On the ethics of attempting to change a gay orientation.

[Praxius]

I broadly agree with you, Praxius, (except I take issue with your use of the term 'cure' in this context) - but I think you may be underestimating the complexity of the issue.

Well there is no "Cure" that was my point, nor should there be.

Let the people here who insist that being gay is a choice of lifestyle explain to me why this should be - if all gays have to do is 'choose' to abandon their orientation, what makes them submit themselves to these sorts of extreme measures.

Indeed... I'd like to hear the answer too.

[big_lefty]

I think most people should consider medical treatment (including medication for depression, personality disorder, and phychiatric treatment) before deciding to be decisivley gay, or lesbian. Gayness and Lesbianism are a psychological disorder as far as I am concerned and my belief is shared by millions of people, most of whom are to meek to say so out loud.

Appeal to popularity noted.
Millions of people share all kinds of irrational beliefs. It doesn't make them any less irrational. Most people just believe what they've been told and don't think for themselves.

[Disinformant]

If someone who is homosexual wishes to seek these sorts of treatments by their own choice, then all the power to them......

Unfortunatly, they're going to soon realize that it's a pointless cause, because there is no real cure.... nor should there be. If people are happy with their sexuality, whatever that may be, then go to town.

These type of people who decide to seek some form of treatment to change their sexual preferences are usually only doing so because of the community they live in (very little tollerance) and not wanting to be "Different" to the rest of the people around them.

There's no reason for someone to seek "medication for depression, personality disorder, and phychiatric treatment" for being homosexual, anymore then someone should seek the same treatment if they are straight, or if they like S&M, bondange, spanking, balloons, teddy bears, or any other sexual preference that's out there.

As long as you're not breaking the law, who cares?

The issue isn't about mandating that homosexuals be treated though. And additionally, how sure are you that it doesn't work, aren't there many homosexuals who claim it did work and they're now heterosexual"

[GeminiBrian]

The issue isn't about mandating that homosexuals be treated though. And additionally, how sure are you that it doesn't work, aren't there many homosexuals who claim it did work and they're now heterosexual"

Re-read the quotes in my OP.

Gays who claim to have turned 'straight' are in self-denial - that is what e research shows, unequivocally: sooner or later Nature will out.

Such men are to heterosexual what Michael Jackson is to black people - go figure.

[Disinformant]

You guys aren't trying to be very objective about this. I don't understand what you're advocating, is it that these kinds of treatments should be illegal? If that's the case I couldn't disagree more. But, if you're saying religion is dumb, I'm all for it, and I agree. I'm certainly not a Christian, nor am I interested in converting homosexuals. I imagine for any successful case there are many failures; but again: none of your business. Agree?

[GeminiBrian]

You guys aren't trying to be very objective about this. I don't understand what you're advocating, is it that these kinds of treatments should be illegal? If that's the case I couldn't disagree more. But, if you're saying religion is dumb, I'm all for it, and I agree. I'm certainly not a Christian, nor am I interested in converting homosexuals. I imagine for any successful case there are many failures; but again: none of your business. Agree?

In what way are we not being objective?

No, there's no need to go so far as making 'conversion' programmes illegal - unethical as they are... Personally, I'm only advocating that gay people themselves recognise the futility of seeking such 'treatment' since just about everybody with experience in this area agrees they can do far more harm than good.

The religious outfits, such as the notorious 'Exit' have been discredited again and again, even by former advocates and members. Their agenda is to make people conform to their religious dictates, and not motivated by concern with the individual's real problem - which is lack of self-acceptance.

It is only "my business", as you put it, in so far as being gay myself all my life, and seeing some very vulnerable youngsters struggling to come to terms with their sexuality, I feel compelled to advise against such treatments, on the basis of much direct experience.

Gays can sometimes be cured of self-loathing, but never of the way they were meant to be by Nature.

[commonsense]

by GeminiBrian
Alternatively, who agrees with me that all such attempts are not only futile, but damaging and counter-productive.

