Racial equality?

[castille]

They have this stuff in the US about having to hire a certain number of black people. In Australia we have this stuff about giving Aborigines extra welfare or giving them easier access to college.

But what about the Indians and Chinese? I mean I agree they're both hard working people (apart from the central gangs), but still, isn't it racist to say "Black people need special benefits, and Asians don't"?

I mean I can see a lot of people, even leftists, hate Chinese and Indians, but I'm still surprised such a thing happens in the US.

Even the Jews, despite nobody liking them (especially Hitler), have managed to carve up their own little prosperous communities in the US and Europe.


Curious isn't it? Its not unexpected; I've heard of lots of anti-Chinese riots in Indonesia and countries where Chinese immigrants have succeeded. I guess in this world, people will always remain jealous of success.

I've been told not to establish deep roots overseas, since there will be a backlash from the predominantly white countries soon against Asian/Indian people. Hell I figure, keep as much stuff in your old country, so when the US/Europe starts staging race riots, you can move quickly.


Theres an old quote running through Chinese business communities..."Make money overseas if you wish, but always keep your bag half-packed, and keep your money in China."

[darwinist]

You have touched upon one of the biggest problems with Equality and discrimination.

If everyone is Equal, then there is no discrimination. The problem with the current system, is that some people are more equal than others.

The government is partly at fault here. Lets take an example. If a company needs to hire 5 coloured people. Lets also assume, for now. That no coloured people are intreted in working for this company. Now at any point in the future. If a coloured person applies for work. The company will have to give him the job, regardless of who is the best quailifed. To make up their quote. Making for Positve-Discrimination. If there can be such a thing.

In the Netherlands, you have a 3 class society. The refugee, who is entitled to everything. The Dutch person, who is entitled to some things and the other Europenas. Who have their rights trampled on.

Equal has to mean Equal. Not sepreate but Equal, not different but Equal.

That is what the blacklash will be against. I fore see terror style attacks. Coming next year, if things do not improve.

[Impenitent]

there is no such thing as equal

"I do not like him." ‑ Why? ‑ "I am not equal to him." ‑ Has any human being ever answered that way? ... Nietzsche BGE 185

[G. Adams]

Yeah it would cost a little to set up the bureacracy needed to do this but, instead have these benefits set up on a case by case method. Instead of simply lumping all aboriginees together and saying they need help while the asians don't, people who want help should come forward to whatever office it is called and say why they need help. The people working there could be trained advisors in how to get people to work for themselves, so as well as increasing benefits to families who need it, they can also shows ways to help themselves.

[white rice]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
They have this stuff in the US about having to hire a certain number of black people. In Australia we have this stuff about giving Aborigines extra welfare or giving them easier access to college.

But what about the Indians and Chinese? I mean I agree they're both hard working people (apart from the central gangs), but still, isn't it racist to say "Black people need special benefits, and Asians don't"?

I mean I can see a lot of people, even leftists, hate Chinese and Indians, but I'm still surprised such a thing happens in the US.

Even the Jews, despite nobody liking them (especially Hitler), have managed to carve up their own little prosperous communities in the US and Europe.


Curious isn't it? Its not unexpected; I've heard of lots of anti-Chinese riots in Indonesia and countries where Chinese immigrants have succeeded. I guess in this world, people will always remain jealous of success.

I've been told not to establish deep roots overseas, since there will be a backlash from the predominantly white countries soon against Asian/Indian people. Hell I figure, keep as much stuff in your old country, so when the US/Europe starts staging race riots, you can move quickly.


Theres an old quote running through Chinese business communities..."Make money overseas if you wish, but always keep your bag half-packed, and keep your money in China."<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

There's an underlying tension between the Indonesian Chinese and the ethnic Indonesians. For whatever reasons, the Chinese people are culturally inclined towards business and over time have established a wealthy minority in countries like Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand and the Philipines. So the racial minority has held a greater portion of the wealth compared to the ethnic majority (Singapore is small and wealthy it doesn't count) and racial tensions grow. Because they control so much power as the elite, they have the most to benefit from free trade agreements that generate cheap labor for multinationals. With all the money pouring in from mutlinationals, and the common people have nothing to show for it, that will raise the tensions up a notch. The irony is that the riots usually target poor to middle class Chinese workers who are in the same position as the ethnic majority.

