White Privilege

[Dan_77]

Quote by: Diogenes Eg. if the population of African Americans is 8% of the population then they should be represented as such across the board...8% of the CEO's should be African Americans, 8% of the University professors should be African American...8% of the Teachers, Lawyers, Accountants, Doctors, Nurses, etc...should be African American...

90% of professional basketball players are black. Do whites deserve affirmative action to meet some arbitrary skin color quota? Why do we accept disproportionate representation when it means minorities getting rich?

As I've said before - we have had a dramatic turn of events in our nation, where it is now the affirmative action supporters who are the racists seeking to judge everyone by skin color, and the opposers of affirmative action trying to simply have everyone judged by what they do.

because most were held back and were not afforded the opportunity to get a higher education and those that managed to get an education were kept out of positions they would have held had they been white... that until they are demographically represented they deserve special placement or opportunity.

What if they're never demographically represented? Failure to be proportionately represented does not equal racism. The problem with affirmative action is that it's not combating racism anymore, it's (trying) to combat people's natural interests. Why force it?

Quote by: shawmutt I'm not sure, as a white man, I can objectively talk about "white privilege", because I personally just don't get it. I've seen successful white people, and successful black people, (and successful Hispanics too, but I'll stick to black and white for simplicity) and to me they all act the same. They have the same mannerisms, almost the same accents. Black people call it "acting white", white people call it "acting elite".

Or "being successful", or "overcoming adversity", et cetera.

I've seen unsuccessful folks in either color as well, and they all act the same, albeit with different dialects--rednecks and niggers. Both groups seem to have a disdain for learning, and they hate anyone that tries to learn. I was a booky as a kid, and got into more than a few fights because I was sitting there reading--that hate seemed to transcend color. I felt bad for the geeks in high school, they were picked on on a regular basis just because of their grades, again it didn't matter what color they were.

Agreed. We shouldn't be fighting perceived racism when in reality acheivement is just as devalued by some sections of every racial group. What we should be fighting is anti-intellectualism - the kind of idiotic thinking that calls a Harvard Law School graduate who worked as a community organizer helping the poorest of the poor (when he could have been making millions as a Wall Street attorney) an "elitist".

(I'm no supporter of Obama, but I want a President to be smart. Really really really freakin' smart. Shouldn't everyone?)

Quote by: Sonart . Given your discussion on Ozzie Aboriginals, I'm rather dumbfounded that the concept of white privilege is beyond you. What confuses you about poor white trash who tell themselves that, while things may be bad, "At least I'm not black" ? It's about class AND race, the presumption being that being of a certain race automatically determines your class... even if it actually doesn't. Jack provided several examples: You're a store owner... in walks a working class white woman. Customer. In walks a working class black woman. Possible shoplifter. You see a car full of white teenagers. High school kids. You see a car full of black teenagers. A gang. People are making a PRESUMPTION of class based on race.

Do they? Are they? I'm not aware of any proof submitted by you or Jack that the above is actually happening. I am, however, aware of a man who identifies himself as black and yet has at least the temporary support of over 50% of voters, despite his race.

Don't kid yourself, Tivo. It's race. Americans see Arabs as a different race, and Obama's ethnically ambiguous appearance only lends to the belief that he could be an Arab Muslim. Or even worse, a Louis Farrakhan Black Muslim. If Obama were clearly white... blonde hair, etc. ...no one would care if his name were Obama. .

Do you have any evidence of this? Or are you just assuming? I think the evidence that people are taking this position based on his name and not race is borne out by the content of any of 1000000 "Obama is a muslim" websites out there.

Quote by: Diogenes Absolutely...but as I said it's about demographics...white people are already well represented...if, for instance white people were 80% of the population but only had 40% representation then yes affirmative action should apply to them too.

Why does it mean I am well represented because the person in office has (relatively) the same skin color as me? In fact, I am not well represented. I am a libertarian living in a Republican Congressional district, in a state with 2 Democratic Senators and a Democratic governor, et cetera. Explain to me why my idiot Congressperson, whose views are diametrically opposed to me in almost every way, is "representative" of me because he is white.

Or, you can save yourself the lengthy, rambling "justification" and just admit your statement was outright racism.

Again - it is now the affirmative action supporters who are the racists - still insisting that it is skin color that matters. Any statistician will tell you that "demographics" =/= "race".

[Diogenes]

It's not racism ( there's your lengthy justification ).

90% of professional basketball players are black.

The reason why 90% of players are black now ( they didn't used to be ) is because sports was one of the first very few opportunities available to them that they could get with a limited education at the time.

you can cry and whine about reverse-racism...but then you're not on the receiving end of slavery and prevented opportunity as a result of your race or skin color are you.

