Vegetarianism

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Athena One more reason for at least reducing the meat I consume, is it takes too much land and energy for meat. Our heavy meat diet is not possible around the world, so for moral reasons, I favor foods that can sustain the world. Another moral concern is it might not be a good thing having an industry that requires humans to kill.

Well said, Athena. It is the more moral choice to choose not to kill -- particularly when it is not necessary, as is the situation we find ourselves in this modern world.

[namguy69]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin I know flesh eaters who are health nuts and who look like hell compared to me. Oh well. So much for that point. Though, Carl Lewis, a source we can all confirm, a vegan, sure looks healthy, not only now, but during his competitive days as well.

I think what we're not bringing into the equation is the genealogy factor, that also plays a very big part in health.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: namguy69 I think what we're not bringing into the equation is the genealogy factor, that also plays a very big part in health.

Perhaps you may want to be more specific.

As for Carl Lewis, he specifically states that it was after he began his switch to a non-flesh diet that he improved in his sport and performed his best in virtually all fields that he competed in -- if not all.

I certainly am not saying flesh eaters cannot be healthy and perform at high levels -- they most sure can. I merely listed Mr. Lewis' history due to the childish post in testimony form that cannot be validated, or if validated, is easily cancelled out in the opposite. That is what makes it childish -- if not a very low level of debate style.

[namguy69]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Perhaps you may want to be more specific. As for Carl Lewis, he specifically states that it was after he began his switch to a non-flesh diet that he improved in his sport and performed his best in virtually all fields that he competed in -- if not all. I certainly am not saying flesh eaters cannot be healthy and perform at high levels -- they most sure can. I merely listed Mr. Lewis' history due to the childish post in testimony form that cannot be validated, or if validated, is easily cancelled out in the opposite. That is what makes it childish -- if not a very low level of debate style.

It's a scientific fact that some of us are pre disposed to certain ailments and conditions which one may or may not be able to control. Our diets are certainly a big factor in maintaining good all around health, but there are other factors at play.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: namguy69 It's a scientific fact that some of us are pre disposed to certain ailments and conditions which one may or may not be able to control. Our diets are certainly a big factor in maintaining good all around health, but there are other factors at play.

Anomalies do exist, but for the most part, in debate, the general is what is targeted.

Perhaps some gene therapy could go a long way towards addressing those ailments that certain stratums of society are predisposed to experiencing.

[namguy69]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Anomalies do exist, but for the most part, in debate, the general is what is targeted. Perhaps some gene therapy could go a long way towards addressing those ailments that certain stratums of society are predisposed to experiencing.

What you say is very true, I certainly agree with you.

I'll spot you an example. A very good friend of mine jogs 13 miles every other day, and works in a warehouse, and sticks to strick diet. This fellow has high blood preasure, and a faulty heart! Now I realize that this is certainly not the norm but neverless that's it.

[Athena]

Quote by: namguy69 It's a scientific fact that some of us are pre disposed to certain ailments and conditions which one may or may not be able to control. Our diets are certainly a big factor in maintaining good all around health, but there are other factors at play.

How about this. We change as we age and it might be good to consider changing our deit as well. Dogs need less calories and protien when they are older, and I think the same is true for humans.

There are some things about being older that can suck and some things that very enjoyable. For example it doesn't have to be "this" or "that". It can be "this" and "that". I still eat meat occasionally. Usually chicken. But it is just so easy to cut up a loaf of tofu and make myself 4 dinners out of it. However, I am concerned the sauces I use to favor my dinners are high in sodium. So then I eat bananas to cancel out the sodium.

May be when I was younger I wouldn't have enjoyed east Indian food so much, but we have a Taste of India restaurant that made fall in love with no meat Indian dishes.

[namguy69]

Quote by: Athena How about this. We change as we age and it might be good to consider changing our deit as well. Dogs need less calories and protien when they are older, and I think the same is true for humans. There are some things about being older that can suck and some things that very enjoyable. For example it doesn't have to be "this" or "that". It can be "this" and "that". I still eat meat occasionally. Usually chicken. But it is just so easy to cut up a loaf of tofu and make myself 4 dinners out of it. However, I am concerned the sauces I use to favor my dinners are high in sodium. So then I eat bananas to cancel out the sodium. May be when I was younger I wouldn't have enjoyed east Indian food so much, but we have a Taste of India restaurant that made fall in love with no meat Indian dishes.

