Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Scribbler1 · Dec 2, 2003, 03:14 am

A lot of posts on this topic seem to be comparing the rights of the well off, the middle class and the poor. How about NO rights for ANYONE in the good ol' USA? If George Bush (or any president) didn't get any last night and was in a sufficiently pissed off mood, he could wipe out the US Constitution and with it EVERYTHING we consider rights which we take for granted. And don't think there isn't a mechanism in place to do that. It's been there for years, and what bothers me is that it could be used at any time, ESPECIALLY now, with the recent glut of terrorist acts.
That mechanism is FEMA! You know, the department we all see as the knights in shining armor when a disaster strikes, like a hurricane or flood. But theres a little something about FEMA which isn't widely known. They can suspend the Constitution, herd up people into internment camps and declare Martial Law, all with a single presidential act. And it's been right there under our noses since the 50's.
Just for a little taste of what I mean, here are a few links:

http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/archive/gover...t/fema7-97.html

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/fema.html

http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/gvcon6.html

All of the people who propose different forms of government in the US, and the ones who concentrate in class division had better enjoy their right to post these thoughts, because it could all be taken away and even the US Congress can't do a thing about it for at least 6 months.
As long as there's an agency of the government in place that can legally shut us up and lock us away at the slightest hint of a REAL threat to the establishment in Washington (not just forum posting, but along the lines of a REAL citizen backlash), no one should sleep too well around here.

Sweet dreams,

Impenitent · Dec 2, 2003, 10:01 am

we need gun control now!

protect the kids!

disarm the public!

threat to the establishment?

you must be kidding...

use your right to bear arms and load up while you can... the revolution is just around the corner... the big bad federal government is going to attack the citizens... better get your guns so the revolution can happen and we can kill the federal government and impose the socialist government... no wait, no government... no... just kill everyone! yeah that's the ticket...

"Finished with my woman 'cause she couldn't help me with my mind
people think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time
All day long I think of things but nothing seems to satisfy
Think I'll lose my mind if I don't find something to pacify

Can you help me occupy my brain?
Oh yeah

I need someone to show me the things in life that I can't find
I can't see the things that make true happiness, I must be blind

Make a joke and I will sigh and you will laugh and I will cry
Happiness I cannot feel and love to me us so unreal

And so as you hear these words telling you now of my state
I tell you to enjoy life I wish I could but it's too late" - Sabbath

darwinist · Dec 2, 2003, 11:57 am

In Britain, we used to have the 'right to silence'. But then they said 'We are going to take this right away'. But 'only' for the 'terrorist'. Today no-one has that right.

In the USA, they have the terrorist act. For holding 'only terrorist'. But now they hold people under it, that are not 'terrorist'.

If you do not fight for your 'Basic Rights', that they apply to 'everyone'. The you will have no rights left.

Up the revolt. Praise the lord and pass the ammo.

white rice · Dec 2, 2003, 10:00 pm

During the Civil War, Lincoln supended the right to due process. FDR rounded up Japanese Americans, took away their property and sent them to concentration camps.

The government has always had this power, but it's inconcievable that President would willingly shred the Constitution and become the next Hitler.

amabaie · Dec 2, 2003, 11:46 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
The government has always had this power, but it's inconcievable that President would willingly shred the Constitution and become the next Hitler. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Good point. It was also inconcievable that it would happen in Germany some 50 - 60 years ago, too.

This reminds me of an old Tom Lehrer song:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
We beat them in 1916 and they've hardly bothered us since then.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Or something like that.

darwinist · Dec 3, 2003, 03:09 am

Good Point...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

white rice · Dec 3, 2003, 04:05 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (amabaie,)

Good point. It was also inconcievable that it would happen in Germany some 50 - 60 years ago, too.
.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I think Americans have been indoctrinated to the point where no soldier in a voluntary army will fire upon groups of likeminded people with the same creed who are protesting for freedom. Sure, a madman can assume power, but he would break the Constitution and the trust the American people have placed upon him. Invading countries and killing foreigners is one thing. Killing your own people for the sake of basic rights is another.

Scribbler1 · Dec 3, 2003, 12:28 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (white rice,)
During the Civil War, Lincoln supended the right to due process. FDR rounded up Japanese Americans, took away their property and sent them to concentration camps.

