Taxing income

[Mr.Vicchio]

I want to know, honestly, where you, the reader of this thread, feel taxes should be at.

I.E. do you think they are too high? Too low?

Would you support say, 100% tax rate above a certain level of income?

Just curious here after purusing the thread about working so hard.

Mr. Vicchio

[waterfalllife]

Im against any form of taxation. If you work hard enough for it, it should be your money. Whether you inherit it, win it, work for it, etc. Income taxes support un-needed government programs, cut the programs, lower the taxes, and gimme my money.

[Liberty Landing]

I am sort of lower-middle class ($10.50/hr., 40hrs./week, so about $21,500/yr.) and still lose a third of my paycheck every month to taxes. It sucks tremendously.

I vote "too high." (This ought to be a poll, BTW).

[m3talsmith]

I vote no taxes; other than foreign trade. I would rather have things subscription based and everything privatized.

i don't want to hijack your thread, so follow this thread with my explanation, and a quandary of sorts.

[The Dunedan]

Income taxation is the moral ( and sometimes literal ) equivalent of Armed Robbery. Simple as that.

[m5lange1]

I see taxes as a necessary evil.

Picture a society the size of ours if we just stopped collecting them. Think for a bit of what may truly result in such a concept. We would end up a fudal state and be paying taxes to those who could afford the muscle to take them.

More realistically, in response to Mr. Vs original question.

Untill we get back to a balanced budget I think we should tax like traditional democrats and spend like traditional republicans.

We can start our fight again then !!!!!!!!!!!

[prettyredhead]

No, taxation is in place for a reason. I make only a bit of money. I dont mind the taxes taken from it. Apparently, you dont like having paved roads, and streets, or public schools, or parks, or public pools, or nature preserves.
And social programs. Depsite how you feel about them, they are much needed.
You cant live your life with blinders on. If we left it up to only the wealthy, or churches, there would be lines miles long and then funds would run out. Our many social problems cannot be swept under the rug, or just "go away". Americans tend to distract themselves from problems by working, drinking, drugging, or just indifference. These mechanisms are faulty and the problems do not just go away. You cant pretend they dont exist.
You must not like prisons either, or mental hospitals. Lets let them all free and start over. In order for a criminal to go to jail, the victims family must foot the bill, or he goes free. That is what you want>??
It is only money. You cant take it with you and your foolish to leave it all to your kids, who probably dont deserve it. Give it to your favorite cause instead.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by m5lange1, I see taxes as a necessary evil. Picture a society the size of ours if we just stopped collecting them. Think for a bit of what may truly result in such a concept. We would end up a fudal state and be paying taxes to those who could afford the muscle to take them.

I am not in favor of the income tax. Gov revenues are too high and that still isn't enough. Gov taxation and spending on bureaucracy is a weight on the consumer economy.

As for

paying taxes to those who could afford the muscle to take them

Isn't that the current situation? Without gov muscle how much tax would anyone pay?

OK. So we can't get there in one giant step. How about cutting expenses to the bone and then stepping back for some more big cuts?

How about gov debt service? Why is that a worthy expense? Somebody has to pay for all the loans and promises. It's us and our descendants. Jeez, what a legacy...

[Comrade]

I'd support limited taxes, no matter its "moral" value, but taxes right now are too high, and it is supporting too many bureaucrats, too much bureaucracy, too many useless programs...

[harumscarum]

Flat tax across the board. Taxes are all over the place and are too confusing. People shouldn’t have to get an accountant just to do personal income tax.

also ditto to what Comrade said.

[m5lange1]

PH QUOTE )from me (m5) paying taxes to those who could afford the muscle to take them Isn't that the current situation? Without gov muscle how much tax would anyone pay?

Actually PH I was referring to a MUCH more muscle controled tax system than the one we have now. That is why I referred to the word fudal.
I am in agreement with prettyreadhead but I see even more essential needs of taxes such as firefighters, police and some form of standing, organized defence (in the form of police from crime AND the military from foreign invasion).

Without some standing defense those who laid out the cash to finace an army (foreign or domestic) would not even consider your opinion about what they took from you.

At least in our republic there is some government accountablity about taxes. That is why it is a hot political topic.

Taxes have been present in every (even semi-civilized) culture for a reason.
Without them you do not think it would simply become survival of the fittest?
Or would you truly trust our countries' defence to a private army?
If so whose?

I believe most of us agree taxes are necessary for some things... we just really disagree on what.

For those of you truly in favor of eliminating them. Write fictional book about how it would play out. Not being sarcastic. I would love to read something like that .