Everyone has different tastes, and tastes do change as we get older and what you say is true and I do agree. East Indian, we ate it once at a four star restraurant and as I said before we both got sicker than dogs! It's just not for us, I'm knocking the food I'm just saying it's not to our taste. Our taste meaning my wife and myself.

[ThisNameIsTaken]

i voted not a veggie. I'm not because i don't have a moral dilema with death. I also have no moral dilema with creating something for it's usefullness and I rather enjoy some meat dishes.

I am aware that some practices currently used in raising and slaughtering livestock are inhumane and personnaly feel it is distasteful to be hurting something which will help us. However i do feel that it is possible to raise and kill livestock with respect and compassion. So to say the only answer to the suffering of livestock animals is to quit breeding them and eat veggies etc. i think is very narrow-minded.

I also disagree with the idea that everyone can be vegetarian, many people have other issues which make a vegetarian diet either extremely difficult or potentialy life threatening. Specific issues could vary from simply not having the ability to acquire the neccesary food items (or supplements) to maintain a healthy lifestyle to people who have a pre-existing condition which places other dietery concerns first.

I fully support those who choose to be veggies though, i just hope they do it safely and try to encourage them to respect other individuals dietery choices.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I also disagree with the idea that everyone can be vegetarian, many people have other issues which make a vegetarian diet either extremely difficult or potentialy life threatening. Specific issues could vary from simply not having the ability to acquire the neccesary food items (or supplements) to maintain a healthy lifestyle to people who have a pre-existing condition which places other dietery concerns first.

Or those who decide that they don't want to and that they aren't going to put a cow's rights over their own, like Osborn.

[namguy69]

Quote by: ThisNameIsTaken i voted not a veggie. I'm not because i don't have a moral dilema with death. I also have no moral dilema with creating something for it's usefullness and I rather enjoy some meat dishes. I am aware that some practices currently used in raising and slaughtering livestock are inhumane and personnaly feel it is distasteful to be hurting something which will help us. However i do feel that it is possible to raise and kill livestock with respect and compassion. So to say the only answer to the suffering of livestock animals is to quit breeding them and eat veggies etc. i think is very narrow-minded. I also disagree with the idea that everyone can be vegetarian, many people have other issues which make a vegetarian diet either extremely difficult or potentialy life threatening. Specific issues could vary from simply not having the ability to acquire the neccesary food items (or supplements) to maintain a healthy lifestyle to people who have a pre-existing condition which places other dietery concerns first. I fully support those who choose to be veggies though, i just hope they do it safely and try to encourage them to respect other individuals dietery choices.

I totally agree with you...

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Show me some strength atheletes who are vegetarian, and equal to those in strength and ability as meat eaters of the SAME lifestyle. Show me some vegetarians who have survived in harsh enviroments (stranded) away from civilization and or "their" gardens. Vegetarians are STRICTLY societal reliant in any number. Meat eaters can be either hunter gatherer, or societal.

Compare elephant's strength with any other meat eating animal. You would get reply to your questions.:(

[Osborn F Enready]

Kuldeep said: Compare elephant's strength with any other meat eating animal. You would get reply to your questions.

Weigh some elephant leg bones, and then weigh some human leg bones.

You are also assuming size and weight are "strength".

I am quite serious in my argument on that point.

Strength atheletes are very unique, are they not? As is their diets?

Video Link of Mariusz, a true strongman.
Worlds Strongest Man Video

The Journal of Strongmen.
Weight lifting, functional strength training for strength athletes: MILO Journal

There are "some" vegan powerlifters, no doubt. Are they competitive?

[Deus_ultima]

I think the "we are healthier than thou" thing is bull.

Some of my friends are vegetarian and they are very healthy.
Some of my friends aren't and they are very healthy.

