Vegetarianism

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: kubedawg I think all animals used for feeding humans should be killed before the disassembly process....

And since they aren`t, why do you support the system of their dis-assembly by giving profit to the perpetrators who do to them what you believe to be wrong?

[kubedawg]

Voice your opinion to the right people, to get this enforced. But I don't think that eating meat is such a bad thing. Plants are living things. Vegetables are living things. Just because they don't have a personality like some animals, doesn't mean it's wrong to kill these plants. So why is is wrong to kill animals just to eat them afterwards?

I take my survival over any animals.

A friend of mine was asked a question by another friend, "If you saw a puppy dog in the middle of the road, about to be run over, would you jump in front of the car to save it, potentially risking your life to save the life of a cute little animal, or would you let it get run over?" And she asnwered she would die for the animal. Although this was a noble thing to say, I think it is just stupid. A lot of people who are vegetarians who I know personally have the wrong ideas. They think just because it's cute and lovable, it should be treated better than less personable or lovable reptiles like a flippin crocodile.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: kubedawg Voice your opinion to the right people, to get this enforced.

The "right people" or decision makers will only act once a groundswell of people call for change. Activists don`t have to just target industry leaders and politicians, they have to target their customers and constituents to inform them so that they join the group of voices calling for change.

But I don't think that eating meat is such a bad thing.

That is not what I asked you in the above post. You said that animals should be killed before being dissasemble. If you say that they should be so, then you obviously feel that it is bad that they are slaughtered the way they are and that that system of disassembling them is horrible. I asked you a question above based on your knowledge of the system and your eating habits. Please go up and give a direct answer to the question posed to you.

Plants are living things. Vegetables are living things. Just because they don't have a personality like some animals, doesn't mean it's wrong to kill these plants. So why is is wrong to kill animals just to eat them afterwards?

If one accepts that it is impossible to live a life without causing some death or suffering, then one should at least accept that he or she should cause the least amount of death and suffering possible. In that case, it takes more plant life to create value added in the form of beef than what would go directly to consumers. Therefore, less life would be lost without beef production. The net loss of life and suffering is less if one eats plant life. Vegetarianism has never been about perfection.

That said, would you please show us a peer accepted research paper published in a well respected journal that conclusively states plants have the ability to suffer?

I take my survival over any animals.

I would too if one were threatening my life. Do they threaten your life on a daily basis?

FYI, your survival is not dependent upon eating them in this modern world. If you think so and cling to out of date perceptions, do show us data that says your life is dependent upon eating meat in this modern world.

A friend of mine was ...

Testimonials are not verifiable. Since they are not verifiable, they prove nothing and therefore mean nothing in debate. I, too, could come back with "a friend of mine" story and in the end these kinds of stories do little to prove a point -- other than someone is not skilled at debating or making a point.

A lot of people who are vegetarians who I know personally have the wrong ideas. They think just because it's cute and lovable, it should be treated better than less personable or lovable reptiles like a flippin crocodile.

Again, testimonials mean little.

I don`t deny though that many people are more prone to give special consideration to 'cute' animals rather than the reptilian kind. More flesh eaters are guilty of this than vegetarians -- and even more so than vegetarians who choose their diet based on animal rights.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: RebelWithanAK That said, I know that to maintain my life I must end other life - flora or fauna. The point is to appreciate and give thanks for the damned tasty cow that I am wearing right now...

Not technically true. Many monks survive without killing.

You can drink the milk of cows. You can pluck fruits from trees. None of which kill. (unless you want to count eating an apple as killing)

[kubedawg]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin The "right people" or decision makers will only act once a groundswell of people call for change. Activists don`t have to just target industry leaders and politicians, they have to target their customers and constituents to inform them so that they join the group of voices calling for change.

Less debating, more doing.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin That is not what I asked you in the above post. You said that animals should be killed before being dissasemble. If you say that they should be so, then you obviously feel that it is bad that they are slaughtered the way they are and that that system of disassembling them is horrible. I asked you a question above based on your knowledge of the system and your eating habits. Please go up and give a direct answer to the question posed to you.

This post was not specific to your post alone.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin If one accepts that it is impossible to live a life without causing some death or suffering, then one should at least accept that he or she should cause the least amount of death and suffering possible. In that case, it takes more plant life to create value added in the form of beef than what would go directly to consumers. Therefore, less life would be lost without beef production. The net loss of life and suffering is less if one eats plant life. Vegetarianism has never been about perfection. That said, would you please show us a peer accepted research paper published in a well respected journal that conclusively states plants have the ability to suffer?