The government has always had this power, but it's inconcievable that President would willingly shred the Constitution and become the next Hitler.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

That's actually out of context here, as FEMA was not around then. And the internment of Japanese in WW2 was essentially illegal, but since we were at war FDR would be supported by the majority of the country anyway. FEMA makes it perfectly legal, and all a president has to do is invoke what is already law now.
As for the second part of your quote, personally I don't find ANYTHING regarding the government inconcievable nowadays. Also, I'm not saying it WOULD happen, but if the administrations since Johnson, it stands to reason THEY didn't find it unnessecary to create it. They just need the proper time to implement it, that's all, because they KNOW they have only one shot at using the FEMA, as afterwards, IF the Constitution is restored, the people will scrap the present government in a heartbeat and replace it with who knows what. Or is very well COULD spark an armed conflict with the government.
I think they've wised up these days and what they'll do is slip it to us a little at a time, starting with the partiot act, for instance.

To Impenitent: Sarcasm aside, if you think bringing up FEMA is playing "Chicken Little" then ask yourself WHY they would enact it in the first place if it were never meant to be used?

Impenitent · Dec 3, 2003, 02:06 pm

S

"To Impenitent: Sarcasm aside, if you think bringing up FEMA is playing "Chicken Little" then ask yourself WHY they would enact it in the first place if it were never meant to be used?"

because they thought they might.... or they just wanted to keep everyone on their toes... an armed populace is a free populace...

cheesemage · Dec 3, 2003, 05:08 pm

If this happened, many wouldn't care, and that would be a sad thing indeed. As long as there were no radical changes to their lives, in their view it would be the same ol' same ol'.
I mean well off people who have a reliable income, will not mind for they have no reason to risk what they have worked for. Now if there were monumental amounts of poor people, with nothing to live for, only then a massive uprising seem likely.

Thus making such things Incredibly scary.
Too bad theres nothing anyone can do about it.

Scribbler1 · Dec 4, 2003, 02:21 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
S

"To Impenitent: Sarcasm aside, if you think bringing up FEMA is playing "Chicken Little" then ask yourself WHY they would enact it in the first place if it were never meant to be used?"

because they thought they might.... or they just wanted to keep everyone on their toes... an armed populace is a free populace...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I agree with that last line to a point. However, since everytime it's tried elsewhere in the world it looks like only innocents bear the brunt of anything approaching an armed revolution, I fear the same thing will happen here in that scenario. Like I said, if used, the act will be a one time only shot, and after that neither you nor I will be able to debate the point because whichever president ever uses it he will become the de facto king, and while we may still be an armed populace, we ain't nearly armed enough and after the national guard fires the first volley the rest of the people will drop their guns instantly. The people in the US get FAR to much credit for guts and intelligence IMO.

Scribbler1 · Dec 4, 2003, 02:32 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (cheesemage,)

Thus making such things Incredibly scary.
Too bad theres nothing anyone can do about it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I disagree. The problem is Americans have been conditioned to be lazy and hooked on the "quick fix". It may take our entire lifetimes but it took us over 200 years to get here nothing can be done NOW! However, if the sheep would simply get off their useless asses and (a) stop voting these criminals in office year after year and vote for independent candidates, and (b) the whole country MUST demand en masse that politicians be accountable for what they say and do, and be removed when they act against the public good. It's in the damn paper every week showing how these people vote, all the assholes have to do is read it, instead of the "in one ear and out the other" approach people use today. We need unity, common sense, and time to accomplish this.

Fat chance.

Impenitent · Dec 4, 2003, 03:05 am

S

"However, since everytime it's tried elsewhere in the world it looks like only innocents bear the brunt of anything approaching an armed revolution, I fear the same thing will happen here in that scenario"

there are no innocents and the rest of the world is not one quarter as well armed as we are... (possible exceptions israel and switzerland)

"we ain't nearly armed enough and after the national guard fires the first volley the rest of the people will drop their guns instantly. The people in the US get FAR to much credit for guts and intelligence IMO."

no they will not surrender as easily as you predict... and no, they do not get nearly enough credit for guts or intelligence IMO...

white rice · Dec 4, 2003, 05:20 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,)
That's actually out of context here, as FEMA was not around then. And the internment of Japanese in WW2 was essentially illegal, but since we were at war FDR would be supported by the majority of the country anyway. FEMA makes it perfectly legal, and all a president has to do is invoke what is already law now. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Despite a Federal Court ruling and an apology by Congress, Koremastu vs. the US hasn't been overturned by the Supreme Court. Until that happens, the President has that power in the time of war.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,)

As for the second part of your quote, personally I don't find ANYTHING regarding the government inconcievable nowadays. Also, I'm not saying it WOULD happen, but if the administrations since Johnson, it stands to reason THEY didn't find it unnessecary to create it. They just need the proper time to implement it, that's all, because they KNOW they have only one shot at using the FEMA, as afterwards, IF the Constitution is restored, the people will scrap the present government in a heartbeat and replace it with who knows what. Or is very well COULD spark an armed conflict with the government.
I think they've wised up these days and what they'll do is slip it to us a little at a time, starting with the partiot act, for instance.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

It could very well happen, but we would be as much to blame as them.

