Vegetarianism

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: sevendogs Well, if you are so respectful to your own opinion, why you, AR, do not allow debates in your own forums? This is not a very respectful policy on your part.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!? I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH WHATEVER FREAKIN FORUM YOU WERE BANNED FROM. I AM NOT THE MOD OR ADMID OF WHICHEVER FORUM YOU WERE BANNED FROM SO THEY ARE NOT MINE! GET OVER IT AND STOP BLEEDING THAT FORUM'S STUFF OVER TO HERE!

Geesh, quit whining about that because I have no control of it, and as for the other part of your post above, I have no idea what point you are trying to make in regards to vegetarianism. If you want to make a discussion on what dogs and wolves like to eat, then why not make a specific thread for that? -- because I don`t see how you are relating that as a counter-argument to vegetarianism.

[Jack]

This thread is about Vegetarianism. Discussions of other forums and their policies, or anything else that doesn't directly relate to the topic should be taken elsewhere.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready ...... or by simply putting the animal unconscious before hand.

Why not to recommend the same technique for human being??? Because you have special affection for your own specie, knowing pretty well though, human meat tastes much better as pointed out ealier in one of my posts above.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: sevendogs This question is not for me, perhaps. I have been there, when I worked in Oklahoma State Univeristy. It was my favorite place to be, because they allowed me to pick up food for my dogs for free. I came there two-three times every week. My dogs like meat very much.

I am not surprised since dogs are Carnivorous by nature but, I am sure humans are not they were turned from Herbivorous to Omnivorous during later evolution. I wonder! Why most of humans like meat when could easily manage withe vegetables only?? :)

[sevendogs]

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!? I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH WHATEVER FREAKIN FORUM YOU WERE BANNED FROM. I AM NOT THE MOD OR ADMID OF WHICHEVER FORUM YOU WERE BANNED FROM SO THEY ARE NOT MINE! GET OVER IT AND STOP BLEEDING THAT FORUM'S STUFF OVER TO HERE!
Well, I am puzzled, why everyone knows of those AR forums, but you have no idea of them. Well I will direct you there in the next post. They are gnashing their teeth around the same topics, which you constantly raise here, again and again. This is a part of AR network at all levels and by all means - emotions is your tool of spreading your views. Well, let us take a look at animals living long enough until their death of natural causes. What kind of death it may be? I know of this first hand, because I have worked all my life with wild, captured from wild and raised at home animals. Did you try it at least once? I worked in nature preserves, where hunting was banned for many years and all major predators were exterminated as vermin. Deer population was very high, there were no undergrowth in the fores, Old trees were dying, but there were no young sapling growing to replace old ones. It was one ugly, very unusual forest. Deer were plentiful, but hungry, some were nearly dead, shaking, barely walking, they even did not try to escape. Even my hunting dog was disinterested to chase them. It was slow, painful death of starvation and parasites. Eventually, we convinced the authorities to take action and shoot deer to cut the population density down. We brought it to a normal capacity of the habitat. A few wolves came from elsewhere and we welcomed them. Hunting in season came back and everything was back in balance. I have my own chicken flock, which I butcher myself for food. They live happy life, walking free under protection of my free running hunting dogs. Home raised chickens are a lot tastier then those slimy factory raised chickens from groceries. However, I have a few favorites among them, which I let to live as long as they can. Our rooster is included. The rooster usually dominates all cockerels, which we raised by each fall. However, when he is getting older and weaker, after about 7-10 years, he becomes "deposed" by young roosters. Then, he is too old to eat. I chop his head off and cook for the dogs. Older hens sometimes die of natural causes, it is a slow death; the chicken gasps for air, sometimes jerks in convulsion. This is her "reward" after about 10 years of free and happy life. Under natural conditions, majority of herbivorous birds die as young being caught by all kinds of predators. Predators catching birds kill fast. Even bird eating snakes do it fast, their venom is particularly potent. I do it so fast - chop the head off with a sharp hatched, drain the blood and go for plucking feathers off. Good food! Natural ways to control populations of herbivores are very cruel. What kind of deer or partridges found among predators' "victims"? The young, the female, the pregnant female in particular and birds brooding young become victims often. It is so disheartening. Even your "strong heart" would sink. Wolves like to kill pregnant moose females. I do not blame them. It is easier to do then dealing with a strong male in prime condition and armed with antlers and sharp hooves. Young chicks remain unprotected and become easier prey for other smaller predators or die of starvation and weather elements. What kind of cruelty bothers you? Is it my chopping off chicken heads? My chickens live free like wild animals. They voluntarily return every evening back in their barn, where they find food and safety. All day long they forage, eating wild grass and hunting bugs, basking on the sun and bathing in sand. I tell you again: Eat your leaves and beans and do not teach others morality. Go back to school and take classes in evolution and population ecology. Our way of life is ecologically correct, minimum of pollution. Actually we do not throw away anything, except some wrapping of merchandise bought in city. All organic garbage goes back to the soil or as food for animals. We have something even for wildlife, whcih I like to watch. However, when hunting season comes, shooting some deer is important. In Virginia, deer population is still too high.