A friend of mine was a world class fighter and was vegetarian.
I know another ex-world champion boxer who wasn't. Who cares.

But if your argument is "ethics" what about Fergus the Forager's way.

This Brit is mostly vegetarian, probably due to accessibility but when he eats meat, it's roadkill.

So the animal has lived it's life in a natural way, eaten what it wanted to eat but met an unfortunate death.

Fergus's argument is that leaving it there is wasted food, really. So he has a look and smell to make sure it's good...then proceeds cooking and eating it.

In a recent TV special, he cooked for 30 people in a restaurant feeding them strickly roadkill (on that night it was rabbit, pheasant and badger). He gets his vegetables out there in nature, searching for mushrooms, roots, native fruit and harvests seaweed.

PETA gave him an "Ethical Cuisine" award.
http://www.wildmanwildfood.co.uk/

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Weigh some elephant leg bones, and then weigh some human leg bones. You are also assuming size and weight are "strength". I am quite serious in my argument on that point. Strength atheletes are very unique, are they not? As is their diets?

Don't know, how I should react to your doubts. It seems you are in full dalima yourself, not able to astertain whether or not diet has a relation with strengh. Then also you have introduced yet another variable "size"...I am fully confused with your introduction of size as another variable!!!!! The argumernt is being turning to full biology starting from genes and DNA.

Though Deus_ultima has helped us to conclude diet has no direct relation to strength. But then, size I feel yes it has to an extent some relation to strength. Elephants are not only huge but have a tremendous strength. I do not understand relation of weight of bones with strength, please explain if you have any information.

I think we are getting deviated from the main point of discussion. The thing I pointed out earlier was that most of livingbeings have set their diet may be due to evolution over thousands of years suiting to their anatomy and metabolism. Distinctly, looking at the apparent physical difference in their behaviour, I further tried to point out that most of meat eating animals lick the fluids while vege eating animals suck the fluids. Also meat eating animals have canions type of teeth while veges have cud chewing type of teeth.

Now since humans suck the fluid and have maximum cud chewing type of teeth, we should fall anatomically in the category of veg eating animals. Some of the debators have advocated their meat eating as pleasure for them, terming humans as omnivorous, animals who consume both veg and meat...I have no objection for that, but what our digetive system is suitable to??? Is it more suited to...veg or meat?????? Some unbiased biologist should decide about this and doctors should recommend the correct diet veg or meat for humans after the decision!!!!

[G. Adams]

The pre-human Ostrolapithicus gained it's larger brain size by becoming omnivorous. Humans spread out over the globe by following herds and seeking new game when we had cleared an area.

Look at the chimp, it has developed tools to dig for ants for animal food source. Is it too much of a leap to suggest we did something similar? And if so, then we will have refined those tools to make us more successful. In this way, the development of tools is inextricably linked to our omnivorous diet.

It is also important to note that meat is the only part of the Chimp diet that they share with other chimps, because it is vital to their survival. (they do, apparantly, jealously guard organ meats though, as these are the most nutrient dense)

And when someone says gorillas are stronger because they are vegetarian, they are hiding facts. Gorillas undoubtedly consume animal proteins in the form of insects when they eat wild fruit. Again, have you ever seen gorillas grooming each other? What do they do when they find insects in the other gorillas hair? They eat it.

Back to humans perhaps. Let's look at the Lapps, or Inuits. They have a diet of over 80% animal products, and at times during the year even more. They are, for normal people (by that I mean not body builders or strength athletes) immensely strong and sturdy. They have great teeth and dental structure, a sign of good health (why do you think slave owners and horse dealers check teeth?). Tell them animal products are unhealthy:rolleyes:

[Osborn F Enready]

Thanks G Adams.

Kuldeep, Deus, in regards to points made.

Deus said: Some of my friends are vegetarian and they are very healthy. Some of my friends aren't and they are very healthy. A friend of mine was a world class fighter and was vegetarian. I know another ex-world champion boxer who wasn't. Who cares.

I do, for the sake of this topic. The fact is that when you have a varied diet between beef and vegetables, fruit and fowl, the body is constantly in rich sources of biodegradeable protein, amino acids, and other essential building blocks to building lean muscle mass, and thick, strong bones. It also helps to regulate your metabolism.