Who is 'they'? I can't follow you outside the context of conspiracy theories. If you mean politicians, they're one and the same, aren't they? THEY already control the government. It wouldn't benefit them that much. A peaceful transition of power has been our bragging rights to other countries and the greatest reason that the Constitution works. Let's say that we get nuked by terrorists. FEMA goes into effect, they scrap the Constitution, and the people will agree to anything to feel safe. Do you think every politician, soldier, and state government will line up to that President after his term is up?

Granted, in light of recent events, anything could happen. It's not a sign of complacency. I tend to give the people and government workers the benefit of the doubt that they will stand up for their rights as they have since the birth of this nation.

Scribbler1 · Dec 5, 2003, 02:25 am

Quote:

Quote by: white rice
[QUOTE=Scribbler1,

As for the second part of your quote, personally I don't find ANYTHING regarding the government inconcievable nowadays. Also, I'm not saying it WOULD happen, but if the administrations since Johnson, it stands to reason THEY didn't find it unnessecary to create it. They just need the proper time to implement it, that's all, because they KNOW they have only one shot at using the FEMA, as afterwards, IF the Constitution is restored, the people will scrap the present government in a heartbeat and replace it with who knows what. Or is very well COULD spark an armed conflict with the government.
I think they've wised up these days and what they'll do is slip it to us a little at a time, starting with the partiot act, for instance.

>>It could very well happen, but we would be as much to blame as them.<<

Not would be, we ARE to blame. I think we as a society have either become too busy with our own lives, or at least convinced ourselves we are too busy. We need someone to take care of us, and the politician with the best lie wins the nanny contest. And when they don't live up to their promises, as long as we are taken care of, it's "whaddya gonna do?"

>>Who is 'they'? I can't follow you outside the context of conspiracy theories. If you mean politicians, they're one and the same, aren't they? THEY already control the government. It wouldn't benefit them that much.<<

Hitler already controlled the German government too. What would HE want with the rest of the world? Maybe you're right, megalomania doesn't exist in any government.

>> A peaceful transition of power has been our bragging rights to other countries and the greatest reason that the Constitution works.<<

Consider though, that our bragging rights of a peaceful transition of power (I'm assuming you mean the US) is an utter illusion if there is NO transition of power, ever. Seems to me with every election we get a different label on the same can. Clinton ran as a "new democrat", remember? Funny thing though, the congress was still filled with OLD democrats, and they didn't go anywhere. Bush runs as a "compassionate conservative" implying the rest of them were not so compassionate? But they're still there. The Congress might come right from an episode of "Futurama" where they are nothing more than 300 year-old heads.
And as far as the Constitution actually "working", I still remember a longtime ago, some TV personality read the preamble to randomly picked people on a city street. Nost didn't recognize it and some thought it was some Communist document! With the exception of most of the members here, when most americans see something with their own eyes, and are told something contrary by a "person of influence" they usually go with what they're told.

>> Let's say that we get nuked by terrorists. FEMA goes into effect, they scrap the Constitution, and the people will agree to anything to feel safe. Do you think every politician, soldier, and state government will line up to that President after his term is up?<<

Not EVERY, but most will. The rest will be, like always, branded as nuts and troublemakers. As long as they are fed the right lies the right way, they WILL line up to be hooked like fish, and the bait will be either hatred of others, or their own safety.

>>Granted, in light of recent events, anything could happen. It's not a sign of complacency. I tend to give the people and government workers the benefit of the doubt that they will stand up for their rights as they have since the birth of this nation.[/quote]

Please define "government workers", as if you mean the bulk of the regular workers whose employer just happens to be the government, they are just like us. When I say "the government", I mean a MUCH smaller group.

white rice · Dec 5, 2003, 05:14 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,)

Not would be, we ARE to blame. I think we as a society have either become too busy with our own lives, or at least convinced ourselves we are too busy. We need someone to take care of us, and the politician with the best lie wins the nanny contest. And when they don't live up to their promises, as long as we are taken care of, it's "whaddya gonna do?"