So plants are therefore less valueble just because of their physical mass after being turned into beef? I somehow find that hard to believe. If something lives, it may not have the same types of feelings we do, but it is still alive, and picking plants, is just the same as killing animals to feed humans. Oh and killing an animal so it's dead right then, means it hardly suffered.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin I would too if one were threatening my life. Do they threaten your life on a daily basis? FYI, your survival is not dependent upon eating them in this modern world. If you think so and cling to out of date perceptions, do show us data that says your life is dependent upon eating meat in this modern world.

Self defense is different from someone who would jump in front of a moving car to save an animal. Our lives aren't dependent on eating meat, nor is it dependent on eating plants.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Testimonials are not verifiable. Since they are not verifiable, they prove nothing and therefore mean nothing in debate. I, too, could come back with "a friend of mine" story and in the end these kinds of stories do little to prove a point -- other than someone is not skilled at debating or making a point.

Testimonials have the same merit as the keys that I physically type to voice my opinion. So basically, you automatically call me a liar. Where is the proof of that? Would you like me to video tape "my friend" saying these things? Then you'll accuse me of faking the video with some actress or something.... wtf? You will just have to take my word. Don't call me a liar if you cannot verify I am a liar. Now it does prove a point, because if it was "true," this story of mine, then it'd show how ignorant people are to self preservation. Self awareness, things that we natually do to survive in this "modern world." Testimonials then rule out all the stories you see on the news or on the internet, but replacing, " a friend of mine," with, "Breaking news!" In that case, we'd only be able to turst our gut feeling, and all my gut is telling me right now, is that I'm hungry, and I'm heading over to McDonalds to get a double QPC with no veggies.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Again, testimonials mean little. I don`t deny though that many people are more prone to give special consideration to 'cute' animals rather than the reptilian kind. More flesh eaters are guilty of this than vegetarians -- and even more so than vegetarians who choose their diet based on animal rights.

More flesh eaters than vegetarians? Well don't you think more flesh eaters exist than vegetarians? That would make the ratio about even in my book. No, I wouldn't know the exact answer, but then again, neither do you. My problems aren't necessarily against vegetarians, it's against stupid, ignorant people. I'm not saying I'm smarter than everyone, I'm just trying to question why people do these things? Which brings me to my conclusion. Vegetarianism is only beneficial for health reasons. But it is not a necessity, nor is beef, chicken, fish, shellfish, turkey, duck, pork, or any other type of animal that exists that is edible.

I love animals. 9 8.82%
I want to stay healthy. 7 6.86%
For religious reasons. 0 0%
It runs in the family. 2 1.96%
I am no vegetarian!!! 84 82.35%

It is apparent by this poll that most people are not vegetarian. But, we can see that nobody that has voted does it mainly for religious purposes. So that's good. But, 2 voted it runs in the family, and unless forced to do so, by parents, or whomever else, doing it just because someone else does it does not make you right. I agree that animals are something to be cherished, as we, too, are animals, but so are plants, and all wild life. So that leaves one viable option for those who are vegetarians, and that is to stay healthy. Sure I eat the occasional tomato, or eat onions on my burgers, but still, it really comes down to eating food(including meat and veggies) moderation, and excersize that makes a person healthy, not eating only a certain type of food.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: kubedawg Testimonials have the same merit as the keys that I physically type to voice my opinion.

That is why you should back up your opinions with facts, proofs, studies or references to material that your debate partner can easily access -- here on forum boards that usually means material that can be got/provided through web sites.

So basically, you automatically call me a liar.

I have not called you a liar. Don`t be a revisionist with people' words.

Where is the proof of that?

If I did suspect you were a liar, I would be under no burden to show that you are, because that is the same as saying you are "not" telling the truth. One does not set out to prove a negative. If you assert something (i.e. a positive) and you want that to be taken as true, you are the one who has the burden of proof to put it forth in such a way so that it is taken as truth.

Surely, having entered a site mainly created for fostering debate, you understand that, don`t you?

Would you like me to video tape "my friend" saying these things? Then you'll accuse me of faking the video with some actress or something.... wtf? You will just have to take my word. Don't call me a liar if you cannot verify I am a liar.

Again, see all above. But, kubedawg, I am going to humor you a little and play your game in this post to show you how ridiculous you are being with wanting testimonial to be taken as truth until it is proven otherwise:

My friend was invited by Santa Clause to help deliver all the toys around the world and was taken to his factory in the North pole that was 50 kilometers under the ice and sea bed. She told me so. That is her testimonial and she said that all the seemingly impossible things he could do was done so with magic.

