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Lava · Sep 24, 2004, 04:48 am

Hello.

I propose that people, and in fact whole societies, can unlearn. The first example is child discipline. It used to be well known that for a kid to grow up as a decent human being they needed discipline. Yet today discipline is not even permitted in our schools.

As a result of poor quality thinking being presented as of equal value to sound thinking, more and more people have come to believe in the poor thinking. This is how unlearning works, one presents a new interpretation of things that contradicts what is already established, and dresses it up with the trappings of a proper report - eg references, well qualified names, and a large or prestigious sponsoring corporation - and you have a report that folk will swallow, even if its complete horseshit. The reason is that most do not have the skills to distinguish duff science from genuine.

This is standard practice in the field of medical research. And to some extent it happens in most fields.

Lava

Compugasm · Sep 24, 2004, 07:20 am

Military school is an exception. But, I don't think public schools should teach discipline. But parents won't do it, so there you go.

Lava · Sep 27, 2004, 06:33 pm

Quiet in here, I though this might spark a bit of thought.

Lava

Iluvatar · Sep 28, 2004, 07:50 am

You appear to be starting with the assumption that the previous level of learning is always better. This is sometimes the case, as it seems to happen in medical studies, but not always.

For example, the issue of discpline in schools. The needs of society have changed. In times gone by, people all had relatively the same methods and leels of discipline. Today, however, many parents don't trust schools to handle the disciplining of thier child, and such is their right.

As for the concept of unlearning, it's not so much that, as relearning. You gave the example of medical science, which is more or less true. Every so often, there is a new set of studies done, which contradicts it's predecessors, but becomes popular wisdom. A perfect example of this is the Atkins diet.

Samildanach · Sep 28, 2004, 11:21 am

I hope so I have learned to smoke cigarettes when I drink. I hope to unlearn the association I have with alcohol so I can drink and not smoke along with it. seems to be working so far.

Lava · Sep 29, 2004, 05:46 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Iluvatar,
You appear to be starting with the assumption that the previous level of learning is always better.

not at all. For the most part we progress, new knowledge improves on old, but obviously there are cases where it is the other way round. I was talking specifically about deliberate unlearning, how people with knowledge can have that knowledge taken from them by the right bullshit. Have watched it happen, in the way I described.

Quote:

As for the concept of unlearning, it's not so much that, as relearning.

Both occur.

Quote:

You gave the example of medical science, which is more or less true. Every so often, there is a new set of studies done, which contradicts it's predecessors, but becomes popular wisdom. A perfect example of this is the Atkins diet.

medical 'science' is one of the big sources of unlearning. People are remarkably naive about medical research.

regards, Lava

Technosoul · Oct 12, 2004, 08:23 pm

Unlearning is in fact something that the brain will automatically do, the evidence of that is clear because we have really remembered only small percentage of what we learned in school. We learn it long enough to pass a test and then it vanishes like that dream you had last night.

Oddly most of the stuff we do remember had some kind of emotional impact. It made us mad or it made us feel high (like the first kiss - etc.) Something shocking makes a deeper impression on our memory then something relatively unstemulating. So memory is like having a drug addiction to a particular information that is exciting or stemulating to the mind is some way.

Also learning can be effected by repeating something over and over, a kind of brainwashing effect.

But think about it, it is possible to remember the punishment and totally forget why we were punished. So I do not see a strong reason to think that punishing a child will help him remember learn homework.

Plus we have layers of learning - we can learn knowledge and the information just stays in our mind for later useage. But also we can learn behavior, leaned behavior more or less takes on a mind of it's own as we do things automatically without thinking about it.

All the things I just posted are not 100 percent based on what I read or learned somewhere else. For it is possible to learn how to think things out as you go along instead of just repeating knowledge robotically.

Technosoul.

Mia · Oct 12, 2004, 08:56 pm

Yes, IMO, people can, and all too often do, unlearn.

Sep 24, 2004, 07:20 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Compugasm Son of X51 Location: San Diego Posts: 3,780	Military school is an exception. But, I don't think public schools should teach discipline. But parents won't do it, so there you go. Death to Videodrome! Long live The New flesh!

Sep 28, 2004, 07:50 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Iluvatar Sedimentary Rock Location: In front of a computer Posts: 18	You appear to be starting with the assumption that the previous level of learning is always better. This is sometimes the case, as it seems to happen in medical studies, but not always. For example, the issue of discpline in schools. The needs of society have changed. In times gone by, people all had relatively the same methods and leels of discipline. Today, however, many parents don't trust schools to handle the disciplining of thier child, and such is their right. As for the concept of unlearning, it's not so much that, as relearning. You gave the example of medical science, which is more or less true. Every so often, there is a new set of studies done, which contradicts it's predecessors, but becomes popular wisdom. A perfect example of this is the Atkins diet. [center]-=Iluvatar=- The truest sign of wisdom is the ability to seek it in your opponent.[/center]

Sep 28, 2004, 11:21 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	I hope so I have learned to smoke cigarettes when I drink. I hope to unlearn the association I have with alcohol so I can drink and not smoke along with it. seems to be working so far. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Oct 12, 2004, 08:56 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Yes, IMO, people can, and all too often do, unlearn. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Sep 24, 2004, 04:48 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	Hello. I propose that people, and in fact whole societies, can unlearn. The first example is child discipline. It used to be well known that for a kid to grow up as a decent human being they needed discipline. Yet today discipline is not even permitted in our schools. As a result of poor quality thinking being presented as of equal value to sound thinking, more and more people have come to believe in the poor thinking. This is how unlearning works, one presents a new interpretation of things that contradicts what is already established, and dresses it up with the trappings of a proper report - eg references, well qualified names, and a large or prestigious sponsoring corporation - and you have a report that folk will swallow, even if its complete horseshit. The reason is that most do not have the skills to distinguish duff science from genuine. This is standard practice in the field of medical research. And to some extent it happens in most fields. Lava

Sep 27, 2004, 06:33 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	Quiet in here, I though this might spark a bit of thought. Lava

Oct 12, 2004, 08:23 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,663	Unlearning is in fact something that the brain will automatically do, the evidence of that is clear because we have really remembered only small percentage of what we learned in school. We learn it long enough to pass a test and then it vanishes like that dream you had last night. Oddly most of the stuff we do remember had some kind of emotional impact. It made us mad or it made us feel high (like the first kiss - etc.) Something shocking makes a deeper impression on our memory then something relatively unstemulating. So memory is like having a drug addiction to a particular information that is exciting or stemulating to the mind is some way. Also learning can be effected by repeating something over and over, a kind of brainwashing effect. But think about it, it is possible to remember the punishment and totally forget why we were punished. So I do not see a strong reason to think that punishing a child will help him remember learn homework. Plus we have layers of learning - we can learn knowledge and the information just stays in our mind for later useage. But also we can learn behavior, leaned behavior more or less takes on a mind of it's own as we do things automatically without thinking about it. All the things I just posted are not 100 percent based on what I read or learned somewhere else. For it is possible to learn how to think things out as you go along instead of just repeating knowledge robotically. Technosoul.