(I'm no supporter of Obama, but I want a President to be smart. Really really really freakin' smart. Shouldn't everyone?)

So this explains Bush, and Reagan...

Seems to me you want a perfect solution in an imperfect world...it doesn't work that way.

[Median]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Those are all political issues; not racial. People make attempts to discredit Obama and igone McCain's shortcomings because Obama is the presidential candidate of the opposing party; not because he's black. Republicans dislike Obama because he's a Democrat. Get over it.

You are only judging at the last example.

[shawmutt]

Just a few points of contention.

Quote by: Jack I agree. I wonder sometimes how many potential Einsteins, for instance, that haven't been able to exploit their intelligence because they weren't encouraged or educated.

Einstein's a bad example

Einstein | American Museum of Natural History

Einstein's Education According to popular lore, Albert Einstein was a poor student. It is true that he did not earn top grades in every subject, but he excelled at math and science, even though he skipped classes and had to cram for exams. "It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle," he wrote, "that the modern methods of instruction have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." Einstein taught himself geometry at the age of 12, wrote his first "science paper" at age 16 and received his Ph.D. at the age of 26 in 1905—the same year he published four groundbreaking articles in physics. Even as a teenager, Einstein had already developed a profound mistrust of authority. He questioned not only his teachers but also long-standing mathematical and scientific "givens," such as ancient Greek rules of geometry and laws of physics established by other scientists. Ironically, Einstein's queries and resulting breakthroughs eventually turned him into an authority himself.

Quote by: Diogenes you can cry and whine about reverse-racism...

There's no such thing as "reverse-racism", that is an ignorant term. Racism is racism.

...but then you're not on the receiving end of slavery and prevented opportunity as a result of your race or skin color are you.

I don't know about that. Most of my family immigrated from the UK to Canada in the 1800s during the potato famine. I have Scottish, Irish, English, and a bit of native American blood in me. My grandfather was a potato picker, and while not an outright slave didn't make much money. They converted a chicken house into a home and saved what they could. My grandfather scrounged what he could, brought his young family to the US, and worked in a factory until he was finally able to retire at 67.

I wish, when arguing for equal rights, people--especially privileged white folks--would stop pretending that black people are the only ones who got it rough in this country. Black people are just as smart and resourceful as white people, and because of that have come from horrible treatment up to the late 1800s to a black guy having a very good chance of becoming president today.

Privileged white folks and their well-meaning legislature do more to harm blacks than the conspiracy of so-called "prevented opportunity". Affirmative action and other such programs treat blacks like the "special kids"--I don't believe that is the best thing for blacks or whites.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: The Bacon Guy And if Obama were a normal black man not running for president, Republicans wouldn't care that he's black. Their problem is with Democrats; not minorities.

Except that minorities tend to be Democrats.

And the fact that if Barak Obama were not running for President, he would still find it harder to: buy a home, buy a car, get a loan, get insurance, rent an apartment or get a job than if he were white. That is a well documented fact.

Bacon Guy, you know what the "Southern Strategy" is, right? Briefly, "In American politics, the Southern strategy refers to a Republican method of carrying Southern states in the latter decades of the 20th century and first decade of the 21st century by exploiting racism among white voters."

There's a bit of pragmatic conventional wisdom that says, and with which I agree...

"Blacks tend to believe there's more white racism than there really is, while whites tend to imagine there's much less than there really is."

So yes, there's going to be black folks who blame everything that goes wrong in their lives on 'Whitey', without understanding the need to take responsibility for their own lives.

But that doesn't change the fact that "racism among white voters" still exists, and if Barak Obama were not running for President, he would still find it harder to buy a home, buy a car, get a loan, get insurance, etc. etc. etc.

Quote by: shawmutt Well, that's where we'll have to disagree. You want to use racism to meet a quota. I want to see the best and brightest in positions regardless of race.

But that begs the question of who has the opportunity to become "the Best and the Brightest".

Here's me, Joe white guy, age 60, and here's Jack black guy, age 60.

My great grandaddy was the son of Welsh factory worker, educated in British public schools, who came to America, found a decent labor job and raised a family.

Jack's great grandaddy was a slave, denied even the most basic education, who's skills and black skin allowed him only the most menial of jobs, so he did the only work available and became a sharecropper. To meet ends, his wife also worked at menial labor.

My grandaddy started as a ditch digger for Union Oil, but through hard work, was able to advance to a management position and to send his son to college, including my father, to Stanford University Medical School.