Now, Kubedawg, are you going to take that testimonial as truth just because one put it forth and you can`t prove it to be not so simply because you don`t have access to her, the time it happened, or any other point related to the story? I wouldn`t. According to your reasoning and keeping your reasoning consistant, why would you?

[kubedawg]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin That is why you should back up your opinions with facts, proofs, studies or references to material that your debate partner can easily access -- here on forum boards that usually means material that can be got/provided through web sites. I have not called you a liar. Don`t be a revisionist with people' words.

I'm not being a revisionist. You are saying that unless I provide absolute proof, I am absolutely lying. Therefore, you are calling me a liar. Sure, it's hard to trust lots of people, especially over the internet, but I guess you will have to deal with that, because unfortunately, my "friend" hasn't recently made any documentation of her statements recently.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin If I did suspect you were a liar, I would be under no burden to show that you are, because that is the same as saying you are "not" telling the truth. One does not set out to prove a negative. If you assert something (i.e. a positive) and you want that to be taken as true, you are the one who has the burden of proof to put it forth in such a way so that it is taken as truth. Surely, having entered a site mainly created for fostering debate, you understand that, don`t you?

You have a different opinion than I on this subject, you have every right to disagree with what I say, that doesn't give ya the right to call me a liar if I'm not one. That's as fallacious as you saying I had a conversation with Santa Claus.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Again, see all above. But, kubedawg, I am going to humor you a little and play your game in this post to show you how ridiculous you are being with wanting testimonial to be taken as truth until it is proven otherwise: My friend was invited by Santa Clause to help deliver all the toys around the world and was taken to his factory in the North pole that was 50 kilometers under the ice and sea bed. She told me so. That is her testimonial and she said that all the seemingly impossible things he could do was done so with magic. Now, Kubedawg, are you going to take that testimonial as truth just because one put it forth and you can`t prove it to be not so simply because you don`t have access to her, the time it happened, or any other point related to the story? I wouldn`t. According to your reasoning and keeping your reasoning consistant, why would you?

Now, if that were the case, then all media as we know it would cease to exist because people would automatically believe it to be a lie? I'd like you to show me proof that a plant doesn't suffer, as opposed to an animal. I'd like you to support your theory that a plant weighs less in a piece of meat, than before a particular animal eats it. Show me some proof, and I'll be a little more apt to trust you. After all, you did call me a liar.

[SpideySpirit]

Where all Vegetarians!! Spiderman(Tobey Maguire), Batman(Christian Bale), Batgirl (Alicia Sylverstone), Fantastic 4 Human Torch (Chris Evans) & of course our primate celebrity King Kong.
Hello Friends!! I was in the neighbourhood. Personally, I'm a Raw Food Vegan, and eschew all forms of animal products for reason of moral integrity. After all what kind of Superhero would I be if I unnecessarily caused suffering to another sentient creature.

Quite often Hollywood celebrities are pioneers of societal change, they know that making a choice to be Vegetarian is an investment in helping to preserve there health & the good looks that conferred there celebrity stature.

[StrongHeartsWin]

That`s right, Spidey, what kind of superheros would they be if they caused suffering?

Interesting that all those are vegetarians. Thanks for pointing it out.

Welcome to the forum. Hope to see more of you on the animal threads and others as well.

[G. Adams]

Quote by: SpideySpirit Where all Vegetarians!! Spiderman(Tobey Maguire), Batman(Christian Bale), Batgirl (Alicia Sylverstone), Fantastic 4 Human Torch (Chris Evans) & of course our primate celebrity King Kong. Hello Friends!! I was in the neighbourhood. Personally, I'm a Raw Food Vegan, and eschew all forms of animal products for reason of moral integrity. After all what kind of Superhero would I be if I unnecessarily caused suffering to another sentient creature. Quite often Hollywood celebrities are pioneers of societal change, they know that making a choice to be Vegetarian is an investment in helping to preserve there health & the good looks that conferred there celebrity stature.

During the shooting of The Machinist, Christian Bale lived on an apple and a tin of tuna per day. And that kind of vegetarianism is just hypocritical.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: G. Adams During the shooting of The Machinist, Christian Bale lived on an apple and a tin of tuna per day. And that kind of vegetarianism is just hypocritical.

It doesn`t mean he is hypocritical. It means he is a flesh eater and therefore HE IS NOT A VEGETARIAN. You either are, or you aren`t.

If what you say is true about him, sounds to me like he is one of the confused flesh eaters and ignorant as to what really constitutes being a vegetarian. Some flesh eaters are just stupid and do not understand the term "vegetarian."

