Vegetarianism

[Matt]

Quote by: SMR Good point, but those things you stated that us humans "grew" out of were all moral issues, i.e. sexism and racism. Eating meat is not, it is something natural. In my opinion, I would rather eat something that humans have been eating for the some million-odd years we have been on the earth instead of some synthetic stuff that is not that old. Why? Because I do not know what happens in the long run? From what I have seen, there are no positive long-term statistics pertaining to being a vegetarian, i.e. where are the fourth-generation vegetarians, I see none!

It is also natural that alot of guys want to rip off the clothes of any attractive girl they see and do it, does that make it right or a valid reason to do so? No, it doesn't. Just because a 'natural' feeling or urge (most people have feelings and urges to both have meat and sex) is there, doesn't mean it is right or valid thing to do. In the past I don't think as many guys did refrain themselves from doing that, but as we became more civilized thousands of years ago, we realized it was wrong. We are just starting to realize eating meat isn't good, and I wouldn't be surprised in 100 years that 50% of the population in America or Canada is vegetarian.

There are probably no fourth generation vegetarians in North America (always exceptions though) because it wasn't that popular 200 years ago, since there wasn't substitutes like soy or tofu. But in Asia, where the monks there I believe live a vegetarian life, have one of the longest lifespans. Studies in North America have shown that vegetarians have a smaller chance of getting cancer or having heart attacks or strokes, and generally live a couple years longer.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I like eating meat, it is a good food source, and I generally don't feel the need to justify something my body was designed to do.

Good for you.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Studies in North America have shown that vegetarians have a smaller chance of getting cancer or having heart attacks or strokes, and generally live a couple years longer.

Which could be easily attributed to a more healthy lifestyle in general due to the health concerns that lead them to vegetarianism. In order for this o be convincing, you'd need to take two sets of people taken at random and have one eat meat and the other vegetarian.

[Matt]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Which could be easily attributed to a more healthy lifestyle in general due to the health concerns that lead them to vegetarianism. In order for this o be convincing, you'd need to take two sets of people taken at random and have one eat meat and the other vegetarian.

Yep, vegetarians tend to have a more healthy lifestyle. But studies have shown meat directly increases the risks of high chloresterol, cancer, heart attacks, etc. purely by the ingredients meat is made up of.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Which all can be found in non-meat derived products.

[Matt]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Which all can be found in non-meat derived products.

Correct, but once you cut out meat, studies have shown you become more healthy. Therefore meat must have some not so good things in it, kind of like cotton candy

[Gods_Mercenary]

Links to these studies? A topic such as health has too many variables to just do a simple study focused on one factor.

[Rog]

Yeah, soy is not so good neither. read up about.

[SMR]

Quote by: Matt Correct, but once you cut out meat, studies have shown you become more healthy. Therefore meat must have some not so good things in it, kind of like cotton candy

Or perhaps the reason vegetarians "are healthier" is that to be a vegetarian you must live in a wealthy civilization since a vegetarian diet is expensive, i.e. which guarantees all the other variables that contribute to living longer: medicine, clean water, etc.. If this is true, which it is, a vegetarian would fair off better than a starving Haitian, which means nothing. And since most of the world is starving, those statistics really are trivial.

Quote by: Rog Yeah, soy is not so good neither. read up about.

Yes, it is quite salty: two tablespoons of soy sauce is about 40% of a healthy daily intake of sodium.

[Rog]

Quote by: SMR Or perhaps the reason vegetarians "are healthier" is that to be a vegetarian you must live in a wealthy civilization since a vegetarian diet is expensive, i.e. which guarantees all the other variables that contribute to living longer: medicine, clean water, etc.. If this is true, which it is, a vegetarian would fair off better than a starving Haitian, which means nothing. And since most of the world is starving, those statistics really are trivial. Yes, it is quite salty: two tablespoons of soy sauce is about 40% of a healthy daily intake of sodium.

Not just that, but if you are a man, it can give you boobs and other complications.
Soy and Estrogen Dominance
I think the best way is to eat a heathy balanced meal which includes veggis and meat. If one eats too much of either they will have conplications.

[Matt]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Links to these studies? A topic such as health has too many variables to just do a simple study focused on one factor.

Here, these show a vegetarian diet tends to be healthier if practised properly:

USATODAY.com - Vegetarian diet on solid ground, experts say

Teen Vegetarians Healthier Than Meat-Eaters -Study

GoVeg.com // Health Issues // Cancer

A quote form the last link states:

Combine these two factors, according to the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and the scientific evidence is clear: "Vegetarians are about 40 percent less likely to get cancer than nonvegetarians, regardless of other risks such as smoking, body size, and socioeconomic status."

Want anymore evidence?

Quote by: Rog Yeah, soy is not so good neither. read up about.