Hitler already controlled the German government too. What would HE want with the rest of the world? Maybe you're right, megalomania doesn't exist in any government.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Don't get me wrong, megalomania exists in human nature. It's why checks and balances are necessary for any government. I think we agree that the final check has to come from the public. In WW2 Germany and Japan, the majority were led to believe that they were the superior race and backed their charismatic leaders accordingly. What you're proposing is a drastic change in the way the American people live their lives against their will.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,)

Consider though, that our bragging rights of a peaceful transition of power (I'm assuming you mean the US) is an utter illusion if there is NO transition of power, ever. Seems to me with every election we get a different label on the same can. Clinton ran as a "new democrat", remember? Funny thing though, the congress was still filled with OLD democrats, and they didn't go anywhere. Bush runs as a "compassionate conservative" implying the rest of them were not so compassionate? But they're still there. The Congress might come right from an episode of "Futurama" where they are nothing more than 300 year-old heads.
And as far as the Constitution actually "working", I still remember a longtime ago, some TV personality read the preamble to randomly picked people on a city street. Nost didn't recognize it and some thought it was some Communist document! With the exception of most of the members here, when most americans see something with their own eyes, and are told something contrary by a "person of influence" they usually go with what they're told.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I agree. I think it's that sentiment that "they're all the same" that makes some Americans less inclined to vote...the silent majority. Others shift responsibility to others who shift responsibility to others. Take Bush and Gore, would things have been different? Who really knows, but I'd like to believe that it would have been. But realistically, what government doesn't have leaders who are in the elite? Something to stew on right there....

In some respects, I think what has happened is that our country has become too large for the average politician to be known. It's why amassing warchests and political advertising plays a key role in determining the victor. Both factors require contributions from rich special interest groups and a well organized political machine to carry them out. Because of that, it takes something large like a bad economy to wake the average swing voter up. Is losing your way of life and ideals worse than a bad economy? I certainly hope so.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,)

Not EVERY, but most will. The rest will be, like always, branded as nuts and troublemakers. As long as they are fed the right lies the right way, they WILL line up to be hooked like fish, and the bait will be either hatred of others, or their own safety. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Do you think 9/11 has helped that or has it made people wiser to how succeptible they are? The growing popularity of the Fox News network kind of scares me. I'll steal from the Dalai Lama- as long as there potential for the human mind to do nasty things, there's just as much potential for them to do equally good things. I don't know. Has it gone to the point where it's hard to find people who will put themselves up to do the right thing?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,)

Please define "government workers", as if you mean the bulk of the regular workers whose employer just happens to be the government, they are just like us. When I say "the government", I mean a MUCH smaller group.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Soldiers, local politicians, policemen, and the people who run regional bases. The same soldiers featured on the news who just want to return to their families. The same soldiers that signed up to defend their country.

I see where you're coming from. The fears of Orwell are always current. Facism whether corporate or secular can be a few steps away. Jefferson said something to the lines of a little revolution now and then is good thing.

Americans act like cows sometimes, but one thing they know is that they're always right and they like a good fight to show that they're the best. New Yorkers after 9/11 and the blackout didn't riot like animals and tear some group apart. They acted the best they could in light of a terrible situation.

castille · Dec 5, 2003, 09:10 am

They made a game about FEMA, its called Deus Ex.

Basically FEMA takes control of the world with the US government, releases a deadly virus. Then the Illuminati is betrayed by Majestic 12 the evil government corporation run by the UN, and finally China remains the only country which survives the deadly disease and then the Triads take over or something.

Interesting thing is there are 3 endings, left to you:

-Destroy global communications to plunge the world back into a system of medieval villages, although without warlords (perhaps Communism?)

-Rule the world with the Illuminati (Capitalism?)

-Let the robots rule the world (er....I dont know what this is called).

Basically the "Communist" solution tries to recreate a better world by bringing it back to the medieval era, the "Capitalist" solution seeks to allow a group of secret agents to make secret decisions or something, and the "Robot" solution lets the world by ruled by pure logic.

If you brush aside the ridiclous concepts, its quite an interesting view. However I still think they went overboard....the Illuminati?

