Vegetarianism

[Diogenes]

Killed it with that trusty old sledge-hammer of yours, did you Diogenes?

Sadly, no...store bought...just not the same thing as cutting off their heads and seeing them run around.

Does the thought of that chicken's likely experience of fear, terror, pain, or any level of suffering whatsoever, cause any niggling amount of compassion with you?

No more than the lion that gorges on a antelope, or the house cat that brings home a mouse.

Maybe you're different but in my experience with vegetarians ( and I do know a few ) they have very selective compassion...they will get on their soapbox over a cow or a deer but when it comes to snakes and mice and rats they have no problem disposing of them...

guess they're just not ' cute ' enough for them.

Environmentalists are just as bad...I know a few of them too...they love that soapbox, but not one of them uses a re-usable cloth to wipe their butt...they use toilet paper just like the rest of us. And gawd forbid they get rid of that SUV and trade it in for a bus ticket.

#cough# hypocrites #hack#

By the way do you happen to have any animal products in your home...or products that were used on an animal in any way...or any product that may contain any part of an animal...I'd be willing to bet that you do...even if you're not personally aware of it.

I've never met a ' true ' environmentalist or a ' true ' vegetarian ...and I likely never will...they are all very selective in how far they're willing to commit to their soapbox.

[Cruella]

Veganism and Vegetarian threads merged.

[RickSp]

Well you have proved your point to me. "Vegangelicals" are indeed tedious and “holier-than-thou.” I am convinced.

I'm not, however, convinced that I should stop being an omnivore the way that nature, evolution and human physiology intended. But, yes, vegans can be very annoying, condescending and “holier-than-thou.” Must be an amino acid deficiency.

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: Questatement Did I not mention that my trees live on while still producing food for me?

Spare me a couple of your finest nuts, in that case, Quest.

RickSP: But, yes, vegans can be very annoying, condescending and “holier-than-thou.” Must be an amino acid deficiency.

But they taste delicious, Rick.

[RickSp]

Quote by: GeminiBrian But they taste delicious, Rick.

An excellent and oft overlooked point, Gemini. Thank you.

I usually refer to myself as a vegetarian once removed. I usually only eat vegetarians - chickens, cows, pigs, and so on.

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: RickSp An excellent and oft overlooked point, Gemini. Thank you. I usually refer to myself as a vegetarian once removed. I usually only eat vegetarians - chickens, cows, pigs, and so on.

[GeminiBrian]

[DEEJ85]

I wish vegetarians would stop referring to an animals will to live.


ALL organism have a will to live, Bacteria, Archea, Fungi, Animals and Plants.

These species would all perish if they didn't seek their own survival at all times.

If you kill any of these organisms you are going against their own interests.

You are going against their will to live.

Stop referring to an animals will to live as reason to not take their lives.

We are all heterotrophs which means we consume living beings.



what is the difference between pain and suffering anyway?

[Questatement]

Quote by: Lostinlife Just because something is living has no bearing on wheather or they can be said to experience sensation, so first and foremost, you must ask the question, would this organism have NEEDED to develop this mechanism? As plants are immobile and rooted to the ground, it seems ludacris that they could benefit from any sort of "felt pain" without being able to flee from it and preserve their lives.

What about when plants send chemicals to their leaves that are unpleasant to the eater, even sending signals for neighboring plants to do the same before actually being nibbled upon?

[Questatement]

Quote by: DEEJ85 I wish vegetarians would stop referring to an animals will to live.

I wonder if you put it to a pig like this...

We can mate your parents because we want to eat you two years after your born or, if we can't eat you, we won't bother mating your parents. In addition, we will make your death as unexpected and painless as possible.

Now, little-piggy-to-possibly-be, which do you choose?

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Questatement What about when plants send chemicals to their leaves that are unpleasant to the eater, even sending signals for neighboring plants to do the same before actually being nibbled upon?

chemical stimulation and automatic response system. no sign of nervous system or awareness of other plants.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Questatement I wonder if you put it to a pig like this... We can mate your parents because we want to eat you two years after your born or, if we can't eat you, we won't bother mating your parents. In addition, we will make your death as unexpected and painless as possible. Now, little-piggy-to-possibly-be, which do you choose?

it would seem you defence can only be supported with fantasy. reality a bit to hard to cope with is it?

[inri]

[QUOTE=Diogenes;667015]S

No more than the lion that gorges on a antelope, or the house cat that brings home a mouse.

Interesting...you're comparing yourself to animals. Do you view your empathic ability and capacity for integral action to also be pretty much on the same level as theirs?....More and more I continue to be amazed that for some humans, this really is the case. You've mentioned before that you actively give of your time to help animals (hope I'm remembering this correctly) Therefore, I think perhaps you're simply refusing here to allow your emotional intellect to focus intently enough upon the plight of the chicken here....? Hey, a fellow human can hope!

Maybe you're different but in my experience with vegetarians ( and I do know a few ) they have very selective compassion...they will get on their soapbox over a cow or a deer but when it comes to snakes and mice and rats they have no problem disposing of them...

I agree...this is a demonstration of selective compassion...clearly NOT the mark of an individual who demonstrates across the board 'higher' ethics.