Libertarians agree with you, Brian! All imposed measures...especially those that come about at force of arms by governments are futile, damaging and counterproductive!
Live and let-live I say!
I am so impressed by your intellectual growth on this site...
Those people seeking to "convert" gays are just as convinced they are doing humanitarian works in imposing their beliefs upon gays "for their own good" as are the well-meaning socialists advocating programmes and taxes who are in actuality only serving to aggrandize their duplicitous masters in power, who are expoiting their "Christian" or "community" spirit for their powermad schemes!

[GeminiBrian]

[QUOTE]

Libertarians agree with you, Brian!

Oh! my God! - where have I gone wrong?

All imposed measures...especially those that come about at force of arms by governments are futile, damaging and counterproductive!
Live and let-live I say!

I agree with the last bit.

I am so impressed by your intellectual growth on this site...

Jeez - and there was me worrying about brain-rot - but thanks (I think!).

Those people seeking to "convert" gays are just as convinced they are doing humanitarian works in imposing their beliefs upon gays "for their own good" as are the well-meaning socialists advocating programmes and taxes who are in actuality only serving to aggrandize their duplicitous masters in power, who are expoiting their "Christian" or "community" spirit for their powermad schemes!

You know, commonsense, I'd like you even better if you dropped this relentless bugbear you have with authority, just now and again, so that i could communicate with the real human being under all that proselytising and ideology. I have never encountered a person with your views before here in Britain, apart from a few stray Thatcherites who are now safely back in their boxes, so I don't really know what to make of you.

Acting on the principle that there is some good in everybody, I suppose I should give you the benefit of the doubt ( ) - but you do seem to go out of your way to rock my boat sometimes...

Now see if you can say something really nice for a chance - and keep those compliments coming - as you can tell, I'm rapidly losing the will to live on these forums.

[Disinformant]

In what way are we not being objective?

No, there's no need to go so far as making 'conversion' programmes illegal - unethical as they are... Personally, I'm only advocating that gay people themselves recognise the futility of seeking such 'treatment' since just about everybody with experience in this area agrees they can do far more harm than good.

The religious outfits, such as the notorious 'Exit' have been discredited again and again, even by former advocates and members. Their agenda is to make people conform to their religious dictates, and not motivated by concern with the individual's real problem - which is lack of self-acceptance.

It is only "my business", as you put it, in so far as being gay myself all my life, and seeing some very vulnerable youngsters struggling to come to terms with their sexuality, I feel compelled to advise against such treatments, on the basis of much direct experience.

Gays can sometimes be cured of self-loathing, but never of the way they were meant to be by Nature.

oh, okay, fine with me. I think we agree.

[Jack]

The thing I object to most about these "conversion" services is that they operate in an inhumane manner. Those who seek them out already exhibit a good deal of self-loathing. The "therapist's" goal is to make them feel even worse about themselves as they are in order to change. Any institution that relies on hate and self-loathing to reach its goals is inhumane. I feel the same about the belief in "sin" among the religious. No one should have to suffer through turning to some one for help only to be told they're in far worse shape than they previously thought.

That's why for many gay youth, the only way they can think of to "cure" their homosexuality is suicide. The other popular coping method is to play straight. Play a role, fulfill the expectations.

[Praxius]

You guys aren't trying to be very objective about this. I don't understand what you're advocating, is it that these kinds of treatments should be illegal?

I can't explain it anymore then I already did:

"If someone who is homosexual wishes to seek these sorts of treatments by their own choice, then all the power to them......

Unfortunatly, they're going to soon realize that it's a pointless cause, because there is no real cure.... nor should there be. If people are happy with their sexuality, whatever that may be, then go to town."

[Jack]

is it that these kinds of treatments should be illegal?

No, but if they should be able to show that their treatment is sound and the results positive. If they want to help gays, they should help, not make matters worse. They should also offer evidence that their treatment actually works. Among the most publicized groups that hasn't happened.

Every respected medical and mental health organization say that attempts to change sexual orientation are unlikely to work and can be harmful. The American Academy of Pediatrics, The American Counseling Association, The American Psychological Association, National Association of Social Workers, The American Psychiatric Association all soundly reject the idea that homosexuality is a mental illness that can or should be cured.

Truth Wins Out - Q & A

I put gay conversion therapy in the same camp as clairvoyants. They pretend to accomplish something that in fact they don't.