G. Adams · Dec 5, 2003, 09:47 am

The Illuminati, and even Majestic 12, are real organisations, though whether they are important in the world is doubtful. But then its certainly possible, other organisations like it have considerable power. The Skull and Bones group at Yale has had three US presidents, GWB, his dad and McKinley, as well as numerous important positions in government. Famous members include John Kerry, the Harriman Family, Rockefella. Then there is the San Fransisco Bohemia group, with Kissinger among its members. These organisations are just glorified mens clubs, but the relationships they foster between the members can be damaging for democracy, as the rich families of the US all give money to members of their group.

And the third option is basically Plato's republic, with the "philosopher king" being the helios operating system.

darwinist · Dec 9, 2003, 11:31 am

1984

Big Brother

Anyone???

**Pooeypants** · Dec 9, 2003, 02:22 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
They made a game about FEMA, its called Deus Ex.

Basically FEMA takes control of the world with the US government, releases a deadly virus. Then the Illuminati is betrayed by Majestic 12 the evil government corporation run by the UN, and finally China remains the only country which survives the deadly disease and then the Triads take over or something.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Actually MJ12 broke off from Illuminati way before the virus release. And the Illuminati had nicked the power off The Knights Templer (Banker in control of world economics). The Illuminati was very much on a low until JC Denton came along.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

Interesting thing is there are 3 endings, left to you:

-Destroy global communications to plunge the world back into a system of medieval villages, although without warlords (perhaps Communism?)
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Tracer Tong wanted smaller communities with governments at a size comprehension to its citizens.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

-Rule the world with the Illuminati (Capitalism?)
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Pretty much, in other words no chance.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

-Let the robots rule the world (er....I dont know what this is called).
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
No, it was one A.I., built and programmed to govern humanity, and through JC Denton it would gain insight perhaps into the psychology etc. hmm, need to look it up again.

Dec 2, 2003, 03:14 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	A lot of posts on this topic seem to be comparing the rights of the well off, the middle class and the poor. How about NO rights for ANYONE in the good ol' USA? If George Bush (or any president) didn't get any last night and was in a sufficiently pissed off mood, he could wipe out the US Constitution and with it EVERYTHING we consider rights which we take for granted. And don't think there isn't a mechanism in place to do that. It's been there for years, and what bothers me is that it could be used at any time, ESPECIALLY now, with the recent glut of terrorist acts. That mechanism is FEMA! You know, the department we all see as the knights in shining armor when a disaster strikes, like a hurricane or flood. But theres a little something about FEMA which isn't widely known. They can suspend the Constitution, herd up people into internment camps and declare Martial Law, all with a single presidential act. And it's been right there under our noses since the 50's. Just for a little taste of what I mean, here are a few links: http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/archive/gover...t/fema7-97.html http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/fema.html http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/gvcon6.html All of the people who propose different forms of government in the US, and the ones who concentrate in class division had better enjoy their right to post these thoughts, because it could all be taken away and even the US Congress can't do a thing about it for at least 6 months. As long as there's an agency of the government in place that can legally shut us up and lock us away at the slightest hint of a REAL threat to the establishment in Washington (not just forum posting, but along the lines of a REAL citizen backlash), no one should sleep too well around here. Sweet dreams, Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Dec 2, 2003, 10:01 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	we need gun control now! protect the kids! disarm the public! threat to the establishment? you must be kidding... use your right to bear arms and load up while you can... the revolution is just around the corner... the big bad federal government is going to attack the citizens... better get your guns so the revolution can happen and we can kill the federal government and impose the socialist government... no wait, no government... no... just kill everyone! yeah that's the ticket... "Finished with my woman 'cause she couldn't help me with my mind people think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time All day long I think of things but nothing seems to satisfy Think I'll lose my mind if I don't find something to pacify Can you help me occupy my brain? Oh yeah I need someone to show me the things in life that I can't find I can't see the things that make true happiness, I must be blind Make a joke and I will sigh and you will laugh and I will cry Happiness I cannot feel and love to me us so unreal And so as you hear these words telling you now of my state I tell you to enjoy life I wish I could but it's too late" - Sabbath "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Dec 2, 2003, 11:57 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	In Britain, we used to have the 'right to silence'. But then they said 'We are going to take this right away'. But 'only' for the 'terrorist'. Today no-one has that right. In the USA, they have the terrorist act. For holding 'only terrorist'. But now they hold people under it, that are not 'terrorist'. If you do not fight for your 'Basic Rights', that they apply to 'everyone'. The you will have no rights left. Up the revolt. Praise the lord and pass the ammo. What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Dec 2, 2003, 10:00 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	During the Civil War, Lincoln supended the right to due process. FDR rounded up Japanese Americans, took away their property and sent them to concentration camps. The government has always had this power, but it's inconcievable that President would willingly shred the Constitution and become the next Hitler. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dec 2, 2003, 11:46 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
amabaie Sedimentary Rock Posts: 2	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by The government has always had this power, but it's inconcievable that President would willingly shred the Constitution and become the next Hitler. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Good point. It was also inconcievable that it would happen in Germany some 50 - 60 years ago, too. This reminds me of an old Tom Lehrer song: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by We beat them in 1916 and they've hardly bothered us since then.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Or something like that. David Leonhardt Happiness stuff Personal growth stuff Motivation stuff

