Border Patrol

[imasnapplefact1]

Share your thoughts on border patrol.

[thrashee]

What about it?

It's a shame it's necessary, but it is.

I'm very torn on this issue; I want to have compassion and respect the fact that illegals want into our country, but I've also experienced first-hand some negative repercussions of that.

In my mind, people play the emotional/humane card when it comes to this, when really it's a matter of national policy. Somehow, we should feel guilty as Americans for wanting to protect our borders. Somehow that's inhumane.

The true pushing point for me was simply this: seeing a sea of illegal immigrants protesting US immigration law openly in the streets.

[grandpa]

Quote by: thrashee What about it? It's a shame it's necessary, but it is.

It's not necessary, except for the preservation of a ruling class and for cultural, economic and political domination.

Grandpa h.

[thrashee]

Quote by: grandpa It's not necessary, except for the preservation of a ruling class and for cultural, economic and political domination. Grandpa h.

You're appealing to emotion now by using such words as "ruling class" and "domination". Are you trying to state that a country that wants to uphold due process for who can legally enter its borders is somehow demonstrating some sort of social injustice?

Who, exactly, is America trying to dominate by protecting its borders? Illegals trying to get in, or its own citizens, whose economy is affected by the influx?

[ironeagle]

I agree with thrashee, this has nothing to do with domination, the people of Mexico are not our citizens, are not under our rule, and if they feel they are being dominated then they can leave. If they have a problem with their own government then I suggest they spend more time protesting their own government than ours, in fact I suspect they are cowards, because our government is too lienient, with them, they aren't afraid to act out in our country because everyone will feel sorry for them, but not me. I say give the border patrol rubber bullets, and rubber bullet every last illegal imigrant that comes under, over or through our fence. I've had enough of this babying. Many of these people are criminals or engage in criminal activities as a result of the fact they are illegal, including drugs, assualt, rape, murder, gang violence, theft, identity theft, they also tear up and damage citizens property, break into their home sand steal their cars to hide from the police. They have also caused our welfair costs to soar as many of the women do not work.

[GHook93]

Under-manned and under-equiped. They are caught in a political game in which border states and sanctuary cities want the Latino vote against the laws they choose not to enforce.

Border partol needs the business to be held responsible, the cities to be held responsible and a physical barrier along the border that at least assists the border partol in doing their job.

[grandpa]

Quote by: thrashee You're appealing to emotion now by using such words as "ruling class" and "domination". Are you trying to state that a country that wants to uphold due process for who can legally enter its borders is somehow demonstrating some sort of social injustice?

Yes, and it's hardly jsut an "appeal to emotion." There are indeed ruling class interests in the world, and they indeed dominate people. The effects are very real. The fear of the ruling class is that people will fight their domination. That's why "countries" are established. Rulers want to determine as much as they can about the land and resources they control, including who can "legally enter" the country. That's also what propaganda about "love of country" is about. It convinces many that foreigners are out to destroy us. Meanwhile, the nation we support can expand, committing to all kinds of other social injustices, like what America has done in Mexico and Latin American countries for years.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Under-manned and under-equiped. They are caught in a political game in which border states and sanctuary cities want the Latino vote against the laws they choose not to enforce.

They also say soldiers in Iraq are undermanned and under-equipped. The purpose of that argument is to distract from what is actually being done. To "enforce" means that state agents are to dominate, remove or destroy, which they are continuing to do as elite interests see fit.

Grandpa h.

[thrashee]

Quote by: grandpa Yes, and it's hardly jsut an "appeal to emotion." There are indeed ruling class interests in the world, and they indeed dominate people.

Indeed there are. I don't think border patrol falls under this category.

Quote by: grandpa The effects are very real. The fear of the ruling class is that people will fight their domination. That's why "countries" are established. Rulers want to determine as much as they can about the land and resources they control, including who can "legally enter" the country. That's also what propaganda about "love of country" is about. It convinces many that foreigners are out to destroy us. Meanwhile, the nation we support can expand, committing to all kinds of other social injustices, like what America has done in Mexico and Latin American countries for years. Grandpa h.

Sorry, did the US recently "expand" into Mexico? Did we acquire a 51st state? Did someone forget to put it on the evening news that the real problem of illegal immigrant expansion isn't them wanting in, but us wanting out?

On some theoretical level, I can see where you're coming from. Yes, going back to the beginning of man, leaders expanded and dominated, countries were created, etc, etc.

