What your daughter may soon be sporting

[Gorgo]

Your question, Kyran, is why use contraception?

The answer is so as not to have unwanted children.

If you're killing children, then that's illegal.

[Zeebadee]

"Zee, you have some nerve to sit there and complain that someone is trying to force their opinions on you. Aren't you kinda forcing your opinion on every potential human being that could be put up for adoption?"

Nope, as a matter of fact I'm not. I haven't voiced an opinion on abortion either pro or con. I'm merely objecting to some in here that insist that they know The Truth about exactly when life begins. Decide it for yourself, and that's fine with me. Trying to force others to adhere to your beliefs is no different than one religion forcing itself on everyone. If you're preparing a surrender table, you get the chair at the head of the table. Sit right down!

[Mr.Vicchio]

Contraceptives prevent the child from being "created" to being with. Everything done up to the POINT of conception to prevent it. Abortion isn't a fail safe in case of pregnancy. Your arguement is flawed, thus your point is null and void.

Kyran. I understand your point about its the innocent childs life that is important, not the womans feelings. But! But, I would strongly council any female to put the child up for adoption, or keep it, rather then abort it. What YOU are missing is the mental impact rape has on person, male or female. It is unbelievably horrorific. And to carry that child maybe more then some women can bare. The option can be left open for abortion in those cases IMHO. But only with a 72 hour wait period and the rape victim being given full information on all choices available to them like adoption.

[Liberty Landing]

(Are we actually debating contraception now, or abortion as contraception?

The latter is wrong. The former is not, because sperm itself has no potential for life).

[Gorgo]

Wrong by what standard?

[Liberty Landing]

Assuming that the fertilized egg has potential for life, than it is wrong to crush that potential.

Of course, this is what we are debating. I was merely stating my opinion.

Nonetheless, you didn't answer my question. Or we debating contraception, i.e., condoms, birth control pills, etc.? Or are we debating abortion as contraception?

[Mr.Vicchio]

Gorgo is attempting to say that if we ban abortion, next thing we will be banning contraceptives because they are murder because.. I am not sure but thats his arguement. I think its an attempt to say pro-lifers are religious zealots out to rule the world... I think.

[Pooeypants]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, Contraceptives prevent the child from being "created" to being with. Everything done up to the POINT of conception to prevent it. Abortion isn't a fail safe in case of pregnancy. Your arguement is flawed, thus your point is null and void. Kyran. I understand your point about its the innocent childs life that is important, not the womans feelings. But! But, I would strongly council any female to put the child up for adoption, or keep it, rather then abort it. What YOU are missing is the mental impact rape has on person, male or female. It is unbelievably horrorific. And to carry that child maybe more then some women can bare. The option can be left open for abortion in those cases IMHO. But only with a 72 hour wait period and the rape victim being given full information on all choices available to them like adoption.

I agree with Mr Vicc with this point, I'd compromise on abortions allowed only in cases of Medical reasons or for criminal ones like Rape. Outright ban is just ridiculous way to look at things. If adoption was such a quick and easy option, why do we still have orphanages?

[Pooeypants]

Originally posted by Kyran, Why terminate children that can be put up for adoption?

Because we've over populated this world by several billion counts.

[Gorgo]

Abortion is a legal method of preventing childbirth. That's all I'm saying. I am in no position to predict what religious zealots would do. I was only making the point that at every level, there are people who are protesting reasonable actions. Some people don't think any birth control should ever be used. There are atheists that are against birth control. Hopefully they're more consistent that Mr. Vicchio, but probably not.

Society has drawn the line, and wherever the line would be drawn, not everyone is going to be happy. It seems like a reasonable line to me.

There is really nothing else to debate about the problem. The line had to be drawn, it was, so what?

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, Gorgo is attempting to say that if we ban abortion, next thing we will be banning contraceptives because they are murder because.. I am not sure but thats his arguement. I think its an attempt to say pro-lifers are religious zealots out to rule the world... I think.

[Mr.Vicchio]

You keep calling me inconsistant. Yet the best you can do is lame snide comments. Your logic Gorgo, is the faulty one.