[StrongHeartsWin]

First, paragraphs are your friend.

2nd, I ask you to re-read Isherwood's statement above about this thread. It seems to have been ignored by you. You seem to be continuously addressing Animal Rights or hunting without tying it into vegetarianism in any coherant way--other than just a rant. There are appropriate threads for Animal Rights and hunting. Please search those out and post in the appropriate threads.

Sevendogs, I don`t mind you bringing up hunting or Animal Rights here, so long as you tie it into vegetarianism. Instead of doing that, you are going off on wide arching tangeants.

[sevendogs]

Kuldeep, your claim:
I am not surprised since dogs are Carnivorous by nature but, I am sure humans are not they were turned from Herbivorous to Omnivorous during later evolution. I wonder! Why most of humans like meat when could easily manage withe vegetables only??
Is incorrect. According to physical evidence of evolution of hominids, our ancestor Dryopithecus was omnivore and so were our earlier ancestors. They ate everything handy to catch and tasty. All specialized in herbivore primate species became branched dead ends or other then hominid directions of evolution, only omnivores continued to true hominid stage, where we are now.

[StrongHeartsWin]

With more and more people turning towards vegetarianism it makes the lifestyle even easier as more supermarkets and restaurants seek to cater to that niche. In the last 10 years the number of vegetarians has doubled. In all likelyhood it would be too much to ask for a doubling every 10 years, but if the rate stays strong society will eventually change at the level of customs and law to reflect a new view on diet, respect for health, environment, and animals.

"The numbers have more than doubled in the past 10years," McStay said in a phone interview. "Our most recent survey from 2006 shows that there are about 4.7million vegetarians in the U.S."

Some estimates are higher. According to a 2002 Time/CNN poll conducted by Harris Interactive, more than 8 million adult Americans consider themselves vegetarians.

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin With more and more people turning towards vegetarianism it makes the lifestyle even easier as more supermarkets and restaurants seek to cater to that niche... According to a 2002 Time/CNN poll conducted by Harris Interactive, more than 8 million adult Americans consider themselves vegetarians.[/indent]

I first became vegetarian in 1975. Then it was difficult to go out and eat anywhere. At that time people still cooked with lard. Very few places cook with lard anymore because it upsets the stomachs of some patrons.

There are very few restaurants now that don't have at least one dish that is vegetarian. I can eat almost anywhere. Though once in a while I find out that the restaurant was less than truthful and I get indegestion. I just never go back to that restaurant and steer everyone I can away from them for that reason.

As for vegetarians becoming a majority in the future. Mankind started out as vegetarians, we evolved into eating meat. It looks like we are going to evolve back into being vegetarians; by necessity.

If you look at the major contributors of greenhouse gases that contribute strongly to Global Warming, cow dung is near the top of the list. A cow can produce up to 150 pounds of cow dung per day. That's a lot of poop. But the methane generated by that dung is enormous.

I can realistically see where most people will eventually be vegetarian, just out of necessity in order for our species to survive.

[pikatore]

Quote by: jamesbdunn As for vegetarians becoming a majority in the future. Mankind started out as vegetarians, we evolved into eating meat. It looks like we are going to evolve back into being vegetarians; by necessity.

I'm sorry, but where on earth did that reasoning come from?!

Homo sapiens are by definition omnivorous, seeing that is what man's species is. I don't know where you pulled out the info about us origionally being vege.

[jamesbdunn]

I'll pander to a few different perspectives:

Adam and Eve were vegetarian:
Living (and eating) like a caveman?

Just because we can be omnivorous doesn't mean our bodies are adapted for eating meat:
"In The Scientific Basis of Vegetarianism, Dr. William Harris analyzes hundreds of studies and concludes that the evidence is irrefutable that eating meat leads to cardiovascular disease, various cancers, diabetes, osteoporosis, and other illnesses-a $123 billion cost directly attributable to meat-eating, and this is a conservative figure, as it doesn’t even include costs attributable to lost productivity and premature death. It also doesn’t include costs attributable to the 60 to 70 percent of food poisonings (including 6,000 deaths) that are linked to meat intake or the ill effects on human health of consuming animals who have been pumped full of hormones and antibiotics. In fact, the U.S. surgeon general indicates that 69 percent of U.S. deaths are diet-related."