Countries are a fact of life, and they are universal around the world. Maybe one day we can have a truly global community, but that day isn't here.

In the meantime, we do live in a country. We do have our own economy. We do have very real, practical things to consider regarding immigration.

I ask you again, do you have any solutions to this problem, or are you just going to fall back into socialist rhetoric?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: thrashee I ask you again, do you have any solutions to this problem, or are you just going to fall back into socialist rhetoric?

Being against all forms of government and nations doesn't make someone a socialist. A socialist would be more lots and lots of government solutions.

[JaneDoe321]

I believe our country would not care nearly as much about illegal immigrants if they didn't have the audacity to expect to be treated as humans once in a while.

We're perfectly happy to pay lower prices for goods picked, manufactured, etc., by illegals (America is very bottom-dollar driven... look how we scream about the human rights abuses and ecological disaster that is Chinese manufacturing and then look what people are actually buying.......) and we're perfectly happy to pay the "competitive prices" for things like lawn care and child care and laundry and decreased hotel rates because illegals are hired at a lower wage than Americans would expect to receive...

And then we scream about them taking American jobs, and ruining American schools and overflowing American hospitals, etc.

Well, we can't have it both ways.

So Border Patrol, in my opinion, is simply an attempt to pander to the PRETENSE that "We're Making A Difference" without actually making a difference at all, because we don't REALLY want to rock the very comfortable cradle we're in.

[thrashee]

Quote by: JaneDoe321 I believe our country would not care nearly as much about illegal immigrants if they didn't have the audacity to expect to be treated as humans once in a while.

An exaggeration and an appeal to emotion.

Quote by: JaneDoe321 We're perfectly happy to pay lower prices for goods picked, manufactured, etc., by illegals (America is very bottom-dollar driven... look how we scream about the human rights abuses and ecological disaster that is Chinese manufacturing and then look what people are actually buying.......) and we're perfectly happy to pay the "competitive prices" for things like lawn care and child care and laundry and decreased hotel rates because illegals are hired at a lower wage than Americans would expect to receive...

You mean that by law Americans would expect to receive, otherwise known as minimum wage?

Quote by: JaneDoe321 And then we scream about them taking American jobs, and ruining American schools and overflowing American hospitals, etc. Well, we can't have it both ways. So Border Patrol, in my opinion, is simply an attempt to pander to the PRETENSE that "We're Making A Difference" without actually making a difference at all, because we don't REALLY want to rock the very comfortable cradle we're in.

You have a very good point. We are being hypocrites whenever we support a business that employs illegals, hire them ourselves, and then complain about this issue.

However, wanting the lowest-cost product or service doesn't directly mean this. There's nothing wrong with wanting the lowest cost--I'm sure you do, as well. And to be frank, I've never heard anyone claim, if they get rid of illegal immigrants, that's going to cost me more. You're projecting what our reactions will be solely upon the fact that we enjoy low prices. Would people complain about rising prices? Probably. But so what? That doesn't mean what they're saying is, "Keep people here illegally, under the cracks, so I can get back my savings."

[JaneDoe321]

I lived in Texas where the majority of lawn services are staffed by illegal immigrants. In fact, a lot of "menial labor" is done by illegal immigrants. And Texas politicians (and many in the population as well.... look at the city of Farmers Branch, as an example...) scream about needing a more secure border and getting rid of immigrants, yet you don't see people checking ID's when they're paying for their manicured grass.

I'm not appealing to emotion, I'm speaking to what I actually saw on a daily basis less than a year ago.

[thrashee]

Your appeal to emotion involved the comment regarding "when they just want to be treated like human beings sometimes."

I think we still agree that those who take advantage of illegal immigrants are only hurting the entire issue, and if they're complaining about the border problem, yes, they are hypocrites.

That being said, in this day and age, you're walking a thin line if you want to start carding every person who wants to work for you based upon their ethnicity.

[grandpa]

Quote by: thrashee Indeed there are. I don't think border patrol falls under this category.

So, in your view, nationalism is a separate cataegory from elitism? And US corporate/government interests are indeed prominent in Mexico.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: thrashee Your appeal to emotion involved the comment regarding "when they just want to be treated like human beings sometimes." I think we still agree that those who take advantage of illegal immigrants are only hurting the entire issue, and if they're complaining about the border problem, yes, they are hypocrites.

