Vegetarianism

[Gods_Mercenary]

Again, they have bigger sharper teeth then we do, yet they are vegetarian. That indicates our teeth design for our size indicates we should be vegetarians.

Not at all, it simply indicates that tooth shape is sometimes an unreliable judge of diet, particularly with animals like apes where the teeth generally aren't tearing into prey, but are used as intimidation or weapons. Your example of gorillas disproves your assertions, since if a vegetarian can have big, impractical incisors, it is reasonable to believe that an animal that consumes a significant amount of meat can have smaller incisors, especially when they had to be downsized to accommodate the much more important adaptation of a large, human shaped brain and aren't used as a factor of intimidation or weaponry.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I have empathy though for mice, rats, birds, etc. which don't have any human behaviors. Maybe it's just because I tend to care more.

Or you unnecessarily anthropomorphize animals incapable of human function.

[kharvel]

Quote by: inri While calling these people 'superior' humans may be pushing things a bit, but there is no denying that for whatever reason, an ethical vegetarians ability to empathize with other living beings seems to be greater than those who could care less what a factory farmed animal must experience. From what I understand the ability to 'empathize' with the circumstances or pains of another is a trait uniquely human.

I would like to point out that vegetarianism is like celibacy. It is a suppression of animal instincts, not the result of an emotion like empathy. The argument that the suppression of instincts through sheer willpower and rational thinking is what really sets the humans apart from other animals. As others have pointed out, lower animals CAN express empathy. (eg. elephants). I have seen human beings who are strict vegetarians but have absolutely no empathy towards animals - they just don't care about what happens to the animals or they avoid animals whenever possible. Yes, these humans do exist, albeit in small numbers.

[ironeagle]

People who rely on vegitation only are not healthy. My best friend's nieces whom I also know were forced to go onto special vitamins because of malnourishment and deficiency from not eating meats. Here youngest niece started loosing her teeth from it. I don't mind if you choose to be a vegitarian but don't force your kids to be malnourished because you don't want to eat it. Cruelty to animals in unfortunate and should not be tolerated, but killing animals to feed the people is not cruelty.

[inri]

Quote by: kharvel I would like to point out that vegetarianism is like celibacy. It is a suppression of animal instincts, not the result of an emotion like empathy. The argument that the suppression of instincts through sheer willpower and rational thinking is what really sets the humans apart from other animals. As others have pointed out, lower animals CAN express empathy. (eg. elephants). I have seen human beings who are strict vegetarians but have absolutely no empathy towards animals - they just don't care about what happens to the animals or they avoid animals whenever possible. Yes, these humans do exist, albeit in small numbers.

Well I know that in my own personal case, Threre's no 'suppression' of anything. My choice to avoid animal products comes from the fact that I empathize with their plight and choose not to contribute through my actions. For me it's very different than if I was choosing to 'suppress' my sexual appetite, and abstain from sex. For others their motivations may be different, but most vegetarians/vegans I know have animal welfare at the core of their choice. (Perhaps I'm just lucky enough to know really empathic people! :)

I suppose if someone had a real huge appetite for meat, and due to their empathy for the animals involved had to suppress their 'desire' to eat meat, that would be the case...

However, I do agree that the ability to 'refrain' from an action one would find pleasant seems to be unique to humans....then again...I just taught my dog to ignore a treat when it's placed in front of him, until I give him the sign to go ahead....It would seem that he's choosing suppression (?)...

[inri]

Quote by: ironeagle People who rely on vegitation only are not healthy. My best friend's nieces whom I also know were forced to go onto special vitamins because of malnourishment and deficiency from not eating meats. Here youngest niece started loosing her teeth from it. I don't mind if you choose to be a vegitarian but don't force your kids to be malnourished because you don't want to eat it. Cruelty to animals in unfortunate and should not be tolerated, but killing animals to feed the people is not cruelty.

My entire family, including my two young children (ages 8 and 5) are all vegetarians. EXTREMELY HEALTHY, I might add. It's like any diet, it must be balanced. There are many children following a traditional diet who are also unhealthy.

My children are rarely ill. They both have a near perfect attendance record in school and the odd time that they do come down with a cold or something, they heal quickly.
Albeit, vegetarianism/veganism requires a bit more attention to food combinations, however, being myself that I've always gravitated towards well known 'healthy' foods, I've honestly never had a problem with it.

It works for us, and I can assure you no one feels deprived or misses out on any of their requied nutrients. Granted it's not for everyone. It does take a certain amount of discipline, and some people really do seem more pre-disposed to physically requiring meat in their diet. (Whether a mental or physical requirement, I remain somewhat unsure...)