[Gorgo]

So far, that's your answer to everything. You're inconsistent because you think it's okay to murder for what you think is inconvenient, but not what someone else thinks is inconvenient. Your logic is flawed because you don't have any. What is it? It's wrong because a fetus has a heartbeat, therefore it's a thinking, reasoning adult so abortion is murder. However, thinking, reasoning adults are fair game if they are in another country, or are poor or black.

[Zeebadee]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, You keep calling me inconsistant.  Yet the best you can do is lame snide comments.  Your logic Gorgo, is the faulty one.

You're not only inconsistent, you're hypocritical. You would allow murder in some cases, but not in others.

And you never answered my earlier post.



Edited for spelling.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Ah.. Zee, I explained mitigating circumstances. you just are trying to be witty and cool by playing on semantics. Whatever.


If you won't acknowledge that I bring up mitigating circumstances, like Rape. serious defects to a child, the mothers health...

In those cases there are overridding factors that make abortion, while not the best option, accceptable to a degree.

It would be better in the case of rape, for the motehr to carry to term and give the child up for adoption. And yes, its not the childs fault they were brought into the world. But Rape causes serious mental harm, and that falls under MOTHERS HEALTH. I knwo a gal who was raped, got pregnant, and nearly killed herself out of depression over carrying that monsters child.

[Kyran]

Gorgo, I do not consider anything less than a fertilized egg to be a human being in production. Why? Very easy. Do you understand the natural cycle of a woman's body and what it does to her eggs?

Originally posted by Zeebadee,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Zeebadee,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I haven't voiced an opinion on abortion either pro or con. I'm merely objecting to some in here that insist that they know The Truth about exactly when life begins. Decide it for yourself, and that's fine with me. Trying to force others to adhere to your beliefs is no different than one religion forcing itself on everyone.[/b]

That's okay. I'm psychic.

Now tell us just how your argument is relevant to flush-a-baby. As you can tell, no one on my side of the fence is trying to force anyone to adhere to any beliefs, especially not via the government. Do you think we'd be acting any differently if it was theft or kidnapping that was legalized?

Btw, we DO know exactly when life begins. If people did not know when life begins, they would not use condoms would they? OHHHHHhhhhhhhhhh...who's going to be sitting at the table?

Nobody is burning you at the stake for witchcraft. Nobody is throwing you in jail or stoning you for having sex. Nobody is making you believe Jesus on pain of death. But murder will not be tolerated.

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mr.Vicchio,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What YOU are missing is the mental impact rape has on person, male or female.[/b]

No I'm not missing it. If the mental impact is the problem, then that is what should be dealt with. Murdering someone will only give a person worse mental impact. That's just subconscious nature.

By the way, you ARE being inconsistent. Murderers don't get out of a trial by proving that a crime was committed against them, nor should they. But you have suggested that women be allowed to murder their children when they have been raped.

Do you realize how many women will lie if abortion is illegalized to that point? Try all of them who want to do the flush-a-baby. Note that this isn't my argument; I'm still waiting on everyone to answer the question I posted 6 times.

<!--QuoteBegin-Pooeypants,@
If adoption was such a quick and easy option, why do we still have orphanages?[/quote]

Because someone out there gives a damn enough to fund them.

<!--QuoteBegin-Pooeypants,
Because we've over populated this world by several billion counts.[/quote]

Sources and proof? Oh wait, I've got a better idea. Since you justify abortion in the name of fixing the planet's population count, how about we start murdering the chinese? A few nuclear bombs would fix that you know. Of course, by now you probably realize WHY the huge number of chinese in the world is no excuse for Europeans or North Americans to allow abortion. If the planet is overpopulated, blame the asians.

I mean COME ON Pooey! There's enough food going around to support the population now.

Let's talk about population problems though.

About 4,019,000 children were born in 2002.
About 1,370,000 abortions occur yearly.
About 5,389,000 children should've been born.
Abortion hampered our birth rate by 25.4% that year.
The abortion rate is 34% of the birth rate.

If abortion gains more popularity in the US, there won't be an America.

