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Sodfather · Aug 30, 2004, 07:54 pm

Which country do you believe has the best educational system? What techniques do they implement to achieve such an educationl system? And above all, why aren't the United States, whose government is based largely upon the stipulation of high-quality public education, implementing these techniques as well?

LogicaLunatic · Aug 31, 2004, 12:14 am

Best educational system? Don't have a clue. Have heard some great things about Japan though. Could be wrong.

LL

harumscarum · Aug 31, 2004, 12:28 am

no clue either but I will take India for $500. I think our system is not as good because having a career or being intelligent is not in the mainstream.

Sodfather · Aug 31, 2004, 01:07 am

I was talking more about the role governments play in education, harumscarum, but the mental aspect of education is also important.

I think a big part of why students lack studiousness is that, in America at least, it is looked down upon by peers. Like you said, harum, "having a career or being intelligent is not in the mainstream." The majority of high schoolers can't see beyond next weekends kegger, or talking to some hot chick on AOL tonight...Therefore, they neglect their studies. Those neglected studies combined with often less-than-good educational instruction pile up over four (or more) years to make one hell of an uneducated, unintelligent individual.

Lava · Aug 31, 2004, 03:44 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Sodfather,
the United States, whose government is based largely upon the stipulation of high-quality public education

no-ones gonna bite that one, a worm has to have at least some amount of believability. Thats a sad statement for american education.

Education has a major effect on how the country as a whole performs. And the performance of each person affects other people too. Therefore good public education would benefit you all... but you mericans cant figure that out.

Dont worry, nor can we.

Regards, Lava

**Pooeypants** · Aug 31, 2004, 03:56 am

I'll tell you who is bottom league for the amount of money it pumps into the system; United Kingdom. *sigh* Will dig up proper statistics later to have a look.

Compugasm · Aug 31, 2004, 07:31 am

Lil' John is more important than Dean Kamen.

m5lange1 · Aug 31, 2004, 08:06 am

The best one I have ever studied is Barbados.
Admittedly this may not work as smoothly in larger countries with more complex structures but here is how it works.

(fair warning part of this is a bit socialistc so if you have a weak stomach for that sort of thing stop now)

It has been a while so I am doing this from memory so there may be a minor error or two but it is close.

Students take a test during their senior year. They get either two or three chances to take and pass it.

If they pass they graduate and the government pays for a 4 year degree in the US or UK (selected state schools I believe... no free rides to Harvard or Oxford). If they come back to work in Barbados for 5 years they do not have to pay back any of the college dollars.

If they fail they go to work in the fields for the government. Period. No unemployment, everybody works.

It is a pretty strong motivator.

This data is from the late 80s so it may have changed, but it seemed to be working well.

LogicaLunatic · Aug 31, 2004, 12:44 pm

Yeah too state controlled for me. Who knows, if the Gov't ran short of field workers it could make the tests just a bit harder and "harvest" some employees.

Lava · Sep 1, 2004, 05:08 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Pooeypants,
I'll tell you who is bottom league for the amount of money it pumps into the system; United Kingdom. *sigh* Will dig up proper statistics later to have a look.

Yep, we're famous for our cheapness and efficiency, but quality of education isnt primarily about money. Its only a factor.

NT

castille · Sep 1, 2004, 11:06 am

No system is "the best". It is dependent on what you want to achieve as a student. You want to be individualistic and persue your own goals? Go to America. You sick of working hard, and just want to relax and get paid for it? Europe has great welfare programs. You competitive? China, Japan, and Singapore are some of the most competitive educational systems.

Liberty Landing · Sep 1, 2004, 12:38 pm

Quote:

I think a big part of why students lack studiousness is that, in America at least, it is looked down upon by peers. Like you said, harum, "having a career or being intelligent is not in the mainstream." The majority of high schoolers can't see beyond next weekends kegger, or talking to some hot chick on AOL tonight...

*sigh* You know, last year, I might have disagreed with you. Then I found out the only decent person I thought I knew is as much a self-indulgent hoser as everyone else I know. I know officially know not a single person -- NOT EVEN ONE -- who really tries to live a moderate lifestyle.

As for the topic at hand, like castille said, we're comparing apples and pizza here. Every system is different, better and worse in some respects, and it's all subject to your opinions of what constitutes a good education, anyway.

Sodfather · Sep 1, 2004, 03:00 pm

Apples to pizza. Credits for originality, LL.

But yeah, I guess you're right. I had been viewing the best education in terms of which students had exceptional backgrounds in every area of study known to man, and then were much more skilled in one more specific area of study. But, the signs of an educated person differ from culture to culture, country to country. Thus, "apples to pizza."

Compugasm · Sep 1, 2004, 04:29 pm

My system is self-education. Tuition is free, I design my own major. It's really about solving problems. I keep looking for creative ways to learn what I want to know.

There were no programs covering the things I wanted to learn. How to build an organization, draw a tree, create a database, buy a house, spot a scam, or figure out what's important. Sure, there are classes on those subjects. However, what degree is that? Can I take the class at 3am? What real knowledge will be doled out in small amounts over the semester?

