human logic goes in the way of our instinct--if we were to follow our instincts same as all the other animals, we would kill with no remorse.

On the other hand, our unique brand of thought also makes us capable of doing things not directly necessary to our survival. No animal is violent and/or kills if there is no reason, but we humans do. By that, I mean that we should see killing animals in the same light as killing humans: Violence in humans is a much more complicated matter than violence in animals, and it directly relates to our levels of logic.

My bottom line is that eating meat is not inherently wrong--we see it in nature all the time. The matter of animals feeling pain is also irrelevant, because animals feel pain all the time in nature. Now, I must say that I love animals and would never personally kill one (because I have been brought up that way), but on an abstract level where I can talk objectively, I come to the (uncomfortable, to be sure) conclusion that killing animals is not inherently bad.

I would love to see what other people have to say about the opinions I have expressed, so please comment on them.

[LadyMacbeth]

Im a vegitairian because I Love animals and dont want to eat them! I have been a vegitairian for 9 years since I was 6 years old and very into Animal Rights.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: zontovolo I come to the (uncomfortable, to be sure) conclusion that killing animals is not inherently bad.

Inhernatly not bad !! But out wardly bad ??? Please clarify !

I would love to see what other people have to say about the opinions I have expressed, so please comment on them.

You have analysed the idea correctly. You have said animals do not kill without a purpose but human does. Lot has been already discussed in this thread before and then later in another thread Non-vegetarianism...why of it ??". For detail you may like to refer.

[Rog]

Hello, first post. Hi I am Rog, and I am friendly!

[Rog]

Ok, now that I was friendly on my first post, I can desagree with some of you.

[Matt]

Quote by: Rog Ok, now that I was friendly on my first post, I can desagree with some of you.

Ummmm....

[Barnicals]

Quote by: The Devil I'm a vegetarian. I'm not a PETA member. PETA makes us all look bad. On another note, I hate people who are against hunting, and then go eat a burger. I think it's worse to farm an animal for the purpose of food than to hunt for the purpose of food.

Yeeeaah, PETA. The problem with them (in my opinion anyway) is that they seem too ignorant to recognize man for what it is: An omnivorous pack animal. Plain and simple. Hunting is good for realising this, and making people work for what is normally fantastic meat.
Besides, hunting some animals (such as deer in NZ) is a good service to nature, as deer are huge pests here. So are rabbits, stoats, pigs, ferrits, and cats.

[Barnicals]

Quote by: LadyMacbeth Im a vegitairian because I Love animals and dont want to eat them! I have been a vegitairian for 9 years since I was 6 years old and very into Animal Rights.

Bet you'd eat meat if you were in a third world country where meat is a delicacy and people die from malnourishment, if you were in their situation. Meat is an essential part of the human diet, and without substitutes, you would quickly die.

Also, try this on for size. If animals all have the same soul value, if you will, as in an elephants soul is worth just as much as a mouses, why do you eat soy beans? Assuming that say, 6 field mice are killed per acre of soy beans harvested, wouldn't it be kinder to animals to simply slaughter one cow to feed many, but has the same value as a field mouse? That way you save five souls!

[Matt]

Quote by: Barnicals Yeeeaah, PETA. The problem with them (in my opinion anyway) is that they seem too ignorant to recognize man for what it is: An omnivorous pack animal. Plain and simple. Hunting is good for realising this, and making people work for what is normally fantastic meat. Besides, hunting some animals (such as deer in NZ) is a good service to nature, as deer are huge pests here. So are rabbits, stoats, pigs, ferrits, and cats.

I know PETA at times can be a little radical, but I agree with their main message, and their vision of what humans can be.

We were that (and some of us may still be), but we don't have to be that, as you can see.

Hunting is just a bandage solution to controlling overpopulation of most animal species.

Quote by: Barnicals Bet you'd eat meat if you were in a third world country where meat is a delicacy and people die from malnourishment, if you were in their situation. Meat is an essential part of the human diet, and without substitutes, you would quickly die. Also, try this on for size. If animals all have the same soul value, if you will, as in an elephants soul is worth just as much as a mouses, why do you eat soy beans? Assuming that say, 6 field mice are killed per acre of soy beans harvested, wouldn't it be kinder to animals to simply slaughter one cow to feed many, but has the same value as a field mouse? That way you save five souls!

It is not a essential part of the human diet in Australia, Cananda, USA, etc., and I truly don't expect people in Africa or South America to become vegetarian anytime soon, but we can.

Also, eating meat is so costly to our enviroment (I'll explain if you want), and our health. It is not worth the taste IMO. Countries which eat much less meat then we do all hurt the enviroment much less then we do, in the food department.