Environmentalists are just as bad...I know a few of them too...they love that soapbox, but not one of them uses a re-usable cloth to wipe their butt...they use toilet paper just like the rest of us. And gawd forbid they get rid of that SUV and trade it in for a bus ticket. #cough# hypocrites #hack#

If I'm unable to feed ALL of the starving humans of the world, does that mean I'm a hypocrite or somehow wrong for acknowledging their suffering where it exists and attempting to help in any small way that I possibly can?

You seem to have the attitude that someone cannot pursue a cause and change his behavior accordingly unless he's willing and able to fix everything that relates to this cause all at once. For many who embrace the idea of kindness and consideration towards ALL sentient beings, "doing the least amount of harm possible, while preserving self and quality of life" seems to be what they 'attempting' to do.

By the way do you happen to have any animal products in your home...or products that were used on an animal in any way...or any product that may contain any part of an animal...I'd be willing to bet that you do...even if you're not personally aware of it.

I make every conscious attempt possible not to...however, I've already established in this thread that I myself fall under the heading (like many other here) of one who lacks integrity...therefore I likely fall short of full out ethical vegans who 'actively' attempt in all situations to extend their ethics to all sentient beings.
I do not in any way consider myself to be one of the higher evolved humans I've spoken of.

I've never met a ' true ' environmentalist or a ' true ' vegetarian ...and I likely never will...they are all very selective in how far they're willing to commit to their soapbox.

I'll take it further and say, I've never met a 'perfect' person in terms of development of ethics and integrity to those ethics, however, some amazing individuals still do manage to stand apart from the pack.

[Diogenes]

Interesting...you're comparing yourself to animals.

We are animals. Microwave ovens and VCR's don't change that...they just give a false impression of superiority.

If I'm unable to feed ALL of the starving humans of the world, does that mean I'm a hypocrite or somehow wrong for acknowledging their suffering where it exists and attempting to help in any small way that I possibly can?

Sell everything that you own and use the money to feed the poor and then come back to me and ask that question.
Or, are the limits of your compassion determined first by your own needs?

Charity is determined by giving out of your own need not of your excess...it's easy to give and be compassionate when you take care of your own needs first.

[Lostinlife]

Quote by: Cruella Veganism and Vegetarian threads merged.

Uh... thanks... Anyway...

Response to RickSP:

Typically in a DEBATE your supposed to explain WHY your assertions are correct. I have argued that the holier-than-thou criticism of vegans is invalid, disprove that assertion.

If you maintain that ALL vegans have some sort of health problem then it seems to me that your either completely ignorant of the facts and/or prone to believe any of those tired old myths that still exist.

No one maintains that we require animal products to be healthy, not even MAINSTREAM nutritionists. The American Dietetic Association (ADA) for instance, is the United States' largest organization of food and nutrition professionals, with nearly 67,000 members, and they take a very clear stance on this matter:

Vegetarian Diets

(cont.)

[Lostinlife]

As for your "I evolved to be an omnivore argument", although we certainly are ABLE to eat animal products, our dental structure is unlike that of most carnivores in that we cannot rip uncooked flesh from bone. Moreover, unlike carnivores, we have a long intestine.

Then, facts of evolution do not settle matters of morality. One could argue that we have evolved to be a violent species. Does that make violence morally right? We have evolved opposable thumbs, that which make it perfect for closing someone's windpipe and suffocating them; does that mean we SHOULD? Humans have abstained from all sorts of acts and behaviors that used to be called "natural". Do you condone defecating in the street?

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: Diogenes Sell everything that you own and use the money to feed the poor and then come back to me and ask that question. Or, are the limits of your compassion determined first by your own needs? Charity is determined by giving out of your own need not of your excess...it's easy to give and be compassionate when you take care of your own needs first.

Good grief, Diogenes -- is this really you speaking?

Jesus would be so proud of you...

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: DEEJ85 We are all heterotrophs which means we consume living beings.

Speak for yourself: you may be a heterotroph but everybody here knows by now that I'm resolutely gay.

Thank you.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Lostinlife Uh... thanks... Anyway... Response to RickSP: Typically in a DEBATE your supposed to explain WHY your assertions are correct. I have argued that the holier-than-thou criticism of vegans is invalid, disprove that assertion.

Why should I disprove an assertion that you yourself so eloquently disprove yourself? Your own holier-than-thou demonstration was more than sufficient to make the point, even if that was not your intention. The self-righteous pomposity of the presentation was an eloquent argument against your case. What more need be said?

Quote by: Lostinlife If you maintain that ALL vegans have some sort of health problem then it seems to me that your either completely ignorant of the facts and/or prone to believe any of those tired old myths that still exist.

First of all your holier-than-thou mind-set took a sarcastic aside and went slightly crazy. I never suggested that ALL vegans are malnourished, though unquestionably some are. Again, you yourself make the best argument against your own position.

And while you may rather arrogantly deny it, malnutrition can indeed be an issue with a vegan diet particularly with children.

Vegan couple found guilty of killing malnourished baby

Malnourished Baby Sends Vegan Parents to Prison

Children 'harmed' by vegan diets

Parents of emaciated kids charged with abuse

I could go on with more examples, but by now you should get the idea.

[Questatement]

Quote by: SoylentGreen chemical stimulation and automatic response system. no sign of nervous system or awareness of other plants.

Automatic response system? Are you inventing terms now?