Vegetarianism

[Matt]

Hey everyone,

I'm new the the forums, and since I'm keenly into animal rights and vegetarianism, I thought this would be a good place to start posting.

I'm 13, and I'm vegetarian (maybe become vegan in the future..parents wont allow it now). I love animals, and I hate seeing them abused or killed.

One of the big myths about being vegetarian is you'll not get enough protein, which is false. You can get protein from soy milk, tofu, nuts, eggs, beans, ect.

The fact is...humans do not need meat to live anymore. Alot of people say "humans were made to be omnivores, and they should eat meat". But we were also made to be racist, sexist, ect. and years ago it was cosidered ok. Now we know being racist or sexist is not OK (most of us) and it is wrong. It took us hundreds of years to get that though. I think soon (in the next 50 years or so) we'll start to see killing animals isn't that good either.

People have the right to do what they want. I just think if you don't have to kill something with brains to live, why do you do it then?

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: Matt But we were also made to be racist, sexist, ect. and years ago it was cosidered ok. Now we know being racist or sexist is not OK (most of us) and it is wrong. It took us hundreds of years to get that though. I think soon (in the next 50 years or so) we'll start to see killing animals isn't that good either.

Interesting... I disagree. It was convenient for certain societies for people to adopt racist or sexist attitudes, but there is no biological need to be prejudiced against a certain gender, etc.

I imagine that evolutionarily, it wasn't just protein but also fat (I mean, think of the lifestyles thousands of years ago...) and other dietary needs that were met by meat. We can adapt to finding other ways, yes, but I don't feel that it is immoral to "kill things with brains" to continue to consume meat. Given that our lifestyles are *significantly* different than they were back when we first starting walking erect, I do think people should drastically *reduce* their consuption of animal-based protein sources, but I don't think it is because of the "things with brains" argument.

What happens when it is discovered that plants feel pain when they're harvested? Man, we're screwed then. "Bambi" and the pretty widdle flowers will *all* be off limits and we'll have to subside on air and happy thoughts.

[Muckraker]

Quote by: Matt Hey everyone, I'm new the the forums, and since I'm keenly into animal rights and vegetarianism, I thought this would be a good place to start posting. I'm 13, and I'm vegetarian (maybe become vegan in the future..parents wont allow it now). I love animals, and I hate seeing them abused or killed. One of the big myths about being vegetarian is you'll not get enough protein, which is false. You can get protein from soy milk, tofu, nuts, eggs, beans, ect. The fact is...humans do not need meat to live anymore. Alot of people say "humans were made to be omnivores, and they should eat meat". But we were also made to be racist, sexist, ect. and years ago it was cosidered ok. Now we know being racist or sexist is not OK (most of us) and it is wrong. It took us hundreds of years to get that though. I think soon (in the next 50 years or so) we'll start to see killing animals isn't that good either. People have the right to do what they want. I just think if you don't have to kill something with brains to live, why do you do it then?

Welcome to the forums, Matt.

I wish you the best in your vegetarian endeavors. It sounds like you have already done the research that puts you beyond the point of no return. Your points are sound and if you look at my past posts you can see I frequently have fleshed out similar points.

Dealing with friends and family will get much easier with time and there is no better time than now for alternate choices. When I became vegetarian fifteen years ago (don't worry, my avatar is a character from a movie called Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance. ) there weren't many choices. Now I can get great veggie, non-salad, options every place I eat.

Again, welcome. Hopefully you have fun debating with us!

[Matt]

Quote by: JaneDoe321 Interesting... I disagree. It was convenient for certain societies for people to adopt racist or sexist attitudes, but there is no biological need to be prejudiced against a certain gender, etc. I imagine that evolutionarily, it wasn't just protein but also fat (I mean, think of the lifestyles thousands of years ago...) and other dietary needs that were met by meat. We can adapt to finding other ways, yes, but I don't feel that it is immoral to "kill things with brains" to continue to consume meat. Given that our lifestyles are *significantly* different than they were back when we first starting walking erect, I do think people should drastically *reduce* their consuption of animal-based protein sources, but I don't think it is because of the "things with brains" argument. What happens when it is discovered that plants feel pain when they're harvested? Man, we're screwed then. "Bambi" and the pretty widdle flowers will *all* be off limits and we'll have to subside on air and happy thoughts.

Mine and your points of view are going to be a little different, I don't believe in evolution, I'm Christian.

I believe we were given the benefit by God to be on the top of the food chain in most instances and have the most mental capacity of all living creatures on planet earth. With that, comes responsibilities. Now that we have found other food sources which have protein and fat, we don't need animals in our diet any longer. I think God wouldn't want us to kill animals if we don't need to.