Pointing out that "illegals" are human beings with interests is not an "emotional appeal," nor is it unreasonable to suggest that national citizenship is depersonalizing these people. It actually is. The state needs to depersonalize people (in fact, I'd say it depersonalizes everyone). And, as it expands, it exaggerates or even creates artificial and often totally arbitrary social divisions.

Grandpa h.

[thrashee]

Her statement invoked pitiable exaggerations..."audacity", just want to be treated like human beings.

I'm having a harder and harder time responding to you, grandpa, because your replies always seem to twindle off into some kind of Orwellian rant that has, at least on a practical level, nothing to do with the debate at hand.

I've asked you this before, and I'll ask it for a final time: do you have any solutions? Do you have any arguments that pertain to the debate? Otherwise I can only conclude that you merely use topics as a pulpit.

[thrashee]

Quote by: grandpa So, in your view, nationalism is a separate cataegory from elitism? And US corporate/government interests are indeed prominent in Mexico. Grandpa h.

Yes, it is. I won't bother pasting definitions here. Can nationalism spread into other things, including fascism? Of course it can, and history has proven so.

But back to border patrol, you're apparently taking the stance that Americans don't want illegal immigrants out of some sense of nationalism (or even elitism). And I'm not going to deny that that may be true for many Americans. Many Americans are racists as well.

Be that as it may, that doesn't mean that wanting to control immigration is an elitist thing. There are many, many practical sides to this. A country, a government, a nation, can't just open up its borders to whoever would like to come in without expecting there to be very real consequences to this.

[ironeagle]

Let's look at this perspectively. Yes some politicians and citizens are hippocrites, but since when aren't American politicians hippocrites? One thing being left out, is this, yes Americans buy imported goods from China and Mexico, even though sometimes we do not realize that companies such as Sanyo have Mechiladoras in Mexico. Remember though the only reason they are so cheap is that the governments of China and Mexico do not protect the workers who manufacture these goods, nor do they ensure the workers are paid an adequate wage. In many cases Americans do not save money, in fact the electronic companies in Mexico sell at fukll price here in America due to the NAFT agreement, they do it because the low cost of the workers pay, and manufacturing bring much higher profits as they sell them full price in the US. Although Americans should be less inclined to purchase products from these countries, especially China who manufacture goods that can be poisonous and dangerous, it is the countries in which these items are made who are at fault for the low pay of employees. An immigrant can have the protection of US laws in working, if they come into the country legally. Their own disrespect for themselves, by not seeing themselves as more than an illegal alien, by entering our country illegal, is their own fault and directly attributes to the fact they are being used by some people.

Additionally, every boss has the obligation to have a permit/license to have paid servants/ (maides, gardeners etc.) and as part of the employment process are required to copy and inspect identity via drivers licenses, birth certificates, etc. If they are not doing so or if it can be proven the employee has used another person's identity or manufactured an identy, then the people responsible should have to pay the consequences. I do not hire illegal aliens so I am not a hippocrite, I do not associate with illegal aliens, I would turn in an illegal alien if I knew they were living in community or working at my place of employment and I expect our state's to do the same.

As far as the Latino vote goes, there's nothing wrong with politicians who want the votes of legal American Latino citizens, but if that Latino isn't a legal citizen they have no right to vote in any of our elections.

Border patrol needs funding and needs to be taken more seriously. Some states are taking illegal immigration very seriously. In the past couple years Iowa has raided several cities, including Marshaltown(99 arrests), and Postville (700 arrests for indentity fraud related to illegal immagrants at one factory and is still the largest raid in US history) I think the American people should be appauled at the sheer number of illegal immigrants in our nation as well as the fact they are so confortable that over 700 of them can work at our factories at one time, for so long.

[ThoughtCriminal]

Quote by: JaneDoe321 I lived in Texas where the majority of lawn services are staffed by illegal immigrants. In fact, a lot of "menial labor" is done by illegal immigrants. And Texas politicians (and many in the population as well.... look at the city of Farmers Branch, as an example...) scream about needing a more secure border and getting rid of immigrants, yet you don't see people checking ID's when they're paying for their manicured grass. I'm not appealing to emotion, I'm speaking to what I actually saw on a daily basis less than a year ago.

Yep. Making their residency illegal is just a way to prevent them from getting paid fair wages for their work. It's how sweat shops are created.

TC