Vegetarianism

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: pikatore Stop calling us a 'violent' species.

Are you saying we are a peaceful species? If so, then why do we need laws and institutions to protect us from violence?

Every organism on this planet has violent capabilities, and most animals practice violence as a way of life, for predation, territory, or self-defense.

You mean like deer in Kentucky have organized to war on the deer in Virginia? Or chipmunks enslave squirrels to harvest nuts for them? Perhaps elephants grab girraffes by the neck with their trunks to rough them up a little, wanting them to get out of the land so that the leaves or other plant life is left for them only.

Our range of violence is far wider than animals.

We aren't really that violent if you look at other animals.

Then give us examples of many other animals surpassing us in diversity of violence.

Tolerance is not a natural virtue, it's a human one.

Human history up until the present is marked by intolerance. We try to shield ourselves from that intolerance or the strong preying upon the weak through force of law. Open the newspaper and you will see many examples of intolerance amongst our species.

[sevendogs]

This is familiar rhetoric of AR. How about Budiansky theory about voluntary domestication. It works just fine with dogs. It does not take much to entice a wild animal to become a commensal with humans. Right now, I have a wild turkey female, which stick with our poultry. She walks near the barn, enters it and eats with chickens. Sometimes she even sleeps perching inside the barn. I never close its doors. Budiansky debased your philosophy about cruelty, pain and suffering under domestication.

[pikatore]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Are you saying we are a peaceful species? If so, then why do we need laws and institutions to protect us from violence?

I never said we were peaceful. There is no such thing as a 'peaceful' species. Stop looking at it from such a small minded point of view. Even seemingly harmless plants battle it out for survival against competition in thier own way.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin You mean like deer in Kentucky have organized to war on the deer in Virginia? Or chipmunks enslave squirrels to harvest nuts for them? Perhaps elephants grab girraffes by the neck with their trunks to rough them up a little, wanting them to get out of the land so that the leaves or other plant life is left for them only.

Deer will fight to the death over a mate, and can be extremely territorial and attack anything that may be remotely percieved as a threat.

Chipmunks will sometimes attack bird nests and kill hatchlings, and if the adult bird is small enough, kill the adult as well.

Elephant adult males engage in a pattern of behavior know as 'mufta' while females are ovulating, where they will attack ANY other males that they see. They are also territorial animals.

War is a fancy name for two herds of humans fighting with each other over a disagreement. Apes exhibit a more basic form of this behavior, usually over territory, but also sometimes over a more personal dispute. Also, meerkats have been known to actually invade other meerkats' territory and fight to the death. We aren't anything special, we just have more elaborate and effective ways to kill each other. That doesn't make us inherently violent. It comes with advanced intellegence.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Then give us examples of many other animals surpassing us in diversity of violence.

Just beacuse a bear can't carry around a gun, that doesn't make less violent as such. It's all relative. Just because we've discovered more ways to kill each other, that doesn't mean that an animal wouldn't do the same thing if it was smart enough to figure it out.

It's like saying we are a hungrier species because we've mastered tool use and made spoons and forks and knives.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Human history up until the present is marked by intolerance. We try to shield ourselves from that intolerance or the strong preying upon the weak through force of law. Open the newspaper and you will see many examples of intolerance amongst our species.

Look at other species, and tolerance isn't even in thier reportoire. It isn't even a concept they know yet. If one animal is neutral to another and has the power to kick it's arse, it'll DO it, purely because it will either gain food and/or respect (depending on the animal). Humans, you'll find, may have more complicated pathways to being motivated to do such a thing.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: pikatore We aren't anything special, we just have more elaborate and effective ways to kill each other. That doesn't make us inherently violent. It comes with advanced intellegence.

We are not only violent, I will admit. And I will also accept that our intelligence has made us come up with a number of ways to commit violence. But, it is that use of our intelligence for the search of even more ways to kill ourselves in ever more efficient means over a wide range of reasons and in sheer scope that comparatively gives us up to being an animal prone to more violence than other animals.

Just because we've discovered more ways to kill each other, that doesn't mean that an animal wouldn't do the same thing if it was smart enough to figure it out.

Appeal to ignorance.

It's like saying we are a hungrier species because we've mastered tool use and made spoons and forks and knives.

Kinda, but not quite accurate. Modified:

Wanting to consume more efficiently(often much further than our lives require) and control our environment better, we have therefore sought to master tool use and made spoons and forks and knives.

Analogically constructed against:

Wanting to consume or control more recourses to increase our chances for survival relative to other compeditor groups within our species, we have therefore evolved to use our intelligence to master tool use and weapons to give us an advantage over others.

The only thing is, we do not commit violence as most animals do -- i.e. for survival -- but ALSO for greed and gluttony.

Look at other species, and tolerance isn't even in thier reportoire. It isn't even a concept they know yet.