[Haltia]

I'm not a vegetarian but i have been, i had to have the diet of a veggie for about 6 months maybe longer (can't quite remember now) because i suffer from bad kidneys and they wanted to see what was causing it, so they wiped out all meat and dairy from my diet. I fell even more ill because of the lack of vitamins and minerals i was getting.

I respect people who wish to be veggie if they don't like the taste but i really hate it when someones like im a veggie for animal rights or whatever but i still eat fish and dairy! i dont get it!

I'm omnivorous and its going to stay that way.

[Okieslims]

Quote by: Gregory I know a few vegetarians, and I assume most of you aren't, but for the few who are... what is the specific reason for it? I know this isn't really a debate right now, but I suspect it could turn into one! Funny: VBForums

This thread made me crave some ribs for some reason..lol..Im off!

[Barnicals]

Quote by: Matt I know PETA at times can be a little radical, but I agree with their main message, and their vision of what humans can be. Hunting is just a bandage solution to controlling overpopulation of most animal species. Also, eating meat is so costly to our enviroment (I'll explain if you want), and our health. It is not worth the taste IMO. Countries which eat much less meat then we do all hurt the enviroment much less then we do, in the food department.

I'll agree with that first section.

Although what would you prefer happen to pest animals? Have then given a virus that kills them all off? Because that's the only other option that I know of... beside not introducing them in the first place.

How is meat bad for our health? Because it provides iron and protein? It is bad for us in excess, yes. But then again, so are almost all nutrients, as well as sunlight, and moisture. The problem that a lot of countries have is that they do eat meat to the point that it is unhealthy. I'll agree that eating domesticated meat is bad for the environment, but eating wild pest animals are not. Unless you think that those wild pest animals damaging the environment is a good thing.

[Matt]

Quote by: Barnicals I'll agree with that first section. Although what would you prefer happen to pest animals? Have then given a virus that kills them all off? Because that's the only other option that I know of... beside not introducing them in the first place. How is meat bad for our health? Because it provides iron and protein? It is bad for us in excess, yes. But then again, so are almost all nutrients, as well as sunlight, and moisture. The problem that a lot of countries have is that they do eat meat to the point that it is unhealthy. I'll agree that eating domesticated meat is bad for the environment, but eating wild pest animals are not. Unless you think that those wild pest animals damaging the environment is a good thing.

Natural predators introduced, large neuter operation undertaken, enclosures made for them, etc. I don't really know how big the problem is in NZ, it would be great if you could explain.

Meat is bad for our health:

GoVeg.com // Health Issues // Heart Disease
Red meat consumption doubles risk of colon cancer, says study; is it time to go vegetarian yet?
Eating red meat nearly doubles risk of breast cancer
BBC NEWS | Health | Red meat cancer risk clue found
Red meat and alcohol are major cancer causes - Telegraph
High Meat Consumption Linked to Heightened Cancer Risk

Most people eat domesticated meat. Did you know taking away all the meat cow farms would be like taking away 33 million cars off the roads? That would help the enviroment alot.

We can get iron and protein from other sources, which don't have to hurt an animal, nor hurt the enviroment as much.

[Barnicals]

Quote by: Matt Natural predators introduced, large neuter operation undertaken, enclosures made for them, etc. I don't really know how big the problem is in NZ, it would be great if you could explain. Meat is bad for our health: GoVeg.com // Health Issues // Heart Disease Red meat consumption doubles risk of colon cancer, says study; is it time to go vegetarian yet? Eating red meat nearly doubles risk of breast cancer BBC NEWS | Health | Red meat cancer risk clue found Red meat and alcohol are major cancer causes - Telegraph High Meat Consumption Linked to Heightened Cancer Risk Most people eat domesticated meat. Did you know taking away all the meat cow farms would be like taking away 33 million cars off the roads? That would help the enviroment alot. We can get iron and protein from other sources, which don't have to hurt an animal, nor hurt the enviroment as much.

This is from the first link:
"Studies show that people who experience frequent heart attacks often have high cholesterol levels; many also smoke or have high blood pressure. When these factors are controlled, heart attacks become rare. Foods that are high in saturated fat and cholesterol, such as meat and dairy products, are the major contributors to high cholesterol levels. In fact, animal products are the only sources of dietary cholesterol."
Cholesterol is fat, which was basically an energy backup way back thousands of years ago. So while excess cholesterol will cause these problems, they can be combated by things like exercise and moderation. I also see no scientific evidence here. You have somebody saying that it's hardly surprising about these problems in the american diet, but the american omnivorous diet is hardly fantastic.