The plant argument is something that IMO is not really worth discussing. If they can think or feel, it is very minimal, and way less then a chicken or cow.

[Matt]

Quote by: Muckraker Welcome to the forums, Matt. I wish you the best in your vegetarian endeavors. It sounds like you have already done the research that puts you beyond the point of no return. Your points are sound and if you look at my past posts you can see I frequently have fleshed out similar points. Dealing with friends and family will get much easier with time and there is no better time than now for alternate choices. When I became vegetarian fifteen years ago (don't worry, my avatar is a character from a movie called Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance. ) there weren't many choices. Now I can get great veggie, non-salad, options every place I eat. Again, welcome. Hopefully you have fun debating with us!

Thanks for the welcome!

I will have fun debating. Browsing the forums I can see people are mature and nice, which is great. I got tired of the personal attacks people would fling at me on other forums lol

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Matt People have the right to do what they want. I just think if you don't have to kill something with brains to live, why do you do it then?

Because it's delicious.

Quote by: Muck don't worry, my avatar is a character from a movie called Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance.

Isn't that Oh Daesu from Oldboy?

[Muckraker]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Isn't that Oh Daesu from Oldboy?

Yep yep! Glad to see someone else that watches entertaining Korean films (assuming you liked it of course). My mistake on the title. It was Oldboy, which was the best of the trilogy in my opinion.

You may want to check out Ichi the Killer if you haven't seen it. Also, any Stephen Chow film is awesome, Shaolin Soccer and Kung-Fu Hustle in particular.

[Laststandb]

Let's get back on topic,

The point of Vegitarianisim is to protect animials, or life. But still, your still killing life, or plants.

Then again, aminals are different from plants...

What the point of vegitarianisim them? (Probably healthyness)

[Muckraker]

Quote by: Laststandb Let's get back on topic, The point of Vegitarianisim is to protect animials, or life. But still, your still killing life, or plants. Then again, aminals are different from plants... What the point of vegitarianisim them? (Probably healthyness)

Would you vote republican if you prefered the democratic candidate? Would you donate money to Catholic churches if you prefered the Jewish religion? Would you buy a pack of hotdogs if you prefered to eat hamburgers?

The point of vegetarianism for me is that I would prefer to not vote for something I don't agree with. And my not voting for that product is no big loss to me.

Don't bother starting up with the "maybe plants have feelings" line of reasoning. They don't.

[Matt]

Quote by: Laststandb Let's get back on topic, The point of Vegitarianisim is to protect animials, or life. But still, your still killing life, or plants. Then again, aminals are different from plants... What the point of vegitarianisim them? (Probably healthyness)

Like Muckraker said, don't bother with the whole plants thing. They don't have feelings or thoughts, unlike animals, which do (animals meaning mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, ect.....not bacteria or anything like that).

My choice for becoming vegetarian is that I don't want to harm animals. The added health benefits are a bonus. See, it just makes moral sense to not kill (by eating meat you kill) something if you don't have too IMO.

[Laststandb]

I see that, but do animals really have thoughts? They do have a brain, but is it just conditioned response like a plant?
I feel the the barrier of intelegence relys on the quest for pleasure.

[Muckraker]

Quote by: Laststandb I see that, but do animals really have thoughts? They do have a brain, but is it just conditioned response like a plant? I feel the the barrier of intelegence relys on the quest for pleasure.

Hit your dog in the face with a shovel and see what happens.

Why would you think animals don't have thoughts when they have all the same basic physical features that you do?

They have skin with nerves, eyes, ears, noses, brains, central nervous systems, etc. Why is it such a stretch to conclude those organs and senses may serve similar functions in different animals?

[Matt]

Quote by: Laststandb I see that, but do animals really have thoughts? They do have a brain, but is it just conditioned response like a plant? I feel the the barrier of intelegence relys on the quest for pleasure.

Of course they have thoughts.

Example:

My dog is trained to do some tricks. Before I even ask her to do a trick (she can tell I'm about to ask her something when I ask her to sit first), she tries all of the tricks I've tought her, trying to find which one will get her praise (never tought her to do that). That indicates she is thinking, with out a doubt.

Why does my cat follow me around each night right before I go to bed? Because he knows I will brush him. He follows me waiting to be brushed, that means he is having thoughts about being brushed and is wanting to make sure he doesn't miss the opportunity to be brushed. And to your other point, he is seeking pleasure by following me to make sure he is going to be brushed and that I don't forget. So he is on a 'quest' for pleasure.