Different herds of the same species will sometimes come together in mass migrations. There is a lot of tolerance amongst same species animals.

If one animal is neutral to another and has the power to kick it's arse, it'll DO it, purely because it will either gain food and/or respect (depending on the animal).

Maybe you could clarify or reword this a little better. If they are neutral to one another, then why would they have a desire to kick the other`s arse. The neutrality would then not exist.

Humans, you'll find, may have more complicated pathways to being motivated to do such a thing.

And why is that relevant to us not being more disposed to violence amongst ourselves than other animals amongst themselves?

[sevendogs]

Animal rightists are craving for news about themselves to see "how successful they are". Do you remember, when cattle was stranded in Colorado blizzard last winter? A lot of people were involved trying to help to save starving animals, but there were no AR seen around. They would rather go to save one-eyed lion in Baghdad zoo. They should rather look what is in pots and plates and see how successful they are. People buy milk and meat as usual and industries are perfectly secure. Look at cooking recipes and websites in the Internet. Without meat, there are very few really satisfying dishes. Meat consumption is everywhere as usual as long as one can afford it.

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Good topic for discussion. Just wondering why you do not make a new thread for it?

As you suggested:

Vegetarian versus Carnivoir - which damages the Environment more

[kubedawg]

Sorry to bring back this topic, but I don't think I am quite finished expressing my views on it. And since this particular topic was heated and many people had views, I think it's only fair to start where we left off.

Anywho, here is a little poem I wrote today, as I was thinking about vegetarianism and how outlawing the killing of any animals would negatively affect the way we live and the lives of those animals:

Listen to this theory of mine, If we saved all the cows, we'd kill the planet in no time,
Methane would fill the skies, causing global warming to take over, that when we attempt to save our planet, we'd have nothing to show for,
The meat market would crumble, and here I am torn, production would cease and millions of animals would not have been born,
So is it better to live your life, just to be someone's dinner, or to not have lived life at all, now tell me who's the real sinner,
Killing animals might not be right in some people's minds, but as long as they don't suffer, I think we'll do just fine,
Beatings and torture despicable and sick, don't punish me, punish the f***ing pricks who did it,
So in conclusion, I still like my meat, so vegetarians stay the f*** out my business, everyone else, LETS EAT!

Seriously, if vegetarians somehow got control over people and no more animals we sacrificed for our eating pleasure, the cows will stop being mass produced, causing millions of cows that would have lived to about the age of adulthood, to not be born at all. The cows can't speak for themselves, but if I were a cow, I would have liked to live than not be born...

[nerdvincent]

Vegetarianism isn't a bad thing. I plan to get partially vegetarian: eat a lots and lots of fruits and vegetable, some fish here and there, plus cereals. Why? First, health. Second, environment.

[kubedawg]

I'm not saying it is, but trying to force everyone to stop eating meat IS a bad thing.

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: Gregory I know a few vegetarians, and I assume most of you aren't, but for the few who are... what is the specific reason for it? I know this isn't really a debate right now, but I suspect it could turn into one! Funny: VBForums

I'll start worrying about killing animals for food the day no one starves to death.

[kubedawg]

Genetic Engineering will remove hunger/famine throughout the world. Making crops able to yeild more via GE = more food.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: kubedawg So is it better to live your life, just to be someone's dinner, or to not have lived life at all, now tell me who's the real sinner, Killing animals might not be right in some people's minds, but as long as they don't suffer, I think we'll do just fine,

I am sure you would never have similar thinking for your own family, children in particular !!! You would never like your children or your ownself to enjoy living knowing that surely everybody is to be fed as a meal for some wild animal, say Lion.

Beatings and torture despicable and sick, don't punish me, punish the f***ing pricks who did it, So in conclusion, I still like my meat, so vegetarians stay the f*** out my business, everyone else, LETS EAT!

You have your own choice to eat meat neglecting your health but, please do not generalise the statement based on your incorrect reasoning.

Seriously, if vegetarians somehow got control over people and no more animals we sacrificed for our eating pleasure, the cows will stop being mass produced, causing millions of cows that would have lived to about the age of adulthood, to not be born at all. The cows can't speak for themselves, but if I were a cow, I would have liked to live than not be born...

No, you would have changed your statement if you were sure that every human (your family members inparticular) is to be fed as meals to other species.

[kubedawg]

Quote by: Kuldeep I am sure you would never have similar thinking for your own family, children in particular !!! You would never like your children or your ownself to enjoy living knowing that surely everybody is to be fed as a meal for some wild animal, say Lion.

yes I would. Cattle should only be killed when they reach adult life. I do not condone or agree with killing baby cattle to make Veal. Lets see, I would rather have lived, if only to be mauled by a huge lion and eaten, than not have lived at all.