"A new study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association shows a doubling of the risk of colon cancer for people who are heavy consumers of red meat. More specifically, it shows that the risk doubles compared to those who consume smaller quantities of red meat."
That only confirms what I was saying. However, this writer goes on to say: "This is conjecture, but I'm willing to bet that heavy consumers of red meat probably have quadruple the risk (or more) of colon cancer compared to [COLOR=#3366cc]vegetarians[/COLOR] or people who consume no [COLOR=#3366cc]red meat[/COLOR]." He's willing to bet? Hardly sounds noteworthy...

BBC news, of the fourth artical, say this (And I have to say, they are REALLY good journalists):" Eating lots of red meat is linked with DNA damage which raises the risk of bowel cancer, researchers suggest."
Once again, suggestions. "As with all dietary advice, moderation is key as we already know that a diet high in fat and red meat yet low in fibre, fruit and vegetables can increase the risk of developing this disease - currently the second biggest cause of cancer death in the UK." Moderation is the key. They say it themselves.

And finally, that last link: High Meat Comsumption linked to Heightened cancer risk. I's all in the title: HIGH levels of consumption, and it's LINKED. Then again, places with a lot of consumption also have a lot of CO2 emissions, because well hell, in first world countries (like america), everyone has a car! Hole in the ozone layer = skin cancer. I'm not an expert, yet I still linked Meat consumption to Cancer.

I'll explain New Zealands nature to you a little. As we were isolated from gondwana/the australasian continent a long time ago, many of our species have developed little protection from carnivirous predators. So even if any predators were released, they would more likely just hunt native species anyway... which sort of is what got us into the whole mess in the first place.
And that's why I'm not neccesarily a fan of eating domesticated meat... I'd much sooner eat the wild variety.

Damn, that was a long post. For me.

[Barnicals]

eMedicine - Toxicity, Vitamin : Article by Mark Rosenbloom

Just to prove that nearly all nutrients are dangerous in excess, if you're going to ask. :)

[Matt]

Quote by: Barnicals This is from the first link: "Studies show that people who experience frequent heart attacks often have high cholesterol levels; many also smoke or have high blood pressure. When these factors are controlled, heart attacks become rare. Foods that are high in saturated fat and cholesterol, such as meat and dairy products, are the major contributors to high cholesterol levels. In fact, animal products are the only sources of dietary cholesterol." Cholesterol is fat, which was basically an energy backup way back thousands of years ago. So while excess cholesterol will cause these problems, they can be combated by things like exercise and moderation. I also see no scientific evidence here. You have somebody saying that it's hardly surprising about these problems in the american diet, but the american omnivorous diet is hardly fantastic. "A new study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association shows a doubling of the risk of colon cancer for people who are heavy consumers of red meat. More specifically, it shows that the risk doubles compared to those who consume smaller quantities of red meat." That only confirms what I was saying. However, this writer goes on to say: "This is conjecture, but I'm willing to bet that heavy consumers of red meat probably have quadruple the risk (or more) of colon cancer compared to [COLOR=#3366cc]vegetarians[/COLOR] or people who consume no [COLOR=#3366cc]red meat[/COLOR]." He's willing to bet? Hardly sounds noteworthy... BBC news, of the fourth artical, say this (And I have to say, they are REALLY good journalists):" Eating lots of red meat is linked with DNA damage which raises the risk of bowel cancer, researchers suggest." Once again, suggestions. "As with all dietary advice, moderation is key as we already know that a diet high in fat and red meat yet low in fibre, fruit and vegetables can increase the risk of developing this disease - currently the second biggest cause of cancer death in the UK." Moderation is the key. They say it themselves. And finally, that last link: High Meat Comsumption linked to Heightened cancer risk. I's all in the title: HIGH levels of consumption, and it's LINKED. Then again, places with a lot of consumption also have a lot of CO2 emissions, because well hell, in first world countries (like america), everyone has a car! Hole in the ozone layer = skin cancer. I'm not an expert, yet I still linked Meat consumption to Cancer. I'll explain New Zealands nature to you a little. As we were isolated from gondwana/the australasian continent a long time ago, many of our species have developed little protection from carnivirous predators. So even if any predators were released, they would more likely just hunt native species anyway... which sort of is what got us into the whole mess in the first place. And that's why I'm not neccesarily a fan of eating domesticated meat... I'd much sooner eat the wild variety. Damn, that was a long post. For me.

I'm sorry, but I wont take your opinion over the expert's opinions that wrote those articles.

There has been quite a few studies comparing vegetarians to meat-eaters (people who eat moderate amounts of it) and the vegetarians at the end have a lower chance at getting some cancers, heart disease, etc. by about 25%. I wish I could link that to a source, but I read it in a book (no, not a "Become Vegetarian" book, just one that fairly looked at the difference between eating meat and not eating meat).

Meat is not that good for us, and we can live a healthy life with out it. So why eat it if we don't have to? Why help cause climate change and help keep animals being tortured?