The Eastern Orthodox Jews faced the same thing when they were expelled in Russia.

Jews in general, face the same perception, but their history is more entrenched and embittered.

As for the Aborigines in Australia, didn't they have their land taken from them? I would guess that it's the government's effort to correct the wrongs of the aggrieved in their past. Which similar to what Affirmative Action in the US is trying to do in principle...

[darwinist]

I agree. People will never be equal. One will always have more:- talent, education, ambition, experience, etc...

But i think it is possible to treat people equal.

Example:-

Two people apply for the same job.

One person has experience the other has not.

If you want to pay the big bucks. You can hire the guy with experience.

If you want to save a few bucks. You can hire the other guy.

Economic pressure. Will equalize the factors for you.

Ok. maybe not the best example. Of equality.

[greendeath]

This is how it goes in modern society of North America.

blacks > asians > all other minorities > whites.

Whites are becoming a minority...correction...whites ARE a minority.

What is happening is reverse-racism. Black people arguing that they were only arrested, not because they have an 8-ball of coke on them, but because of their skin color.

Come on people, racism is in the past, and if people continue to dwell on the past the world is simply going to get angrier and angrier...moreso than it already is.

[castille]

I don't really see how today's generation of blacks/aborigines/immigrants/whoever are disadvantaged.


I'll take black people as an example (as most people here are Americans). So 200 years ago they were brought to the US as slaves, and they only got their rights 40 years ago.

Ok, so that happened. But can someone in here tell me a SINGLE black person who used to be a slave (and is alive)? I believe most black slaves are long dead, possibly 100 years ago or so? (If not than I must be in Saudi Arabia!)

So why the need for special government programmes? Isn't that saying to them, "Please, don't try hard at school, because even if you are lazy and stupid, you'll still get a job."

So basically, we are in fact encouraging black people to be lazy/stupid by rewarding them for doing that!

[G. Adams]

No, what its saying is 'there is still underlying racism in the system, as white bosses will tend to promote white workers. White parents being richer than black parents will sent them to better schools, meaning black children get a poorer education, and thus getting poorer jobs. The cycle will continue.'

By setting affirmative action quotas we can bring black people into these positions, so there children can get better education, then better jobs, breaking the cycle. As well as that black people will then be given people to ideolise, like Colin Powel, and don't feel the system is biased against them.

[white rice]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
I don't really see how today's generation of blacks/aborigines/immigrants/whoever are disadvantaged.


I'll take black people as an example (as most people here are Americans). So 200 years ago they were brought to the US as slaves, and they only got their rights 40 years ago.

Ok, so that happened. But can someone in here tell me a SINGLE black person who used to be a slave (and is alive)? I believe most black slaves are long dead, possibly 100 years ago or so? (If not than I must be in Saudi Arabia!)

So why the need for special government programmes? Isn't that saying to them, "Please, don't try hard at school, because even if you are lazy and stupid, you'll still get a job."

So basically, we are in fact encouraging black people to be lazy/stupid by rewarding them for doing that!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

It ties in with property rights and inheritence. Slavery in the US was cross-generational. The children of slaves became slaves and the children of the masters became masters. All that work by slaves accrued into the slave owning family's coffers. There was no form of compensation for the slaves after they were freed. Most were forced into indentured servantude because they had no land and money after their 'freedom'. The Northerners, while they didn't own slaves, were just as racist.

The system began unfair and ended unfairly. Add that to the Jim Crow and Segregation laws that denied Blacks equal opportunity, how can you claim that all they had to do was work hard. They did work hard with the shit jobs, but not by choice and with no end in sight.

Personally I don't think Affirmative Action is the right way to solve things, but you can't eliminate it and pretend that the problem isn't there. Racism in the past and present means that there must to be another way in the middle.

[RebelWithanAK]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
So basically, we are in fact encouraging black people to be lazy/stupid by rewarding them for doing that!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Your outburst is beyond ill-conceived and is bordering on outright racism. We've already gone over this: If you're poor, if you're parents were poor, if you don't have enough capital to get a decent education/start a business/save money, then you're going to stay poor.