Why do you think he is a vegetarian because he eats tuna? Declarations by people mean nothing. Actions speak more loudly. Doesn`t matter what the hell he calls himself. It matters how he conducts himself.

Ha!

[SpideySpirit]

Quote by: G. Adams During the shooting of The Machinist, Christian Bale lived on an apple and a tin of tuna per day. And that kind of vegetarianism is just hypocritical.

I have an admission, I also have eaten meat in the past, I guess everybody has a history, but my most recent dietary evolutionary milestone was to go RAW. I have been a Vegetarian for 24 years, it has served me well.

[G. Adams]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin It doesn`t mean he is hypocritical. It means he is a flesh eater and therefore HE IS NOT A VEGETARIAN. You either are, or you aren`t. If what you say is true about him, sounds to me like he is one of the confused flesh eaters and ignorant as to what really constitutes being a vegetarian. Some flesh eaters are just stupid and do not understand the term "vegetarian." Why do you think he is a vegetarian because he eats tuna? Declarations by people mean nothing. Actions speak more loudly. Doesn`t matter what the hell he calls himself. It matters how he conducts himself. Ha!

That's the point I was making, he can't claim one thing and act in another way. Contradictions don't exist, if you think you have found one, check your premises.

[G. Adams]

Quote by: SpideySpirit I have an admission, I also have eaten meat in the past, I guess everybody has a history, but my most recent dietary evolutionary milestone was to go RAW. I have been a Vegetarian for 24 years, it has served me well.

So he's converted to vegetarianism in the last couple of years? It could be a phase, most likely is.

Hell I support you on the raw thing 100%, cooking destroys massive amounts of the vitamens you find in your foods. I've been trying to get a regular supply of unpasteurised goats milk for years now.

Out of curiosity, how much do you weigh? And how much is lean mass?

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: G. Adams That's the point I was making, he can't claim one thing and act in another way. Contradictions don't exist, if you think you have found one, check your premises.

The point I saw you attempting to make was that he was a hypocrite -- and not that he was just plain wrong or ignorant. The latter is the correct point. You were trying to paint him as a hypocritical vegetarian. That charge can`t stick because he is NOT a vegetarian. Saying someone eats meat but is a vegetarian is like saying someone is pregnant but not expecting.

Being wrong in a claim does not make one hypocritical. It just makes one wrong.

Now, if he were a confessed flesh eater not claiming to be a vegetarian but said it is wrong to eat flesh and everyone should be a vegetarian, then that would make him hypocritical. As it is now, he is just a flesh eater ignorant on what it means to be a vegetarian.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: SpideySpirit I have been a Vegetarian for 24 years, it has served me well.

Spidey, what would you say was the first or most major event/thing that contributed to you going vegetarian? Was it a series of things that caused your diet to change over time or was it a sudden realization about something?

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: The Devil I'm a vegetarian. I'm not a PETA member. PETA makes us all look bad. On another note, I hate people who are against hunting, and then go eat a burger. I think it's worse to farm an animal for the purpose of food than to hunt for the purpose of food.

I have a friend with a shirt that says:

PETA

People for the
Eating of
Tasty
Animals

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Captain Chaos I have a friend with a shirt that says: PETA People for the Eating of Tasty Animals

I have a friend who has a t-shirt that says:

Stalin, Idi Amin, Jefry Dalmer: related in diet to all you flesh eaters.

[tivodan1116]

The problem with most vegetarian's arguments, including the ones presented on this forum, is that they assume that omnivores such as myself care about these arguments.

1) "Eating meat is murder, animals suffer, the process/handling/farming is wrong."

And? So? I used to live in a farming community, and I have been to many butcher shops. I also have hunted and fished. None of that bothers me. Everything living eventually dies. There are many omnivorous and carnivorous species in this world that kill other animals. Why should we be different?

2) "Eating meat is unhealthy"

No, actually it isn't. Or, yes it is. You cannot say that eating one particular type of diet over another is better or worse, because the devil is in the details. I submit that the vegetarian who eats nothing but celery and tofu is just as if not more unhealthy than the person who eats nothing but burgers.
Judging by our collective waistlines, the most important issue for Americans in terms of nutritional health is clearly portion control, which for me is a lot simpler with a reasonable amount of meat at every meal, since that is what makes me "feel" full. Diet is such an incredibly personal and varied decision that you really can't make an argument for one broad sweeping thing over another.

3) Eating meat is an "energy sink"

And? So? Human existance is an energy sink, should we all kill ourselves? Human beings use an incredible amount of energy and resources, especially in developed worlds. When those resources become more scarce and the price goes up to where it is beyond eco