Simply because you've known one family of vegetarians who have had unhealthy children, does not prove that this diet is unhealthy.

Unhealthy diets occur for both meat eaters and non.

[kharvel]

Quote by: inri Well I know that in my own personal case, Threre's no 'suppression' of anything. My choice to avoid animal products comes from the fact that I empathize with their plight and choose not to contribute through my actions. For me it's very different than if I was choosing to 'suppress' my sexual appetite, and abstain from sex. For others their motivations may be different, but most vegetarians/vegans I know have animal welfare at the core of their choice. (Perhaps I'm just lucky enough to know really empathic people! :)

Granted, many people become vegetarians because of empathy. However, let me point out that there are many people who have similar level of empathy but continue to eat animal flesh, nonetheless. For example, many Tibetan Buddhists think nothing of consuming animal flesh and although the Dalai Lama is a vegetarian and a paragon of empathic compassion, he does not proscribe the consumption of animal flesh by the followers of Tibetan Buddhism. So people can have empathy towards animals and still continue to eat animal flesh.

Another example is that many people in India who are vegetarian and move to Western countries often become non-vegetarian. Although they were raised in a vegetarian culture, they did not harbor much empathy towards animals - they were vegetarians simply because the family was vegetarian and it was not difficult to suppress the instinct to eat animal flesh because the culture and diet provided for nutritious vegetarian alternatives.

But when moving to another culture that institutionalizes the consumption of animal flesh (eg. Ronald McDonald encouraging children to consume the flesh of birds and cows), these people are then faced with two stark choices: actively and consciously suppress their instincts to consume animal flesh or follow the "When in Rome. . . " maxim. Many South Asian vegetarians often take the latter route although a large number stay vegetarian because of religious fervor and/or empathy towards animals.

Being a vegetarian in a culture of animal flesh consumption is a highly conscious decision to suppress the instinct to consume animal flesh. It is no different than the conscious decision of Westerners who resist the consumption of human flesh (or the "long pig") even though the consumption of such flesh is no different in biological terms than the consumption of pig flesh (the uncanny similarity between pig flesh and human flesh is what led to the coining of the term, "long pig"). This conscious decision is a hallmark of sentience and is it any wonder that anyone who reaches a "higher consciousness" is considered a super-human in many cultures?

[inri]

Quote by: kharvel Granted, many people become vegetarians because of empathy. However, let me point out that there are many people who have similar level of empathy but continue to eat animal flesh, nonetheless. For example, many Tibetan Buddhists think nothing of consuming animal flesh and although the Dalai Lama is a vegetarian and a paragon of empathic compassion, he does not proscribe the consumption of animal flesh by the followers of Tibetan Buddhism. So people can have empathy towards animals and still continue to eat animal flesh. Another example is that many people in India who are vegetarian and move to Western countries often become non-vegetarian. Although they were raised in a vegetarian culture, they did not harbor much empathy towards animals - they were vegetarians simply because the family was vegetarian and it was not difficult to suppress the instinct to eat animal flesh because the culture and diet provided for nutritious vegetarian alternatives. But when moving to another culture that institutionalizes the consumption of animal flesh (eg. Ronald McDonald encouraging children to consume the flesh of birds and cows), these people are then faced with two stark choices: actively and consciously suppress their instincts to consume animal flesh or follow the "When in Rome. . . " maxim. Many South Asian vegetarians often take the latter route although a large number stay vegetarian because of religious fervor and/or empathy towards animals. Being a vegetarian in a culture of animal flesh consumption is a highly conscious decision to suppress the instinct to consume animal flesh. It is no different than the conscious decision of Westerners who resist the consumption of human flesh (or the "long pig") even though the consumption of such flesh is no different in biological terms than the consumption of pig flesh (the uncanny similarity between pig flesh and human flesh is what led to the coining of the term, "long pig"). This conscious decision is a hallmark of sentience and is it any wonder that anyone who reaches a "higher consciousness" is considered a super-human in many cultures?

Yes, you make a good point that there are many who feel compassion for the animals involved, yet who continue to eat meat...I actually know many of them, and while they are certainly not 'bad' people, they have somehow cultivated the ability to simply 'look the other way'.

Wow...that's pretty wild about the 'long-pig' thing....I learned something new (lol, not quite sure something I wanted to know!..I'll work on my ability to look elsewhere I think!)

[Sappho]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I agree that causing pain to an animal that is not necessary for it to serve as my source of nutrition is at least bordering on sadism, and that those who cause animals to suffer to save a buck should re-think their values.