Moderation is the key with most things. If you drink too much soy, it can be harmful. But if you drink or eat a healthy amount of it, it can be great for you.

Quote by: SMR Or perhaps the reason vegetarians "are healthier" is that to be a vegetarian you must live in a wealthy civilization since a vegetarian diet is expensive, i.e. which guarantees all the other variables that contribute to living longer: medicine, clean water, etc.. If this is true, which it is, a vegetarian would fair off better than a starving Haitian, which means nothing. And since most of the world is starving, those statistics really are trivial.

These studies are done in the USA/Canada, not in poor countries.

GoVeg.com // Health Issues // Cancer

"Combine these two factors, according to the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and the scientific evidence is clear: "Vegetarians are about 40 percent less likely to get cancer than nonvegetarians, regardless of other risks such as smoking, body size, and socioeconomic status."

GoVeg.com // Health Issues // Heart Disease

"A major study published in February 2005 reconfirmed the link between meat consumption and heart problems. The study, which was published in the American Journal of Epidemiology, concluded that among the 29,000 participants, those who ate the most meat were also at the greatest risk for heart disease. The researchers also reported that a high intake of protein from vegetable sources like tofu, nuts, and beans lowers our risk of heart disease by 30 percent. Dr. Linda E. Kelemen, the scientist who headed the study, told reporters, “Not all proteins are equal”—while vegetable protein can help keep our hearts healthy, eating animal protein can put us in an early grave."

Yes, it is quite salty: two tablespoons of soy sauce is about 40% of a healthy daily intake of sodium.

Soy sauce is a dressing, and meat eaters and vegetarians probably use it equally. Soy milk, soy yogurt, etc. do not have salt contents like that.

Quote by: Rog Not just that, but if you are a man, it can give you boobs and other complications. Soy and Estrogen Dominance I think the best way is to eat a heathy balanced meal which includes veggis and meat. If one eats too much of either they will have conplications.

Thats why moderation is the key when consuming soy products.

Do you have any proof to back up your last sentence?

Also, take a look at these links:

GoVeg.com // Health Issues // Heart Disease

GoVeg.com // Health Issues // Cancer

And you can't say they are bias, since they are basing their points on non-biased studies which are included in the articles

[Gods_Mercenary]

Here, these show a vegetarian diet tends to be healthier if practised properly: USATODAY.com - Vegetarian diet on solid ground, experts say Teen Vegetarians Healthier Than Meat-Eaters -Study GoVeg.com // Health Issues // Cancer A quote form the last link states:

The middle link is faulty for the reasons I stated before, the top one doesn't tell me much I don't know, since with modern technology, an extremely healthy vegetarian diet is possible, and the bottom link is interesting. Americans eat too much red meat, we know this, but there's no reason to cut meat out entirely, especially fish. The bottom link doesn't specify between people who eat a steak or burger every night with bacon and sausage in the morning and people who eat meat in moderation.

[Matt]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary The middle link is faulty for the reasons I stated before, the top one doesn't tell me much I don't know, since with modern technology, an extremely healthy vegetarian diet is possible, and the bottom link is interesting. Americans eat too much red meat, we know this, but there's no reason to cut meat out entirely, especially fish. The bottom link doesn't specify between people who eat a steak or burger every night with bacon and sausage in the morning and people who eat meat in moderation.

That doesn't matter, as the bottom link shows, eating red meat is generally not good if you want to be healthy. It would also be a mix of people, some would eat meat a couple times a week, others a couple times a day. Once it averaged out, eating meat showed itself to be less healthy. If meat was healthy, people eating that much would be as healthy or healthier then vegetarians are It contains ingredients that are just not good for us.

Fish isn't so good either, alot contain harmful toxins and fish farms aren't good for the enviroment:

FishingHurts.com >> Fish Farms

Scientists Warn On Fish Toxins, Express Alarm About Undetected Poisons In World's Waters - CBS News

[Rog]

Quote by: Matt Do you have any proof to back up your last sentence?

Proof? I posted links that say eating too much soy is bad for you, and you posted links that say eating too much meat is bad for me. what more proof do you need to back up my last sentence???

[Matt]

Quote by: Rog Proof? I posted links that say eating too much soy is bad for you, and you posted links that say eating too much meat is bad for me. what more proof do you need to back up my last sentence???

This is what you said:

Quote by: Rog I think the best way is to eat a heathy balanced meal which includes veggis and meat. If one eats too much of either they will have conplications.

A vegetarian diet doesn't have to include alot soy, and eating a moderate amount of soy is good for you. Eating meat, even in moderation, isn't good do to the ingredients which they have in them.

I'm asking you to prove that a non-extreme vegetarian diet is not as healthy as meat+veggies. Can you provide any proof of this, since you said that.