The number of poor people in this country is increasing, not decreasing. Affirmative Action is a poorly conceived patch on a much deeper-seated problem: Municipalities, counties, states that have chronic tax problems and cannot fund libraries, public education, or job training. This is not caused by the poor - an answer that is plain to see - as it hurts them the most. This is caused by those with money. And those with money have always been those with money because the first thing you do when you get money is make sure you will always have money.

Who do you think keeps voting for tax cuts? Who do you think keeps sending those lobbyists? You want to know who is fucking it up for everybody, making it hard for those who can't afford Kaplan training, making it hard for small businesses to get running - it certainly isn't the poor.

[darwinist]

[/quote]No, what its saying is 'there is still underlying racism in the system, as white bosses will tend to promote white workers. White parents being richer than black parents will sent them to better schools, meaning black children get a poorer education, and thus getting poorer jobs. The cycle will continue.'

By setting affirmative action quotas we can bring black people into these positions, so there children can get better education, then better jobs, breaking the cycle. As well as that black people will then be given people to ideolise, like Colin Powel, and don't [quote]

Although i agree with the cycle you mentioned. It is still unfair. Discrimination of any kind. Is not going to help. In this case Postive Discrimination for black people. So who is going to break the cycle for the poor white people now? Now there being discriminated against. In the above example. If two poor people apply for the same job. And the company has to give that job to the poor black man, because he is black. That is discrimination.

Like any rule or system. You have to enforce 'Equality'. Equal treatment. If everyone is treated equal under the same system. Then enforced. That is a better solution. Okay it is harder to do then the current system. But the current system is only going to add more to rasict discrimination. Not less.

[nature of reality]

"As well as that black people will then be given people to ideolise, like Colin Powel, and don't feel the system is biased against them. "

If you would know anything of the views of mr. powell, you would know he detests affirmative action, as due all africans of ability as it casts a shadow on every one of their achievements.


"We've already gone over this: If you're poor, if you're parents were poor, if you don't have enough capital to get a decent education/start a business/save money, then you're going to stay poor."

*cough* edision, carnagie, etc,etc, etc,. *cough*


"The number of poor people in this country is increasing, not decreasing"


standard of living is increasing. The amount of poor people as compared to the rest of the population is decreasing. back up your cannabalistic lies.


"Who do you think keeps voting for tax cuts?"

People who believe that freedom and personal liberty are (surpisingly enough) good things?
things?

[jmhobby]

Having poor parents does not limit your ability to succeed in life if you truly want to. Scholarships are handed to the best students, not the white ones.
And if you are a student with good grades, a scholarship, AND a member of a minority, well lets just say you have it made in tmf shade.
Academics is the way out for any poor person, but if you belong to a minority, you have even better chances.
Hard work is how you succeed, dont blame the world for your own under achievement.
And dont shunt me as a racist, my stepmother is black. And every successful coloured person I have ever met does not support affirmative action. Because they know its bs.
Plus, African American entertainment has become very expansive in this country.
And Native Americans have great advantages over the whole population education wise.
If someone wants to succeed, they can through true diligence.

[cmpcmp]

i belive that all pll are trulely =, but because of their situation they are differnt.

some how asians get priority over whites to get in to college becasue of afirmative action
yet statisticly they, score higer on tests, make more money, and commit less crime.
this is no stereo type, its factual evidence.

Is it because they are racialy smarter? no
it is because the asian culture that they grew up in because of their parents didn't let them fall behind in life or in school.

The real problem is culture, as long as there is differnet culture there won't be statistical racial equality in the various fields of bussiness / life.

this eqplains why ppl in bad inner city situations do bad on tests and why the same ppl in the suburbs score higher than average. the problem is that there are a mojority of minorities in the inner city.

in my opinion racial statistics aren't = beacause of the ppl's situations and nothing else.

so yes racial = but not statisticly, yet

[Osborn F Enready]

darwinist said: If everyone is Equal, then there is no discrimination. The problem with the current system, is that some people are more equal than others.

I say:
Well said, and I agree. That is one of the many problems with the current system.

Its too bad so many get caught up in racial equality, when the real enemy is the corporate equality in regards to citizens.