Jack's grandaddy also worked as a ditch digger, but no amount of hard work was ever going to get him into the executive offices, or even a position as a foreman. And as a laborer, it never occurred to him that his sons could go to college, even if he could afford to send them. It was simply not something black folks aspired to in the early 20th century. He was, however, the first in his family to learn to read and write.

My daddy graduated from Stanford, became a Naval officer during WWII, and began a private medical practice in Southern California. It was assumed that his children would all go to college, and this assumption was imbedded in each of us so that, by high school graduation, we were thoroughly prepared.

Jack's daddy also served in WWII, but was never allowed to become an officer and, upon returning home, had few options other than factory labor, Pullman porter or sharecropping someone elses land. His wife, to help make ends meet, worked as my parents maid in the late 50's and early 60's

Now indeed, by mid-century some blacks could aspire to attend black colleges, and to become professionals in their own black communities, but these were the exceptions, not the rule.

As planned, I attend college and, as a white male, found my career path a fairly easy one, whether I actually applied myself or not. Of course, the more I did, the better it got, as I discovered when I returned to college after a few aimless years at various jobs.

Jack, on the other hand, coming of age in the mid-sixties, became the first in his family EVER to actually consider going to college. Of course, growing up in a black community, as he had, with it's poor, substandard schools, and with no parents or relatives with the vaguest idea of how to prepare him scholastically or mentally for college, getting into a good University was not the same piece of cake that it was for me.

And so it goes today... Jack's son still has a harder road to get himself included in the "Best and the Brightest" than his white counterparts, so simply saying that's what you want to see doesn't even begin to suggest a level playing field in how someone achieves that title, the various exceptional, high-profile blacks - who had the combinations of exceptional drive, ambition, brains and good fortune to become succesful, and who now assume that since they did it without affirmative action, anyone can do it -- not withstanding.

.

[shawmutt]

Quote by: sonart Barak Obama were not running for President, he would still find it harder to buy a home, buy a car, get a loan, get insurance, etc. etc. etc.

...get into Colombia university, get into Harvard Law school, get elected as president of the Harvard Law Review, get a teaching job at a college, get elected as a state senator, get elected as a US senator...wait, what were we talking about?

[Diogenes]

The point remains that Sonart is right...ok he used a bad example...what other contention do you have besides him using a bad example.

[shawmutt]

Quote by: Diogenes The point remains that Sonart is right...ok he used a bad example...what other contention do you have besides him using a bad example.

A bad example? According to him it's "well documented fact"! I think it's a shining example of how out of touch the "well-meaning" folks are when it comes to this topic.

[Diogenes]

"well documented fact"

I don't see that in the post regarding your complaint...yes he said ' fact ' but that is just a reference to his general statement wherein he used a bad example.

You're arguing over semantics rather than the message he was translating. I don't see a mistake in language , or the use of a bad example, warrants the accusation:

a shining example of how out of touch the "well-meaning" folks are when it comes to this topic.

If you make a typo should I discredit everything you say because of it? ' Look at the spelling and grammar mistakes...he must not know what he's talking about! ' ?

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Dio you can cry and whine about reverse-racism...but then you're not on the receiving end of slavery and prevented opportunity as a result of your race or skin color are you.

Neither are black people. No one alive today has ever been a victim of slavery. Sure past slavery may have resulted in some black people being born into disadvantaged situations. But then a lot of white people are born disadvantaged and a lot of black people are not born disadvantaged.

Race is not a valid determinant of who deserves help in life.

Quote by: Son Except that minorities tend to be Democrats. And the fact that if Barak Obama were not running for President, he would still find it harder to: buy a home, buy a car, get a loan, get insurance, rent an apartment or get a job than if he were white. That is a well documented fact. Bacon Guy, you know what the "Southern Strategy" is, right? Briefly, "In American politics, the Southern strategy refers to a Republican method of carrying Southern states in the latter decades of the 20th century and first decade of the 21st century by exploiting racism among white voters." There's a bit of pragmatic conventional wisdom that says, and with which I agree... "Blacks tend to believe there's more white racism than there really is, while whites tend to imagine there's much less than there really is." So yes, there's going to be black folks who blame everything that goes wrong in their lives on 'Whitey', without understanding the need to take responsibility for their own lives. But that doesn't change the fact that "racism among white voters" still exists, and if Barak Obama were not running for President, he would still find it harder to buy a home, buy a car, get a loan, get insurance, etc. etc. etc.

We're looking for proof of white privilege here; not just more unsubstantiated claims.

Quote by: Med You are only judging at the last example.

What? Every one of the points in that article related specifically to one politician who happened to be black; not to black people in general.