Quote by: Kuldeep You have your own choice to eat meat neglecting your health but, please do not generalise the statement based on your incorrect reasoning.

Eating meat helps my health, it doesn't harm it. Eating processed foods and drinking soda pop ruins my health.

Quote by: Kuldeep No, you would have changed your statement if you were sure that every human (your family members inparticular) is to be fed as meals to other species.

Well it's obviously easier to not put myself or anyone else on the chopping block, because as humans, we have a choice, but like I said earlier, I'd rather live, only to be killed and eaten once I reach adulthood, rather than not have lived at all.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: kubedawg Well it's obviously easier to not put myself or anyone else on the chopping block, because as humans, we have a choice, but like I said earlier, I'd rather live, only to be killed and eaten once I reach adulthood, rather than not have lived at all.

That is good one, we as humen have choice. Meaning, animals are being killed since poor animals have no choice but to taste human art of killing, when and where human wishes !!! This very well proves beyond doubt that Humen do not want they should be killed, so must be animals too. Humen can express and defend themselves !!! While; Alas Animals are not capable of over powering the notorious humen. When wild animal kills some human, its whole community is short dead. This is not a fair deal in the eyes of natural justice, please !!!

From your second statement it shows that even human if were destined to get killed by imaginary some superior race they should be killed as adults...22, 30, 40....90 years of age. How could you decide what would have adulthood age for humen in that case???!!!

My logic is simple: Live and let live up to everybody's natural death !!!

[kubedawg]

Quote by: Kuldeep That is good one, we as humen have choice. Meaning, animals are being killed since poor animals have no choice but to taste human art of killing, when and where human wishes !!! This very well proves beyond doubt that Humen do not want they should be killed, so must be animals too. Humen can express and defend themselves !!! While; Alas Animals are not capable of over powering the notorious humen. When wild animal kills some human, its whole community is short dead. This is not a fair deal in the eyes of natural justice, please !!! From your second statement it shows that even human if were destined to get killed by imaginary some superior race they should be killed as adults...22, 30, 40....90 years of age. How could you decide what would have adulthood age for humen in that case???!!! My logic is simple: Live and let live up to everybody's natural death !!!

My logic is simple: Survival of the fittest species. If evolution is correct, we've adapted to many changes throught history, and are still here. You ever heard of the food chain? You think humans are and have been vegetarians since the beginning of our existance? What makes you think we're going to change now? What makes you think it's immoral to kill an animal for food, even if we have the choice not to eat meat?

What about plants? Plants are alive, and by that example I ask, is it immoral to kill a plant for food? Vegetarians eat plants all the time, but plants don't have a choice whether they are to be eaten or not. Maybe they cannot feel pain, but they can at least sense their surroundings, adapt to change in weather. Plants don't have central nervous systems, but they still have the ability to feel, in a much different way than animals including humans do. However, they are still alive, and if you believe killing animals is immoral, but not plants, you then are a hypocrite.

[Kuldeep]

I suppose you have seen my thread in this very section of Volconvo "Are you Non-vegetarian...why of it??".

If not, then please refer. Most the points you raised were already raised therein and replied as well !!

[kubedawg]

Indeed, but this topic has been around longer ^_^.

[Dieval]

Mmmmm...meat!

[Wiggin]

Animals eat animals and animals eat plants. It's just the way things are.

I could see it as a problem since we are the one species that demands to spread, reproduce and survive. We could end up decimating many species just to satisfy hunger.

I'm not going to stop eating meat though.

[christibe]

Quote by: nerdvincent Vegetarianism isn't a bad thing. I plan to get partially vegetarian: eat a lots and lots of fruits and vegetable, some fish here and there, plus cereals. Why? First, health. Second, environment.

That is wonderful Vincent, until that time comes, here is something going on in Britain right now as an act in public awareness on the methods used in intensive chicken farming on the large scale that might help you think about where the meat you buy comes from. Home I don't know where you live, but if you are in the UK you can see Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's program. You mention health as your primary concern for vegetarianism which is entirely valid as this program will highlight. The intent of this program is to encourage viewers to switch to organic and/or 'free-range' meat. Hugh actually runs his own intensive farm for this program with the end result to see if his audience will eat the chickens at the end.


Though I find the program I am promoting repulsive since it exploits the hens, I know that it will have the result of increasing awareness to more people than the decades old stock footage of farms we've had since Hugh is something of a celebrity, therefore, I support what he is doing since it will give the UK that much more compassion. So, I felt compelled to throw it in here, since this is how word travels.


Disclaimer: I am vegan, an animal advocate, and support public awareness and encourage anyone interested in learning for themselves at their own rate about lessening their use of animals. I know that I must be reconciled with this until I or other animal advocates are able to form the absolute that compels others to share our set of categorical imperatives.