I am not saying that vegetarian CANT COMPETE, I am saying it is MUCH HARDER and requires much more planning, and attention to diet for basic essentials.

When I lifted, I averaged between 150-250 grams of protein per day. I did this eating 3 average meals, and 3 "between meal" supplements.

That is VERY hard to do as a vegetarian, especially if you don't want to take in 150-250 grams of soy protein per day.

White chicken meat, and turkey meat, are hard to surpass in protein to carb ratio, especially for people like me who HAVE to maintain low carbs and fats with huge protein numbers to keep the muscle mass lean, and still allow fat burning from basal fat. Modern supplements make this much easier..... but, where does a vegetarian go for health supplements? Soy.

There is a huge difference between soy and whey protein.

I prefer whey first, lean white meat second, and soy third, for results ON MY BODY, which I tested, and tried on myself.

Deus said: This Brit is mostly vegetarian, probably due to accessibility but when he eats meat, it's roadkill.

Thats a great answer for those willing to take the time and effort, and those that have the stomach for such. I have no problem with killing and butchering my own kills, or roadkill, but a lot of people do, and wouldn't.

My point is that choice is a humans individuals option when it comes to meat or vegetarian or balanced between both diet. I exercise my options to meet the needs of my lifestyle and my body.

I do know if I spent 3-5 hours in a gym per day, trying to lift or body-build competetively, I wouldn't be relying on road-kill for my protein intake.

Kuldeep said: Though Deus_ultima has helped us to conclude diet has no direct relation to strength.

No, Deus didn't do that. He was trying to allude to that, but that is not the case. I don't accept that, as I know better from personal experience.

Kuldeep said: Now since humans suck the fluid and have maximum cud chewing type of teeth, we should fall anatomically in the category of veg eating animals. Some of the debators have advocated their meat eating as pleasure for them, terming humans as omnivorous, animals who consume both veg and meat...I have no objection for that, but what our digetive system is suitable to??? Is it more suited to...veg or meat?????? Some unbiased biologist should decide about this and doctors should recommend the correct diet veg or meat for humans after the decision!!

Why do I need a doctor to TELL me a generic observation?

I have experimented with my diet in the extreme in all directions, and I know what works for me.

I don't need a doctor to tell me when my stomach is upset, or when my bowels are loose. I don't need a doctor to tell me which protein digests better in my own body, since I keep good records and am a hell of an observer, and most importantly, I am in tune with my body better than any doctor or biologist could be.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: Kuldeep I have no objection for that, but what our digetive system is suitable to??? Is it more suited to...veg or meat??????

Well, I suppose humans can become used to eating almost anything, from brussel sprouts to turtles to other humans to even frog legs. :)

But yes, I've known many people who would vomit and throw up after eating their first chicken curry. It justly sounds absurd to many that some can actually become used to eating a cow's meat or something of that sort. But eh, I guess they'll keep doing it and adapt I suppose.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Epistemologist But yes, I've known many people who would vomit and throw up after eating their first chicken curry. It justly sounds absurd to many that some can actually become used to eating a cow's meat or something of that sort. But eh, I guess they'll keep doing it and adapt I suppose.

I think I'll just say horses for courses. For example, I think its beyond imagination that vegatarians dislike the taste of meat. Does that mean that im not doing what I was biologically adapted to, kuldeep? You think that science textbooks around the world label humans to be omnivorous because of some conspiracy?

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: pikatore I think I'll just say horses for courses. For example, I think its beyond imagination that vegatarians dislike the taste of meat. Does that mean that im not doing what I was biologically adapted to, kuldeep? You think that science textbooks around the world label humans to be omnivorous because of some conspiracy?

If you're not used to it, then you'll get sick from eating it unless perhaps if you're starving and you have no choice. Of course, they can take some small portions of it over time and get used to it so it doesn't make them sick.

I suppose you could even get used to eating rocks, although they wouldn't have any nutritional value and might physically damage your digestive tract with their jagged edges.

What we're used to eating, I suppose, correlates to our cultures.