In the main, I agree with you and strive to eat ethically myself. That's no hard for me to do though, living as I do on the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria... it's semi rural, so access to real eggs from chooks that do roam and access to real meat that does graze and access to ethical vegi's etc... is not so difficult for me.

However, those who are on a smaller income and living in the burbs are not so lucky as I and cannot access ethical food sources.

Peter Singer's latest book "The way we eat" co-authored with Jim Mason, makes the point that it is extremely difficult to get food producers to actually explain the food production processes. He also points out how difficult it is for ordinary folk to persue ethical food consumption. Finally he points to the lack of access for most to ethical food sources.

So whilst it is that people should think twice about the food they eat, they should also realise too that the food market is so infiltrated with unethical approaches to our food.... including our vegitable intake... that they would be better organising bulk emails to food producers asking them to explain the food process, then publishing those responses as that would have more chance of affecting change than finding another source of unethical food.

[Sappho]

If people think that the production of non animal food is ethical... they are living in la-la land.

How fresh is that apple in that supermarket?
Did you know that apples can live fresh in cool stores, injected with perservatives for up to 2years!!!!!!!

Is that ethical?

Are bio-fuels ethical?

Are rice paddies and sugar cane crops in Australia, the second driest continent in the world ethical?

Deary me peoples, becoming vegitarian does not make you an ethical consumer of foods.

[Matt]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Not at all, it simply indicates that tooth shape is sometimes an unreliable judge of diet, particularly with animals like apes where the teeth generally aren't tearing into prey, but are used as intimidation or weapons. Your example of gorillas disproves your assertions, since if a vegetarian can have big, impractical incisors, it is reasonable to believe that an animal that consumes a significant amount of meat can have smaller incisors, especially when they had to be downsized to accommodate the much more important adaptation of a large, human shaped brain and aren't used as a factor of intimidation or weaponry.

So you have changed your mind? Earlier you acted like teeth where a reliable way to judge what an animal eats.

Of course a vegetarian gorilla will have larger teeth then a carnivour like a weasel, since it is larger. But look at chimpanzees...which are mostly vegetarian. They have larger incisors then we do and they are smaller then us. And they all use their hands to rip apart things, so you can't use that argument in this case. Our teeth our designed to deal with tough plant matter and the like, and maybe small amounts of meat. But nothing close to the amount we are consuming now.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Or you unnecessarily anthropomorphize animals incapable of human function.

I know they can feel pain, and I know they can think. Therefore I am kind to them.

Quote by: Sappho If people think that the production of non animal food is ethical... they are living in la-la land. How fresh is that apple in that supermarket? Did you know that apples can live fresh in cool stores, injected with perservatives for up to 2years!!!!!!! Is that ethical? Are bio-fuels ethical? Are rice paddies and sugar cane crops in Australia, the second driest continent in the world ethical? Deary me peoples, becoming vegitarian does not make you an ethical consumer of foods.

Nothing is really ehtical in today's world. But you can become more ethical, my scratching out your meat consumption. Meat takes much more energy to create then apples do per the same amount. It also in most cases causes more enviromental damage, starvation, health concerns, and animal cruelty compared to apples, and almost all other non-animal products.

[Matt]

Quote by: ironeagle People who rely on vegitation only are not healthy.

Did you read anything I said? The Mayo Clinic stated it is healthy, and studies have shown it is actually healthier then eating meat. Your assumption has no validity and is worthless.

I am healthy, and all the other vegetarians I talked to are. Care to rephrase your sentence?

My best friend's nieces whom I also know were forced to go onto special vitamins because of malnourishment and deficiency from not eating meats. Here youngest niece started loosing her teeth from it.

They probably weren't being vegetarian in the right way and eating the wrong foods. Eating apples, soda, and chips is not a vegetarian diet. I've been vegetarian since I was 12 and I have been perfectly fine since then.

I don't mind if you choose to be a vegitarian but don't force your kids to be malnourished because you don't want to eat it.

If I have kids, they will be vegetarians with out a doubt. By doing so they can live healthier and more moral lives. Not to mention helping the enviroment.

Cruelty to animals in unfortunate and should not be tolerated, but killing animals to feed the people is not cruelty.

Cruelty is cruelty no matter how you say it.

[Gods_Mercenary]

So you have changed your mind? Earlier you acted like teeth where a reliable way to judge what an animal eats. Of course a vegetarian gorilla will have larger teeth then a carnivour like a weasel, since it is larger. But look at chimpanzees...which are mostly vegetarian. They have larger incisors then we do and they are smaller then us. And they all use their hands to rip apart things, so you can't use that argument in this case. Our teeth our designed to deal with tough plant matter and the like, and maybe small amounts of meat. But nothing close to the amount we are consuming now.