Dec 3, 2003, 03:09 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	Good Point... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Dec 3, 2003, 04:05 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (amabaie,) Good point. It was also inconcievable that it would happen in Germany some 50 - 60 years ago, too. .<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I think Americans have been indoctrinated to the point where no soldier in a voluntary army will fire upon groups of likeminded people with the same creed who are protesting for freedom. Sure, a madman can assume power, but he would break the Constitution and the trust the American people have placed upon him. Invading countries and killing foreigners is one thing. Killing your own people for the sake of basic rights is another. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dec 3, 2003, 12:28 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (white rice,) During the Civil War, Lincoln supended the right to due process. FDR rounded up Japanese Americans, took away their property and sent them to concentration camps. The government has always had this power, but it's inconcievable that President would willingly shred the Constitution and become the next Hitler.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> That's actually out of context here, as FEMA was not around then. And the internment of Japanese in WW2 was essentially illegal, but since we were at war FDR would be supported by the majority of the country anyway. FEMA makes it perfectly legal, and all a president has to do is invoke what is already law now. As for the second part of your quote, personally I don't find ANYTHING regarding the government inconcievable nowadays. Also, I'm not saying it WOULD happen, but if the administrations since Johnson, it stands to reason THEY didn't find it unnessecary to create it. They just need the proper time to implement it, that's all, because they KNOW they have only one shot at using the FEMA, as afterwards, IF the Constitution is restored, the people will scrap the present government in a heartbeat and replace it with who knows what. Or is very well COULD spark an armed conflict with the government. I think they've wised up these days and what they'll do is slip it to us a little at a time, starting with the partiot act, for instance. To Impenitent: Sarcasm aside, if you think bringing up FEMA is playing "Chicken Little" then ask yourself WHY they would enact it in the first place if it were never meant to be used? Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Dec 3, 2003, 02:06 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	S "To Impenitent: Sarcasm aside, if you think bringing up FEMA is playing "Chicken Little" then ask yourself WHY they would enact it in the first place if it were never meant to be used?" because they thought they might.... or they just wanted to keep everyone on their toes... an armed populace is a free populace... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Dec 3, 2003, 05:08 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
cheesemage Molten Ash Posts: 57	If this happened, many wouldn't care, and that would be a sad thing indeed. As long as there were no radical changes to their lives, in their view it would be the same ol' same ol'. I mean well off people who have a reliable income, will not mind for they have no reason to risk what they have worked for. Now if there were monumental amounts of poor people, with nothing to live for, only then a massive uprising seem likely. Thus making such things Incredibly scary. Too bad theres nothing anyone can do about it.