[underbear1]

Breaking up people, and making judgements about them as a group either by race or ethnicity is simplistic and ignorant.
All races and ethnicities have people who will excel, and those who don't. Racial characteristics are rapidly blending, so those arguments will be moot in a few more generations, and ethnicity and religious beliefs have faded to the point of irrelivancy to most educated people.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: cmpcmp i belive that all pll are trulely =, but because of their situation they are differnt. some how asians get priority over whites to get in to college becasue of afirmative action yet statisticly they, score higer on tests, make more money, and commit less crime. this is no stereo type, its factual evidence. Is it because they are racialy smarter? no it is because the asian culture that they grew up in because of their parents didn't let them fall behind in life or in school. The real problem is culture, as long as there is differnet culture there won't be statistical racial equality in the various fields of bussiness / life. this eqplains why ppl in bad inner city situations do bad on tests and why the same ppl in the suburbs score higher than average. the problem is that there are a mojority of minorities in the inner city. in my opinion racial statistics aren't = beacause of the ppl's situations and nothing else. so yes racial = but not statisticly, yet

typos . . . so many . . . brain hurting . . . must . . . not . . . correct!

AARGH!

[brien]

Quote by: castille They have this stuff in the US about having to hire a certain number of black people. In Australia we have this stuff about giving Aborigines extra welfare or giving them easier access to college. ."

Affirmative Action in the US actually is counter productive to the people it is aimed at helping in America. It is simply a "feel good" solution to the ruling class politicians that initiate programs administered by the government to gain votes so as to re-elect those very same politicians by those who the program is supposed to help.

See this link:http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2637

From the link:

The Grand Fraud: Affirmative Action for Blacks
by Thomas Sowell (April 1, 2003)

No issue has been more saturated with dishonesty than the issue of racial quotas and preferences, which is now being examined by the Supreme Court of the United States. Many defenders of affirmative action are not even honest enough to admit that they are talking about quotas and preferences, even though everyone knows that that is what affirmative action amounts to in practice.

Despite all the gushing about the mystical benefits of "diversity" in higher education, a recent study by respected academic scholars found that "college diversity programs fail to raise standards" and that "a majority of faculty members and administrators recognize this when speaking anonymously."

This study by Stanley Rothman, Seymour Martin Lipset, and Neil Nevitte found that "of those who think that preferences have some impact on academic standards those believing it negative exceed those believing it positive by 15 to 1."

Snip

What of the idea that affirmative action has helped blacks rise out of poverty and is needed to continue that rise? A far higher proportion of blacks in poverty rose out of poverty in the 20 years between 1940 and 1960 -- that is, before any major federal civil rights legislation -- than in the more than 40 years since then. This trend continued in the 1960s, at a slower pace. The decade of the 1970s -- the first affirmative action decade -- saw virtually no change in the poverty rate among blacks.

In other words, most blacks lifted themselves out of poverty but liberal politicians and black "leaders" have claimed credit. One side effect is that many whites wonder why blacks cannot lift themselves out of poverty like other groups, when that is in fact what most blacks have done.

Affirmative action is great for black millionaires but it has done little or nothing for most people in the ghetto. Most minority business owners who get preferences in government contracts have net worths of more than one million dollars.

One of the big barriers to any rational discussion of affirmative action is that many of those who are for or against it are for or against the theory or the rationales behind group preferences and quotas. As for facts, the defenders simply lie.

And another link regarding Affirmative Action around the world:

http://www.hooverdigest.org/044/sowell.html

From the link: Many—if not most—people who are for or against affirmative action are for or against the theory of affirmative action. The factual question of what actually happens as a result of affirmative action policies receives remarkably little attention.

It is my belief that the intentions of those who wish to force Affirmative Action upon society are merely misguided "do gooders" who pay no real attention to the results of their programs and only wish to see short term goals that will gain those politicians votes in the next election.

[McAiden]

If you want to be like someone else, then you must study that person/people. It is true, the Asians and Jews are people to know well, study their history and actions. We are doing that here in America, now. Indigent people are given free access to classes that assist them in learning English, getting a job, handling their money, cooking healthy meals - at the same time they are still collecting free food, clothing, furniture. That, at least is a start. We can't leave people with nothing to eat, nowhere to sleep, in this wealthy country. People shouldn't do that in any country.

McAiden