[Laststandb]

Quote by: Muckraker Why would you think animals don't have thoughts when they have all the same basic physical features that you do?

I'm not saying all animals, but talking to for-food animals like cows and pigs.

They probably have a sence of intelligence, so I can see the point of not trying to harm animinals.

However, should we even be allowed to eat meat?
The only justification probably would be survivle of the fittist or an special-centric response.

[big_lefty]

Quote by: Kleekl I'm a vegeterian myself. I have a cat and i'm never feeding him any meet. It's my dream to make all animals in the world stop eating each other. Wouldn't it be wonderfull of cheeta's stopped eating meat? Then all animals could just die just like they want. Humans don't need meat anymore, and I think we can make sure other animals don't need meat either.

Good grief! Cats are almost pure carnivores. Put on a carbohydrate rich diet and fed inferior quality vegetable protein, they develop diabetes very easily. Cats need meat. A dog could be okay on vegetable protein sources, but not a cat.
So if you really do love animals, take proper care of your cat. Don't let it suffer from the effects of an improper diet.

[big_lefty]

I believe we were given the benefit by God to be on the top of the food chain in most instances and have the most mental capacity of all living creatures on planet earth. With that, comes responsibilities. Now that we have found other food sources which have protein and fat, we don't need animals in our diet any longer. I think God wouldn't want us to kill animals if we don't need to.

Except vegetable protein is inferior to animal protein, as it is not complete, and vegetarians need to get supplementary iron and B12. I was never able to stay on a vegetarian diet. Even with supplementation, I suffered both iron deficiency anemia and pernicious anemia. My body seems to need to get those nutrients directly from meat.
I love animals and don't want them to die, but I'm not going to let myself get ill.
My point here s that the diet is not suitable for everyone.

The plant argument is something that IMO is not really worth discussing. If they can think or feel, it is very minimal, and way less then a chicken or cow.

How could you possibly know that? That's a rationalization. Besides, ~any~ ability to feel would mean they do suffer when we kill them for food.

[Matt]

Quote by: Laststandb I'm not saying all animals, but talking to for-food animals like cows and pigs. They probably have a sence of intelligence, so I can see the point of not trying to harm animinals. However, should we even be allowed to eat meat? The only justification probably would be survivle of the fittist or an special-centric response.

Pigs have been proven to be as smart as the average dog.

Quote by: big_lefty Good grief! Cats are almost pure carnivores. Put on a carbohydrate rich diet and fed inferior quality vegetable protein, they develop diabetes very easily. Cats need meat. A dog could be okay on vegetable protein sources, but not a cat. So if you really do love animals, take proper care of your cat. Don't let it suffer from the effects of an improper diet.

I agree, to a certain extent. Putting a cat on a meat-free diet would be difficult, and it would take alot of research. I'm sure you could do it, but you would have to do alot of research about it trying to find good foods that will be a good substitute to meat.

The oldest dog on the world in vegan.

[big_lefty]

Quote by: Muckraker Our bodies are also "meant" to have sex. Does that mean we should have sex with whoever we want as long as we are physically able to overpower them?

We don't need sex in order to be physically healthy. So in actual fact, we don't need it in the sense that it's essential to personal survival. The need is more psychological. We don't all need meat to survive, either. Some people can be meat free and maintain their health. Others can't.
But everybody can survive without sex, if need be.

[big_lefty]

I agree, to a certain extent. Putting a cat on a meat-free diet would be difficult, and it would take alot of research. I'm sure you could do it, but you would have to do alot of research about it trying to find good foods that will be a good substitute to meat. The oldest dog on the world in vegan.

Yeah, dogs are omnivores. A meat-free diet is doable for a dog.

[Matt]

Quote by: big_lefty Except vegetable protein is inferior to animal protein, as it is not complete, and vegetarians need to get supplementary iron and B12. I was never able to stay on a vegetarian diet. Even with supplementation, I suffered both iron deficiency anemia and pernicious anemia. My body seems to need to get those nutrients directly from meat. I love animals and don't want them to die, but I'm not going to let myself get ill. My point here s that the diet is not suitable for everyone. How could you possibly know that? That's a rationalization. Besides, ~any~ ability to feel would mean they do suffer when we kill them for food.

I think if people do the right research and are willing to look for some different foods, most would be easily able to become vegetarian (not every single person, but the vast majority). Almost all the nutrients you find in meat you can get from non-meat products too.

Come on, we all know plants don't have the abilities like we or animals do. If they did have thoughts or feelings, I'm sure science would have found them out by now. Say even if they did, it would be so minute it would probably add up to almost nothing.