Some professions you can't persue without formal schooling. I understand that. My curriculum changes as new opportunities arise. Seek out mentors. Internet research. Create lists, make charts, and undertake the most ambitious projects I can think of. Live on a cash based system. I had to scale back on some goals to make a living. The result so far, is I'm damn smart, and poor as shit.

Sodfather · Sep 1, 2004, 06:15 pm

Sounds like you're just trying to justify your regretful choice of not going to college.

Lava · Sep 1, 2004, 07:03 pm

I agree with the self education bit, its certainly what works best for me. It would be. Education needs to be pleasant if its going to keep going and reach any real depth. It also needs to be relevant. How do you achieve both those things? Learn what you want when you want.

This is a major failing of traditional systems, you get taught stuff when youre not interested in it, you dont get taught what you want to know at all, and you sit there and watch all the interesting oportunities pass you by. So no wonder almost everyone quits! Consequently we have only a very small percentage of the population thats well qualified.

Also teaching in groups means everyones forced to the same speed, which really does not work. Why? People differ in their learn speed, and each person differs in speed on different things and different bits. People can not speed match. Again self teaching solves that.

If you have enough cells to teach yourself, it is a hugely better method. I have a model for school education which is based on this, and as far as I can tell should greatly improve school results if ever adopted. If anyone is interested I can describe and explain it.

Regards, Lava

Compugasm · Sep 2, 2004, 01:47 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Sodfather,
Sounds like you're just trying to justify your regretful choice of not going to college.

I've been twice. Banking/Insurance/Real Estate from 90-92 and Radio/TV Broadcasting 96-98. I know what I DON'T want to do, that's for sure.

Sodfather · Sep 2, 2004, 03:28 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Compugasm,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Compugasm,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Sodfather,
Sounds like you're just trying to justify your regretful choice of not going to college.

I've been twice. Banking/Insurance/Real Estate from 90-92 and Radio/TV Broadcasting 96-98. I know what I DON'T want to do, that's for sure.[/b][/quote]
What you need to do is get a degree in something which you basically enjoy doing, even if you've already taught yourself most of it. The harsh truth is you may be able to program a new OS for Microsoft, but if you haven't a degree of some sort, you'll never be given the chance.

flyohiou · Sep 2, 2004, 04:40 pm

i can't compare other educational systems as i have no experience with them

i like how we have set our system, but i don't like where it is going. the "no child left behind" concept is terrible. it lowers the bar which hurts the achievers in school in order to keep everyone on the same level. there will always be people on different levels; it's just the way it is. it's a responsibility thing.

i am also tired of the argument that we need to dump more money into poor schools. obviously, they need money, but money does not solve problems. abe lincoln's schooling did not have lavish amenities. he read on his own. good thing we have free libraries with all kinds of information. opportunity is everywhere in this country for those who seek it (well except for people with mideamenor drug fines who can't receive college loans

). unfortunately, many just want everything handed to them or expect it because others have it. wealth must start somewhere, and it only takes one person to start the trend for the rest of their heritage.

it's sad. more kids have more video games than books these days. plenty of teachers have told me that many kids do not possess a winter coat, yet always have the latest video game.

Lava · Sep 2, 2004, 06:16 pm

Isnt that the root of it today, people not taking responsibility for themselves? Just waiting around for other folk to fix their problems.

Aug 31, 2004, 12:14 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
LogicaLunatic Hrm... Location: MN Posts: 445	Best educational system? Don't have a clue. Have heard some great things about Japan though. Could be wrong. LL "Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive." -- Wallace Irwin

Aug 31, 2004, 12:28 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
harumscarum Igneous Magma Posts: 183	no clue either but I will take India for $500. I think our system is not as good because having a career or being intelligent is not in the mainstream. under construction....

Aug 31, 2004, 03:56 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,602	I'll tell you who is bottom league for the amount of money it pumps into the system; United Kingdom. sigh Will dig up proper statistics later to have a look. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Aug 31, 2004, 07:31 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Compugasm Son of X51 Location: San Diego Posts: 3,739	Lil' John is more important than Dean Kamen. I'd like to thank Charlie Hodge, bringing me scarves and water.

Aug 31, 2004, 08:06 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 649	The best one I have ever studied is Barbados. Admittedly this may not work as smoothly in larger countries with more complex structures but here is how it works. (fair warning part of this is a bit socialistc so if you have a weak stomach for that sort of thing stop now) It has been a while so I am doing this from memory so there may be a minor error or two but it is close. Students take a test during their senior year. They get either two or three chances to take and pass it. If they pass they graduate and the government pays for a 4 year degree in the US or UK (selected state schools I believe... no free rides to Harvard or Oxford). If they come back to work in Barbados for 5 years they do not have to pay back any of the college dollars. If they fail they go to work in the fields for the government. Period. No unemployment, everybody works. It is a pretty strong motivator. This data is from the late 80s so it may have changed, but it seemed to be working well. Protester against the culture war!!!!