Quote for the Mayo Clinic:

A well-planned vegetarian diet is a healthy way to meet your nutritional needs.

Therefore, why cause all the enviroment problems and inhumane treatment to animals when you don't have too?

[Barnicals]

Quote by: Matt I'm sorry, but I wont take your opinion over the expert's opinions that wrote those articles. There has been quite a few studies comparing vegetarians to meat-eaters (people who eat moderate amounts of it) and the vegetarians at the end have a lower chance at getting some cancers, heart disease, etc. by about 25%. I wish I could link that to a source, but I read it in a book (no, not a "Become Vegetarian" book, just one that fairly looked at the difference between eating meat and not eating meat). Meat is not that good for us, and we can live a healthy life with out it. So why eat it if we don't have to? Why help cause climate change and help keep animals being tortured? Quote for the Mayo Clinic: A well-planned vegetarian diet is a healthy way to meet your nutritional needs. Therefore, why cause all the enviroment problems and inhumane treatment to animals when you don't have too?

The experts that I have looked at there are all suggestions and deductions from what I can tell. I don't expect you to take my word over thiers, but thiers is hardly conclusive.

And of course, you can go on about reduced blood pressure and all that sort of thing, but I can easily turn it around and say that hell, vegetarians are at a higher risk of anemia, reduced muscle development, and lower blood pressure.
Nutritional pros and cons of Vegan, Vegetarian & Vegetarianism
Role of Vegetarian Diet in Health and Disease- Vegetarianism- Sports Medicine- Ayurveda - Iron Zinc and B12 in Vegetarians
I just found some reasonably good studies on google. That first ones last paragraph is quite interesting.

If your argument is about animal torture, you're in vegetarianism for the wrong reasons, and should think about joining WSPA or the SPCA instead. Man evolved as omnivores, and there is no reason why we should fight our evolution. Also, man kills and eats animals out of neccesity, and those that don't have to, have a right to at least eat it. You can't take people's rights away because your opinions differ from thiers. As for climate change, you'll remember that I said in a previous post, I would only eat wild caught meat if it was readily available. And remember, animals get ripped up by other animals in the wild every day, sometimes going for hours without dying. Humans just do it the best and most efficient way we know how.

[Matt]

Quote by: Barnicals The experts that I have looked at there are all suggestions and deductions from what I can tell. I don't expect you to take my word over thiers, but thiers is hardly conclusive. And of course, you can go on about reduced blood pressure and all that sort of thing, but I can easily turn it around and say that hell, vegetarians are at a higher risk of anemia, reduced muscle development, and lower blood pressure. Nutritional pros and cons of Vegan, Vegetarian & Vegetarianism Role of Vegetarian Diet in Health and Disease- Vegetarianism- Sports Medicine- Ayurveda - Iron Zinc and B12 in Vegetarians I just found some reasonably good studies on google. That first ones last paragraph is quite interesting. If your argument is about animal torture, you're in vegetarianism for the wrong reasons, and should think about joining WSPA or the SPCA instead. Man evolved as omnivores, and there is no reason why we should fight our evolution. Also, man kills and eats animals out of neccesity, and those that don't have to, have a right to at least eat it. You can't take people's rights away because your opinions differ from thiers. As for climate change, you'll remember that I said in a previous post, I would only eat wild caught meat if it was readily available. And remember, animals get ripped up by other animals in the wild every day, sometimes going for hours without dying. Humans just do it the best and most efficient way we know how.

Yep, I have no doubt that can happen to vegetarians who do not look after their health well. Alot of people become vegetarians and eat french fries and soda...which isn't good. I'm sure healthy eating vegetarians like myself, would not have those risks.

No I am not. I don't want animals to needlessly suffer because of me. It is un-needed cruel torture.

Why shouldn't we if we can help others?

We don't need it anymore in the developed nations, and that is a fact.

Correct, I can't, but I can debate about it and try to prove someone wrong. I hate it when people suddenly feel victimized when they think one of their rights is being taken away by someone across the world.

Most people don't though, and that is the problem.

Animals need to, we don't. That is the major difference.

The way we do it is mean, cruel, and un-needed.

The vegetarian popualtion is growing every day, it is catching on because people want to reduce cruelty to animals and live a healthier life.

[Deadeye]

Here's a study that I'd like to see done.

Take, say 2,000 normal young healthy adults. Then test them, both physical and mental tests.

Then feed 1,000 of them on a vegetarian diet, and a 1,000 on a balance meat diet.

After five years or so test them again. Then we'd know which diet was best. Then all of you weed eaters out there could chow down on a juicy hot dog with a clear conscence.

[Matt]

If it was healthy or not how it would clear our minds? The animals are still be tortured, a study doesn't change that.