[Sockem]

Quote by: Diogenes you can cry and whine about reverse-racism...but then you're not on the receiving end of slavery and prevented opportunity as a result of your race or skin color are you.

Name one black man in the U.S. who was a slave in the last 100 years.

[Diogenes]

Name one black man in the U.S. who was a slave in the last 100 years.

is a reply to this quote;

you can cry and whine about reverse-racism...but then you're not on the receiving end of slavery and prevented opportunity as a result of your race or skin color are you.

You are either accidentally or intentionally missing the point...I was talking about the effects of slavery ...I assume most people are smart enough to see it in that context...or do I have to assume you can't do this and I must be very specific the next time as you cannot tell what I am talking about otherwise?

There's enough people here arguing just for the sake of arguing...try to be one of those that actually has a reason to argue.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: lsbskins1 What they were is not at issue, what they are now is at issue. The day Strom Thurmond joined the GOP is the day they lost that mantle.

I think Thurmond was a Democrat before he switched to a Republican, and then there was George Wallace who was a Democrat. Racism in the South was pretty equal in both parties back in the day.

[Sappho]

Quote by: Sonart . Given your discussion on Ozzie Aboriginals, I'm rather dumbfounded that the concept of white privilege is beyond you. What confuses you about poor white trash who tell themselves that, while things may be bad, "At least I'm not black" ?

That the whites are not privileged is what confuses me. Rather they are deemed to be the lowest of the low... so that no matter where they go, they lack that privilege you claim they have.

That many blacks would be treated better than these white trash is what confuses me.

It's about class AND race, the presumption being that being of a certain race automatically determines your class... even if it actually doesn't.

I disagree... already we have an example of whites being down cast into the lowest of kinds of class... and white trash can and do engage in inter-racial relationships.

I'm still getting more of a feel that white privilege is a class driven thing... in the same sense that blacks could speak of black privilege when contrasting the poorest with their middle classes.

Jack provided several examples: You're a store owner... in walks a working class white woman. Customer. In walks a working class black woman. Possible shoplifter.

We are too multicultural in Melbourne for me to understand this in any depth. White people, black people, yellow people etc... own, hire and shop in our stores.

Treatment is determined more by standard of dress, and behaviour... suspicious wandering and scoping for staff.

You see a car full of white teenagers. High school kids. You see a car full of black teenagers. A gang.

Again, Melbourne is different and currently in the midst of youth generated street violence perpetrated mainly by white first, then asians, then blacks. So that in both cases, normal folk would be suspect of both groups, due to the prevalence of violent crime.

People are making a PRESUMPTION of class based on race.

So an ordinary middle class black family with children in private education, with parents in corporate employment, who dress well, live in a middle class suburb etc... are going to have their class misrepresented?

What class would they fall into?

Yeah, and...? Are you making the same declaration as some here, that since YOU'RE not guilty of it, it therefore either doesn't exist or it's not your problem?

I guess you must find it really hard to believe that there exists in the world cities that are not so focused on race, in the same sense that Americans are?

I'm not denying that it exists by the way, I am merely trying to understand how and why it exists. Maybe then, instead of getting offended at my ignorance, you might make more of an effort to assist me in my quest for understanding... I'd appreciate that.

Americans see Arabs as a different race, and Obama's ethnically ambiguous appearance only lends to the belief that he could be an Arab Muslim.

Obama's appearance is ambiguous????? Are you suggesting then that their are levels of blackness to which this racism applies in the same way that Indians have their Caste System, which although now illegal, still prevails.

Are you suggesting then that coffee coloured black people are accepted within the notion of White Privilege and afforded the same treatment therefore?

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Jack I think it's sad that in the 21st century, after all this nation has endured, we still have to ask if the country is ready for a Black president.

I don't think anybody's asking except bigots like the guy who wrote the article, and stretched a lot of stuff to make it seem so. Hardly anybody cares that Obama is black from what I can tell, except maybe some like the guy who wrote the article.

McCain, by the way is very intelliegnt, and his graduating low in his Naval Class was from what I understand, more of a discipline problem, some of which may have been for him taking up for some underdogs.

We've had other black men run for President and some were Republican, Obama isn't the first.

All that Palin stuff is people being people. Palin's son-in-law to be is a young kid, and what has he got to do with anything in reality.

Questioning Obama's judgment with the Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, Rezko, and all that seems understandable.

Could you see McCain getting away with The Rev. Wright hanging around his neck for 20yrs., but he never heard anything racist from the pew? He'd have been out before he could have blinked.