Research showing Hominids were vegetarian:
History of the Human Diet

Recent history:
India for a long time was dominantly vegetarian, Hindu
Japan for a long time was dominantly vegetarian, Buddists

How long does a race need to be vegetarian before they are considered as part of our natural history?

With all the growth hormones and the stress on our planet related to global warming, eating meat is becoming undesireable and considered something eaten by primitive thinking peoples.

[DEEJ85]

If we were vegetarian and then evolved into eating meat. Doesn't the fact that we evolved (which is a natural process) to eat meat, mean that we are naturally omnivorous? and If we are naturally omnivorous doesn't that mean we are meant to be omnivorous?

what about other omnivores? they might have been originally herbivores and evolved to eat meat. Is this mean that they are unnaturally omnivorous?

[sevendogs]

It seems to me the answer why some of us are vegetarians is outside our biological needs in nutrition. It is caused either by odd digestion, or by prejudices and religious convictions.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: DEEJ85 Doesn't the fact that we evolved (which is a natural process) to eat meat, mean that we are naturally omnivorous? and If we are naturally omnivorous doesn't that mean we are meant to be omnivorous?

And this reasoning begs the question:

Doesn`t the fact that we evolved (which is a natural process) to be violent amongst our own species, mean that we are naturally violent amongst our own species? and if we are naturally violent doesnt that mean we are meant to be violent?

So, then why should we go against evolution and try not to be violent to one another?

[DEEJ85]

My post was more directed at those people who insist that we are originally only ate vegetables and then evolved to eat meat. Therefore we should revert to our "more natural" vegetable eating ways.

sorry I should have been more clear. I do agree with you that we have surpassed many harmful yet natural practices behind and for good reasons.

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: DEEJ85 My post was more directed at those people who insist that we are originally only ate vegetables and then evolved to eat meat. Therefore we should revert to our "more natural" vegetable eating ways. sorry I should have been more clear. I do agree with you that we have surpassed many harmful yet natural practices behind and for good reasons.

I can agree with this statement. This is why we have a brain. We learn.

To revert back to the starting point of this thread. I am vegetarian because I do not believe I am of god-like stature and above all other creatures. I am part of the ecological cycle of life. I truely love all that exists. So I eat that which will cause the least damage to my environment while still sustaining my and my family's health.

Starting point for another discussion:

• What are the environmental damages related to each chosen diet?

Ratio of Farm land versus Ranches encroaching upon natural resources.
Effects of Pesticides and Herbicides.
Contaminants in meat versus vegetables.
How these contaminants go back into our environment and their effects.
....

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: jamesbdunn Starting point for another discussion: What are the environmental damages related to each chosen diet? Ratio of Farm land versus Ranches encroaching upon natural resources. Effects of Pesticides and Herbicides. Contaminants in meat versus vegetables. How these contaminants go back into our environment and their effects. ....

Good topic for discussion. Just wondering why you do not make a new thread for it? It can stand on its own, seperate from the topic of this topic, OP, and discussion up till now,which seems to have been more about the morals and ethics of killing/using animals for food.

[pikatore]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Doesn`t the fact that we evolved (which is a natural process) to be violent amongst our own species, mean that we are naturally violent amongst our own species? and if we are naturally violent doesnt that mean we are meant to be violent?

incorrect. we are actually social animals. of course violence may be present in some situations, but despite that, as a complete species, we have advanced by working together. evolution isn't perfect.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: pikatore incorrect.

You mean we are not a violent species amongst ourselves, and we have not evolved into a violent species amongst ourselves? I don`t think you mean that because you accept violence as a part of us in a sentence of yours below. So, what is incorrect?

we are actually social animals.

Yes, we are. The construct I put forth doesn`t deny that. We are social animals and violence amongst ourselves is a social marker of our species. However, we also display cooperation. One of the reasons for cooperation is to battle the violence we exhibit amongst ourselves. Laws and institutions address that.

of course violence may be present in some situations, but despite that, as a complete species, we have advanced by working together.

Yes, we have advanced despite being a violent species. So?

evolution isn't perfect.

You mean there is some invisible perfect template that exists, a grade sheet if you will, that evolution veers off of? Veering off what IS IS a part of evolution, isn`t it?

[pikatore]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Yes, we have advanced despite being a violent species. So?

Stop calling us a 'violent' species. Every organism on this planet has violent capabilities, and most animals practice violence as a way of life, for predation, territory, or self-defense.

We aren't really that violent if you look at other animals. Tolerance is not a natural virtue, it's a human one.