I only indicated that the variety present in our teeth design indicates a flexibility of diet, for instance, if we had a mouthful of blunt pegs for stripping branches, I'd have to agree with you. Chimps have large incisors for other reasons than eating, (as you note, large incisors aren't very needed for an ape omnivore), and if you notice, gorilla's incisors are large proportionally, and at any rate pretty useless for eaters of vegetation.

[Matt]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I only indicated that the variety present in our teeth design indicates a flexibility of diet, for instance, if we had a mouthful of blunt pegs for stripping branches, I'd have to agree with you. Chimps have large incisors for other reasons than eating, (as you note, large incisors aren't very needed for an ape omnivore), and if you notice, gorilla's incisors are large proportionally, and at any rate pretty useless for eaters of vegetation.

Why do they have larger incisors then? They do because some plant material is very hard to bite into. Cows don't need those incisors because they eat grass. But we are like chimps in the sense we eat tough plant material, and having smaller incisors (yet not large ones like cougars) helps us eat it. I don't think chimps do much of the aggression displays gorillas do, so their teeth are mostly for eating.

I think our teeth, when compared with other animals who we know the diet of, indicates we are meant to eat vegetables and maybe small portions of meat once in a while. It also shows we can easily switch to a vegetarian diet (studies have shown this as well), and in doing so we can help the enviroment, animals, people, and our health.

[inri]

Quote by: Sappho If people think that the production of non animal food is ethical... they are living in la-la land. How fresh is that apple in that supermarket? Did you know that apples can live fresh in cool stores, injected with perservatives for up to 2years!!!!!!! Is that ethical? Are bio-fuels ethical? Are rice paddies and sugar cane crops in Australia, the second driest continent in the world ethical? Deary me peoples, becoming vegitarian does not make you an ethical consumer of foods.

The comparison of an unfresh apple is lost on me....are you saying this is cruelty to the apple, or to the unfortunate human who is eating an old apple, assuming it's fresh?...(am I missing something?) To compare the scenario of an unfresh apple to one in which an animal is experiencing excruciating pain and fear, is a bit of a stretch I think....no doubt there are varying levels of the unethical. In the case of animal production, it's the direct infliction of pain and suffering upon the 'food source' itself that most ethical vegetarians take offense with.

[ironeagle]

I think it;s unfortunate that children are being taught that being a meat eater is a crime.

[kharvel]

Quote by: ironeagle I think it;s unfortunate that children are being taught that being a meat eater is a crime.

So you believe that the consumption of the "long pig" should not be a crime?

[inri]

Quote by: ironeagle I think it;s unfortunate that children are being taught that being a meat eater is a crime.

I cetainly have not taught my children that those who eat meat are criminals, however I believe they do have a special empathic relationship to and respect for all living beings through the example that has been laid out for them...I also have made it clear that as they grow older and begin to purchase and cook for themselves, they're free to gravitate towards any type of diet they wish...interesting thing though, I find that it's generally children who immediate 'get' and easily embrace the whole idea of ethical vegetarianism as they seem to have an untainted natural empathic response to other living beings.

I personally find it rather unfortunate that many children seem to be instructed to go against their natural feelings of empathy for animals and to disregard them as living/feeling beings.

[Matt]

Quote by: ironeagle I think it;s unfortunate that children are being taught that being a meat eater is a crime.

They are not taught it is a crime, they are being taught to have empathy for the suffering of animals, the enviroment, etc. Plus I think almsot all parents want their children to live a long life, and being a healthy vegetarian will help do that.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Matt Why do they have larger incisors then? They do because some plant material is very hard to bite into. Cows don't need those incisors because they eat grass. But we are like chimps in the sense we eat tough plant material, and having smaller incisors (yet not large ones like cougars) helps us eat it. I don't think chimps do much of the aggression displays gorillas do, so their teeth are mostly for eating. I think our teeth, when compared with other animals who we know the diet of, indicates we are meant to eat vegetables and maybe small portions of meat once in a while. It also shows we can easily switch to a vegetarian diet (studies have shown this as well), and in doing so we can help the enviroment, animals, people, and our health.

They have large incisors, first off, because their skull size allows it, secondly because they do use them in displays of aggression ( bearing their teeth). I'm sure that chimps do find incisors useful at some point while eating. Cougars incisors are for ripping out prey's throat, something that we don't do with our mouths.

Our teeth indicate we are omnivores, we are meant to take advantage of any food source. We can switch from a hugely meat populated diet (think cavemen in europe) to vegetarian, and while healthiness changes depending on the person and specifics of the diet, we are ultimately designed to be able to eat almost anything we want, which is what has allowed our huge range in the planet.