[The Dunedan]

Book's already been written: Look up either "the Probability Broach" or "The American Zone" by L. Neil Smith; I prefer the former, as the latter tends to get a bit preachy at times. For short-fiction in a similar vein, check out www.doingfreedom.com and peruse their fiction section.

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by m5lange1, Picture a society the size of ours if we just stopped collecting them.

The govt would be accountable to general accounting principals (GAP) and show a profit. Just like everyone else who runs a business must. If they want to build roads, raise money with a bake sale, lemonade stand, or municipal bonds. Don't levy $2.50 tax to every gallon of gas and cliam it's "for the roads".

To suppliment the public transportation problem in San Deigo, they create "car-pool lanes", but that reduces the number of lanes on the damn freeway. So, they build more lanes? Yeah, it takes 10yrs to build an extra lane, and hundreds of millions in tax dollars. The accelerated "fast track" project to widen the I-5 will take twice as long as it took to win WWII. To widen a freeway, WTF???

On top of the gas taxes, car taxes, DMV fees... they will charge, using the "fast track" system, to drive on the roads already paid for with tax money! Residents have ALREADY PAID FOR THE ROADS, the taxes are robbery!!!!

[Liberty Landing]

Flat income taxes are better than progressive ones because they are also cheaper to implement. The current tax code requires huge numbers of people and equipment, so at least some of the taxes collected are lost due to overhead for the tax collectors. A flat tax requires only a collection staff, which is much, much lower.

I make only a bit of money. I dont mind the taxes taken from it.

And social programs. Depsite how you feel about them, they are much needed. You cant live your life with blinders on.

OK, so you are basically saying you're just looking out for your own class interest. So why do you get offended when I do the same?
I make little money, too, but I make just enough not to benefit from social programs. That doesn't stop me from losing a third of my paycheck to pay for them.

[m5lange1]

Thanks Dune Im going to check that out.

[Mr.Vicchio]

www.fairtax.org

The only tax plan I support.

[Lava]

[quote=Compugasm,]

The govt would be accountable to general accounting principals (GAP) and show a profit. Just like everyone else who runs a business must. If they want to build roads, raise money with a bake sale, lemonade stand, or municipal bonds. Don't levy $2.50 tax to every gallon of gas and cliam it's "for the roads".

I'm thinking that isnt going to even begin to cover the cost.

To suppliment the public transportation problem in San Deigo, they create "car-pool lanes", but that reduces the number of lanes on the damn freeway. So, they build more lanes? Yeah, it takes 10yrs to build an extra lane, and hundreds of millions in tax dollars. The accelerated "fast track" project to widen the I-5 will take twice as long as it took to win WWII. To widen a freeway, WTF???

yep, thats what it takes. Megabucks.


Lava

[Lava]

Originally posted by Liberty Landing, Flat income taxes are better than progressive ones because they are also cheaper to implement. The current tax code requires huge numbers of people and equipment, so at least some of the taxes collected are lost due to overhead for the tax collectors. A flat tax requires only a collection staff, which is much, much lower.

Even if you completely ignore the (im)morality of that, it cant work. The level of tax collected now is such that no flat rate could collect that much. If you try to maintain the present total tax income with a flat rate, you'll find 10s of millions cant pay it. If you set it at an afordable level for most, you'll find your total taxation income way below what it is today.

You have to take the money where there is money. Variable taxes are the only way to do that.

Lava

[Jeff]

I do believe in a flat tax, but I think that I define it a little different than most. If it were my decision congress would vote on a budget divide that number by the number of adults and send out a bill that would be due at the beginning of the fiscal year. Then we have the November elections which people could take into account what politicians had just done for them. Under this plan the government would naturally shrink very quickly and people would have more control of where their money is being spent.

[m5lange1]

Jeff,
Yea that is quite a bit different. The normal flat tax belief is that eveyone pays the same percent. That does not mean that Oprah and your mailman would get the same bill on tax day, even under a flat tax system.

Your idea of just coming up with a budget and dividing it by the number of adults and sending out a bill would have some practical pitfalls.

Is it just going to be prison for all the homeless and unemployed? I guess it is one way to get the homeless off the street and clean up the slums. But WOW next years tax bill for the prisons is gunna be a BITCH!!! Not to mention all those adults in the prisons. Do they just get thir stay extended if the cannot pay?

Or we could try to deport them all. That is actually what Hitler tried with the Jews but when other countries would not take them..... well lets not even go there.

Lets just look at you me, Bill Gates, and a retired mailman. Say between us we have to come up with $80,000. That is twenty grand each.
How you doin? I will make it this year, not sure about next or the one after. Bill just had a secretary send a check from petty cash.
I wonder how that retired guy is gunna do?
Don't matter I guess. At least this is fair.