Dec 4, 2003, 02:21 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) S "To Impenitent: Sarcasm aside, if you think bringing up FEMA is playing "Chicken Little" then ask yourself WHY they would enact it in the first place if it were never meant to be used?" because they thought they might.... or they just wanted to keep everyone on their toes... an armed populace is a free populace...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I agree with that last line to a point. However, since everytime it's tried elsewhere in the world it looks like only innocents bear the brunt of anything approaching an armed revolution, I fear the same thing will happen here in that scenario. Like I said, if used, the act will be a one time only shot, and after that neither you nor I will be able to debate the point because whichever president ever uses it he will become the de facto king, and while we may still be an armed populace, we ain't nearly armed enough and after the national guard fires the first volley the rest of the people will drop their guns instantly. The people in the US get FAR to much credit for guts and intelligence IMO. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Dec 4, 2003, 02:32 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (cheesemage,) Thus making such things Incredibly scary. Too bad theres nothing anyone can do about it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I disagree. The problem is Americans have been conditioned to be lazy and hooked on the "quick fix". It may take our entire lifetimes but it took us over 200 years to get here nothing can be done NOW! However, if the sheep would simply get off their useless asses and (a) stop voting these criminals in office year after year and vote for independent candidates, and (b) the whole country MUST demand en masse that politicians be accountable for what they say and do, and be removed when they act against the public good. It's in the damn paper every week showing how these people vote, all the assholes have to do is read it, instead of the "in one ear and out the other" approach people use today. We need unity, common sense, and time to accomplish this. Fat chance. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Dec 4, 2003, 03:05 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	S "However, since everytime it's tried elsewhere in the world it looks like only innocents bear the brunt of anything approaching an armed revolution, I fear the same thing will happen here in that scenario" there are no innocents and the rest of the world is not one quarter as well armed as we are... (possible exceptions israel and switzerland) "we ain't nearly armed enough and after the national guard fires the first volley the rest of the people will drop their guns instantly. The people in the US get FAR to much credit for guts and intelligence IMO." no they will not surrender as easily as you predict... and no, they do not get nearly enough credit for guts or intelligence IMO... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Dec 4, 2003, 05:20 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,) That's actually out of context here, as FEMA was not around then. And the internment of Japanese in WW2 was essentially illegal, but since we were at war FDR would be supported by the majority of the country anyway. FEMA makes it perfectly legal, and all a president has to do is invoke what is already law now. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Despite a Federal Court ruling and an apology by Congress, Koremastu vs. the US hasn't been overturned by the Supreme Court. Until that happens, the President has that power in the time of war. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,) As for the second part of your quote, personally I don't find ANYTHING regarding the government inconcievable nowadays. Also, I'm not saying it WOULD happen, but if the administrations since Johnson, it stands to reason THEY didn't find it unnessecary to create it. They just need the proper time to implement it, that's all, because they KNOW they have only one shot at using the FEMA, as afterwards, IF the Constitution is restored, the people will scrap the present government in a heartbeat and replace it with who knows what. Or is very well COULD spark an armed conflict with the government. I think they've wised up these days and what they'll do is slip it to us a little at a time, starting with the partiot act, for instance. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> It could very well happen, but we would be as much to blame as them. Who is 'they'? I can't follow you outside the context of conspiracy theories. If you mean politicians, they're one and the same, aren't they? THEY already control the government. It wouldn't benefit them that much. A peaceful transition of power has been our bragging rights to other countries and the greatest reason that the Constitution works. Let's say that we get nuked by terrorists. FEMA goes into effect, they scrap the Constitution, and the people will agree to anything to feel safe. Do you think every politician, soldier, and state government will line up to that President after his term is up? Granted, in light of recent events, anything could happen. It's not a sign of complacency. I tend to give the people and government workers the benefit of the doubt that they will stand up for their rights as they have since the birth of this nation. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dec 5, 2003, 05:14 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,) Not would be, we ARE to blame. I think we as a society have either become too busy with our own lives, or at least convinced ourselves we are too busy. We need someone to take care of us, and the politician with the best lie wins the nanny contest. And when they don't live up to their promises, as long as we are taken care of, it's "whaddya gonna do?" Hitler already controlled the German government too. What would HE want with the rest of the world? Maybe you're right, megalomania doesn't exist in any government. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Don't get me wrong, megalomania exists in human nature. It's why checks and balances are necessary for any government. I think we agree that the final check has to come from the public. In WW2 Germany and Japan, the majority were led to believe that they were the superior race and backed their charismatic leaders accordingly. What you're proposing is a drastic change in the way the American people live their lives against their will. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,) Consider though, that our bragging rights of a peaceful transition of power (I'm assuming you mean the US) is an utter illusion if there is NO transition of power, ever. Seems to me with every election we get a different label on the same can. Clinton ran as a "new democrat", remember? Funny thing though, the congress was still filled with OLD democrats, and they didn't go anywhere. Bush runs as a "compassionate conservative" implying the rest of them were not so compassionate? But they're still there. The Congress might come right from an episode of "Futurama" where they are nothing more than 300 year-old heads. And as far as the Constitution actually "working", I still remember a longtime ago, some TV personality read the preamble to randomly picked people on a city street. Nost didn't recognize it and some thought it was some Communist document! With the exception of most of the members here, when most americans see something with their own eyes, and are told something contrary by a "person of influence" they usually go with what they're told. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I agree. I think it's that sentiment that "they're all the same" that makes some Americans less inclined to vote...the silent majority. Others shift responsibility to others who shift responsibility to others. Take Bush and Gore, would things have been different? Who really knows, but I'd like to believe that it would have been. But realistically, what government doesn't have leaders who are in the elite? Something to stew on right there.... In some respects, I think what has happened is that our country has become too large for the average politician to be known. It's why amassing warchests and political advertising plays a key role in determining the victor. Both factors require contributions from rich special interest groups and a well organized political machine to carry them out. Because of that, it takes something large like a bad economy to wake the average swing voter up. Is losing your way of life and ideals worse than a bad economy? I certainly hope so. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,) Not EVERY, but most will. The rest will be, like always, branded as nuts and troublemakers. As long as they are fed the right lies the right way, they WILL line up to be hooked like fish, and the bait will be either hatred of others, or their own safety. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Do you think 9/11 has helped that or has it made people wiser to how succeptible they are? The growing popularity of the Fox News network kind of scares me. I'll steal from the Dalai Lama- as long as there potential for the human mind to do nasty things, there's just as much potential for them to do equally good things. I don't know. Has it gone to the point where it's hard to find people who will put themselves up to do the right thing? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,) Please define "government workers", as if you mean the bulk of the regular workers whose employer just happens to be the government, they are just like us. When I say "the government", I mean a MUCH smaller group.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Soldiers, local politicians, policemen, and the people who run regional bases. The same soldiers featured on the news who just want to return to their families. The same soldiers that signed up to defend their country. I see where you're coming from. The fears of Orwell are always current. Facism whether corporate or secular can be a few steps away. Jefferson said something to the lines of a little revolution now and then is good thing. Americans act like cows sometimes, but one thing they know is that they're always right and they like a good fight to show that they're the best. New Yorkers after 9/11 and the blackout didn't riot like animals and tear some group apart. They acted the best they could in light of a terrible situation. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dec 5, 2003, 09:10 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	They made a game about FEMA, its called Deus Ex. Basically FEMA takes control of the world with the US government, releases a deadly virus. Then the Illuminati is betrayed by Majestic 12 the evil government corporation run by the UN, and finally China remains the only country which survives the deadly disease and then the Triads take over or something. Interesting thing is there are 3 endings, left to you: -Destroy global communications to plunge the world back into a system of medieval villages, although without warlords (perhaps Communism?) -Rule the world with the Illuminati (Capitalism?) -Let the robots rule the world (er....I dont know what this is called). Basically the "Communist" solution tries to recreate a better world by bringing it back to the medieval era, the "Capitalist" solution seeks to allow a group of secret agents to make secret decisions or something, and the "Robot" solution lets the world by ruled by pure logic. If you brush aside the ridiclous concepts, its quite an interesting view. However I still think they went overboard....the Illuminati? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Dec 5, 2003, 09:47 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	The Illuminati, and even Majestic 12, are real organisations, though whether they are important in the world is doubtful. But then its certainly possible, other organisations like it have considerable power. The Skull and Bones group at Yale has had three US presidents, GWB, his dad and McKinley, as well as numerous important positions in government. Famous members include John Kerry, the Harriman Family, Rockefella. Then there is the San Fransisco Bohemia group, with Kissinger among its members. These organisations are just glorified mens clubs, but the relationships they foster between the members can be damaging for democracy, as the rich families of the US all give money to members of their group. And the third option is basically Plato's republic, with the "philosopher king" being the helios operating system. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Dec 9, 2003, 11:31 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	1984 Big Brother Anyone??? What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Dec 9, 2003, 02:22 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,468	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) They made a game about FEMA, its called Deus Ex. Basically FEMA takes control of the world with the US government, releases a deadly virus. Then the Illuminati is betrayed by Majestic 12 the evil government corporation run by the UN, and finally China remains the only country which survives the deadly disease and then the Triads take over or something. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually MJ12 broke off from Illuminati way before the virus release. And the Illuminati had nicked the power off The Knights Templer (Banker in control of world economics). The Illuminati was very much on a low until JC Denton came along. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Interesting thing is there are 3 endings, left to you: -Destroy global communications to plunge the world back into a system of medieval villages, although without warlords (perhaps Communism?) <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Tracer Tong wanted smaller communities with governments at a size comprehension to its citizens. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by -Rule the world with the Illuminati (Capitalism?) <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Pretty much, in other words no chance. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by -Let the robots rule the world (er....I dont know what this is called). <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No, it was one A.I., built and programmed to govern humanity, and through JC Denton it would gain insight perhaps into the psychology etc. hmm, need to look it up again. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before