Aug 30, 2004, 07:54 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Sodfather Igneous Magma Posts: 327	Which country do you believe has the best educational system? What techniques do they implement to achieve such an educationl system? And above all, why aren't the United States, whose government is based largely upon the stipulation of high-quality public education, implementing these techniques as well?

Aug 31, 2004, 01:07 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Sodfather Igneous Magma Posts: 327	I was talking more about the role governments play in education, harumscarum, but the mental aspect of education is also important. I think a big part of why students lack studiousness is that, in America at least, it is looked down upon by peers. Like you said, harum, "having a career or being intelligent is not in the mainstream." The majority of high schoolers can't see beyond next weekends kegger, or talking to some hot chick on AOL tonight...Therefore, they neglect their studies. Those neglected studies combined with often less-than-good educational instruction pile up over four (or more) years to make one hell of an uneducated, unintelligent individual.

Aug 31, 2004, 12:44 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
LogicaLunatic Hrm... Location: MN Posts: 445	Yeah too state controlled for me. Who knows, if the Gov't ran short of field workers it could make the tests just a bit harder and "harvest" some employees. "Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive." -- Wallace Irwin

Sep 1, 2004, 11:06 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	No system is "the best". It is dependent on what you want to achieve as a student. You want to be individualistic and persue your own goals? Go to America. You sick of working hard, and just want to relax and get paid for it? Europe has great welfare programs. You competitive? China, Japan, and Singapore are some of the most competitive educational systems. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Sep 1, 2004, 03:00 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Sodfather Igneous Magma Posts: 327	Apples to pizza. Credits for originality, LL. But yeah, I guess you're right. I had been viewing the best education in terms of which students had exceptional backgrounds in every area of study known to man, and then were much more skilled in one more specific area of study. But, the signs of an educated person differ from culture to culture, country to country. Thus, "apples to pizza."

Sep 1, 2004, 04:29 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Compugasm Son of X51 Location: San Diego Posts: 3,739	My system is self-education. Tuition is free, I design my own major. It's really about solving problems. I keep looking for creative ways to learn what I want to know. There were no programs covering the things I wanted to learn. How to build an organization, draw a tree, create a database, buy a house, spot a scam, or figure out what's important. Sure, there are classes on those subjects. However, what degree is that? Can I take the class at 3am? What real knowledge will be doled out in small amounts over the semester? Some professions you can't persue without formal schooling. I understand that. My curriculum changes as new opportunities arise. Seek out mentors. Internet research. Create lists, make charts, and undertake the most ambitious projects I can think of. Live on a cash based system. I had to scale back on some goals to make a living. The result so far, is I'm damn smart, and poor as shit. I'd like to thank Charlie Hodge, bringing me scarves and water.

Sep 1, 2004, 06:15 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Sodfather Igneous Magma Posts: 327	Sounds like you're just trying to justify your regretful choice of not going to college.

Sep 1, 2004, 07:03 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	I agree with the self education bit, its certainly what works best for me. It would be. Education needs to be pleasant if its going to keep going and reach any real depth. It also needs to be relevant. How do you achieve both those things? Learn what you want when you want. This is a major failing of traditional systems, you get taught stuff when youre not interested in it, you dont get taught what you want to know at all, and you sit there and watch all the interesting oportunities pass you by. So no wonder almost everyone quits! Consequently we have only a very small percentage of the population thats well qualified. Also teaching in groups means everyones forced to the same speed, which really does not work. Why? People differ in their learn speed, and each person differs in speed on different things and different bits. People can not speed match. Again self teaching solves that. If you have enough cells to teach yourself, it is a hugely better method. I have a model for school education which is based on this, and as far as I can tell should greatly improve school results if ever adopted. If anyone is interested I can describe and explain it. Regards, Lava

Sep 2, 2004, 04:40 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
flyohiou Molten Ash Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 28	i can't compare other educational systems as i have no experience with them i like how we have set our system, but i don't like where it is going. the "no child left behind" concept is terrible. it lowers the bar which hurts the achievers in school in order to keep everyone on the same level. there will always be people on different levels; it's just the way it is. it's a responsibility thing. i am also tired of the argument that we need to dump more money into poor schools. obviously, they need money, but money does not solve problems. abe lincoln's schooling did not have lavish amenities. he read on his own. good thing we have free libraries with all kinds of information. opportunity is everywhere in this country for those who seek it (well except for people with mideamenor drug fines who can't receive college loans ). unfortunately, many just want everything handed to them or expect it because others have it. wealth must start somewhere, and it only takes one person to start the trend for the rest of their heritage. it's sad. more kids have more video games than books these days. plenty of teachers have told me that many kids do not possess a winter coat, yet always have the latest video game. With freedom comes responsibility. With responsibility comes freedom The worst things you can do for someone are the things he/she can & should do for themself.

Sep 2, 2004, 06:16 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Lava Igneous Magma Posts: 716	Isnt that the root of it today, people not taking responsibility for themselves? Just waiting around for other folk to fix their problems.