[Rog]

Quote by: Matt This is what you said: A vegetarian diet doesn't have to include alot soy, and eating a moderate amount of soy is good for you. Eating meat, even in moderation, isn't good do to the ingredients which they have in them. I'm asking you to prove that a non-extreme vegetarian diet is not as healthy as meat+veggies. Can you provide any proof of this, since you said that.

You are select reading me. when I wrote that I was talking about soy, which I provided the link that shows too much soy is BAD for you.

[kharvel]

Millions and millions of people in South Asia have been vegetarian for THOUSANDS of years.

How do you explain this discrepancy? If vegetarianism is bad for the human body, then surely these vegetarian people in South Asia would have been eliminated through natural selection over the millenia.

Can anyone please explain how is it that these millions upon millions of people could not just survive but also prosper being vegetarians for thousands of years?

Can anyone also explain how is it that there are millions of vegetarians in South Asia who are FAT. When I travel there, I see a lot of city people who are extremely overweight but have been vegetarians since they were born. I also see a lot of poor people with sinewy and muscular bodies from all the physical labor they have to do every day and yet they are vegetarians since birth as well. How do you reconcile this fact with the perception that vegetarians are thin and/or weak?

[Rog]

Quote by: kharvel Millions and millions of people in South Asia have been vegetarian for THOUSANDS of years. How do you explain this discrepancy? If vegetarianism is bad for the human body, then surely these vegetarian people in South Asia would have been eliminated through natural selection over the millenia. Can anyone please explain how is it that these millions upon millions of people could not just survive but also prosper being vegetarians for thousands of years? Can anyone also explain how is it that there are millions of vegetarians in South Asia who are FAT. When I travel there, I see a lot of city people who are extremely overweight but have been vegetarians since they were born. I also see a lot of poor people with sinewy and muscular bodies from all the physical labor they have to do every day and yet they are vegetarians since birth as well. How do you reconcile this fact with the perception that vegetarians are thin and/or weak?

Do you have links to those stats? beeinf fat or skinny is not always a direct efect of what they eat, it could also be a efect of how much they eat. Never heard of a vegetarian body builder. links please...

[Matt]

Quote by: Rog You are select reading me. when I wrote that I was talking about soy, which I provided the link that shows too much soy is BAD for you.

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

And to be vegetarian you don't need 'too much' soy. To be a meat eater though, you need to eat meat, and meat isn't good for you in any quantities. You claimed that a veggie+meat diet was healthier then a vegetarian diet, and I would like evidence of that. Since the soy link doesn't prove a thing, because few vegetarians go overboard with soy, and you are focussing on a small minority. Being vegetarian doesn't mean you have to eat too much soy.

Understand?

Quote by: kharvel Millions and millions of people in South Asia have been vegetarian for THOUSANDS of years. How do you explain this discrepancy? If vegetarianism is bad for the human body, then surely these vegetarian people in South Asia would have been eliminated through natural selection over the millenia. Can anyone please explain how is it that these millions upon millions of people could not just survive but also prosper being vegetarians for thousands of years? Can anyone also explain how is it that there are millions of vegetarians in South Asia who are FAT. When I travel there, I see a lot of city people who are extremely overweight but have been vegetarians since they were born. I also see a lot of poor people with sinewy and muscular bodies from all the physical labor they have to do every day and yet they are vegetarians since birth as well. How do you reconcile this fact with the perception that vegetarians are thin and/or weak?

Great point!

Quote by: Rog Do you have links to those stats? beeinf fat or skinny is not always a direct efect of what they eat, it could also be a efect of how much they eat. Never heard of a vegetarian body builder. links please...

Here is a vegetarian body builder:

The Vegetarian Bodybuilder

There are quite a few others too, since being vegetarian is quite healthy.

Vegetarian athletes:

GoVeg.com // Health Issues // Vegetarianism: A Winning Formula for Athletes

[kharvel]

Quote by: Rog Do you have links to those stats?

People of India and Indian Anthropology

Search for the word "vegetarian". 20% of the Indian population are strict vegetarian (around 220 million) while most of the remaining population are only occasional non-vegetarian.

beeinf fat or skinny is not always a direct efect of what they eat, it could also be a efect of how much they eat.

So you agree that vegetarians are just like any other people who can get fat, be sinewy/muscular, or simply have a normal body build.

Never heard of a vegetarian body builder.

I never said anything about vegetarian body builders. I simply said that through extreme physical labor, even vegetarians can have sinewy and muscular bodies. Through my travels in India, I have seen poor laborers who are strict vegetarians and are quite sinewy with almost 0% body fat and all muscles (think Marlon Wayans).

[Gods_Mercenary]

There are quite a few others too, since being vegetarian is quite healthy.

Body building doesn't require eating healthy as most people would define it, since your diet generally goes from eating massive amounts of high protein food to a weight loss diet, and of course with modern supplements it is possible to get the vast amount of protein required without meat. ( of course these people could just be genetically gifted, as most body builders will be)