[Jack]

I don't think anybody's asking except bigots like the guy who wrote the article

Huh? A bigot is defined as:

# a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

# Narrow minded or prejudice in your beliefs.
Bible Dictionary

# A person obstinately and unreasonably wedded to a particular religious creed, opinion, or practice; a person blindly attached to an opinion ...
Dictionary

Tim Wise is:

"...among the most prominent anti-racist writers and activists in the U.S., and has been called, "One of the most brilliant, articulate and courageous critics of white privilege in the nation," by best-selling author and professor Michael Eric Dyson, of Georgetown University. Wise has spoken in 48 states, and on over 400 college campuses, including Harvard, Stanford, and the Law Schools at Yale and Columbia, and has spoken to community groups around the nation.

Wise is the author of White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son, and Affirmative Action: Racial Preference in Black and White. He has contributed essays to seventeen books, and is one of several persons featured in White Men Challenging Racism: Thirty-Five Personal Stories, from Duke University Press. A collection of his essays, Speaking Treason Fluently: Anti-Racist Reflections From an Angry White Male, will be released in fall 2008. He received the 2001 British Diversity Award for best feature essay on race issues, and his writings have appeared in dozens of popular, professional and scholarly journals.

Wise has provided anti-racism training to teachers nationwide, and has conducted trainings with physicians and medical industry professionals on how to combat racial inequities in health care. He has also trained corporate, government, entertainment, military and law enforcement officials on methods for dismantling racism in their institutions, and has served as a consultant for plaintiff's attorneys in federal discrimination cases in New York and Washington State." (from the link in the OP)

Please point out where in his bio there's any justification for labeling Wise a bigot.

Hardly anybody cares that Obama is black from what I can tell, except maybe some like the guy who wrote the article.

I can't debate with a position that indicates no awareness of the current political climate in the U.S. Watch the news, read a newspaper and maybe we can intelligently debate the issue of race in this election in a more appropriate thread. I'll respond to a few other political comments, but it's heading off topic and I won't address them again unless they relate to the topic.

We've had other black men run for President and some were Republican, Obama isn't the first.

Alan Keyes in 1995 and...? Further, what does this have to do with White privilege? The references to this campaign are examples, not the sum of Wise's arguments.

All that Palin stuff is people being people. Palin's son-in-law to be is a young kid, and what has he got to do with anything in reality.

And can you honestly deny that had he been non-White people would have reacted with the same, "Ah, he's a kid, it's not an issue"?

Could you see McCain getting away with The Rev. Wright hanging around his neck for 20yrs., but he never heard anything racist from the pew? He'd have been out before he could have blinked.

Really? Have you heard about Rev. John Hagee, a McCain supporter?

Hagee has offered some highly provocative views on a variety of subjects. For instance, he linked Hurricane Katrina to the gay rights movement: " … All of the city was punished because of the sin that happened there in that city." He has also denounced the Roman Catholic Church as "the great whore of Babylon" and "a cult." He blames it for the Holocaust and predicts its imminent demise. "This is the apostate church," Hagee said. " … this false religious system is going to be totally devoured by the anti-Christ." In a statement, Catholics United said: "We hope Senator McCain will take the principled position of publicly and unequivocally distancing himself from Pastor Hagee's anti-Catholic comments." And Bill Donahue of the Catholic League offered a tougher view: "I do want a clear-cut statement from McCain saying that he knows Catholics have been offended, when this man hagee calls my religon the great whore and a false cult system." Today, Sen. McCain offered carefully measured words: "I don't have to agree with everyone who endorses my candidacy," he said. "They are supporting my candidacy. I am not endorsing some of their positions."

McCain Faces Fire Over Minister's Views, Presumptive GOP Nominee Faces Questions Over Rev. John Hagee's Provocative Preachings - CBS News

I'd say McCain's response to this issue sounds a lot like Obama's to similar accusations.

[SoylentGreen]

tivodan1116 90% of professional basketball players are black.

And 90% of those who run and organise those games making the greater profit are white. It is still the blacks who need representation in that area of the game.

[SoylentGreen]

SapphoThat the whites are not privileged is what confuses me. Rather they are deemed to be the lowest of the low... so that no matter where they go, they lack that privilege you claim they have. That many blacks would be treated better than these white trash is what confuses me.

As pointed out previously it is not about what they own or what they achieve. Even if a black man got to be president the white trash would still think he is a better person simply because he is white.

[Sockem]

Quote by: SoylentGreen As pointed out previously it is not about what they own or what they achieve. Even if a black man got to be president the white trash would still think he is a better person simply because he is white.

A few people speak for a whole race?

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Sockem A few people speak for a whole race?

Care to put some context into this meaningless statement