Sources:
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortions...ortionstats.htm
http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatis...aabirthrate.htm

Let's bring this back into perspective. I'm going to show you something.

25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing. 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby. 14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child. 12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.) 10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career. 7.9% of women want no (more) children. 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health. 2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.

For one thing, I don't see rape on this list, but that's besides the point. Now watch how I translate this.

25.5% {A} don't wanna right now.
21.3% {B} don't have the money.
14.1% {C} were told to by their man or don't like him.
12.2% {D} were told to by their parents or friends.
10.8% {E} can't balance a child with a job/education.

Summary:
32.1% are choosing money over life (B + E).
26.3% gave into peer pressure (C + D).
25.5% are procrastinating (A).

The top 3 reasons why American women abort their children. So enough of the arguing from near-nonexistant scenarios like rape, incest, and WWWWWWORLD overpopulation. This is what you have to defend, pro-choicers: greed, conformity, and laziness. Best of luck to you though.

Oh, and to further remove any possibility of the smart-ass remarks and attitudes, I'm going to make one more point.

Death-tolls from war:
WW2: 48,000,000
WW1: 15,000,000
Vietnam: 3,500,000
Korea: 2,800,000
Civil: 700,000
Iraq: 1,034

Abortion: 46,000,000/yr

Now who wants to argue?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

43% of women will have had at least one abortion by the time they are 45 years old.

You know what this means Mr V? It means fat chance of illegalizing it. Welcome to democracy. Rule of law has been gone for decades. I suggest we stop treating World War I here like a social issue and start fighting it like it's communism.

[Comrade]

People need to have more responsibility.
Abortion is an denial of consequences (as well as killing an infant).

Sex is just good fun...blah. You don't get pregnant "by accident." You get pregnant "by accident" by being a dumb hippy.

There are consequences, wake up, and euthanizing a baby isn't the solution for these peoples' inconvenience. You have to stop the problem before it becomes a problem.

Hey, guess what that is: Forethought and pre-emption.

Funny, liberals are the ones pushing after-the-fact action on the war on terror as well.

[Lava]

The arguments we've seen of murder vs nothing lost, sanctity of life vs quality of life, and other such points of view is futile, since it will never lead to any kind of concensus. I will therefore not address those matters here.

I have real reservations after my last attempt but am going to try moving the debate forward one more time. I cross my fingers.


There are 2 main views on abortion, at least. Jo public cant agree, experts cant agree. When a government makes laws it should be on the basis of expert opinion, when there is a clear consensus of opinion. This is to attempt to ensure the law is sound, and avoid creating laws against reasonable action.

Now, there is no such concensus on this issue. Far from it in fact. So it is difficult for a government to morally justify the imposition of one side's views on the other.

Then there is plain old reality, the fact that the law does not in fact control what occurs. Making abortions illegal does not stop them. In Britain abortion was illegal until 1967. The result was that abortions were carried out illegally, in unsatisfactory situations, by persons sometimes incompetent and unable, and with the bare minimum of lifesaving equipment, if any. Obviously the result was many deaths every year as a direct result of this law. Making it legal stopped nearly all of that. So much for a law against it being moral.

There are some things the law can not regulate, some things people feel far too strongly about to take much notice of what the law says. some seem to be so naive as to imagine that what the law says is what goes.


Then there is one more question. When there are 2 main points of view (or more), if you think you should be able to tell me what to do and control my actions, then logically I would morally have exactly the same right over your life. And sometimes you wont like my enforced POV. Do you want that? Since there is no concensus with abortion, the choice is between alternating control and non-control. In other words whatever your beliefs, the other lot will be in power part of the time, and can enforce their views on your life.

Its odd how folk dont notice this. The choice is not which side of the debate should rule everyone, but rather whether (all) people should be ruled at all in an area no-one can even agree on.


None of this implies which way I feel about the right or wrong of abortion, for the benefit of anyone who may have misunderstood here. But it does make cast iron rule by anti-abortionists morally unsupportable, EVEN if the POV behind it is right.



Regards, Lava!

[Lava]

Pooeypants:
> Because we've over populated this world by several billion counts.

define 'overpopulated' and someone can show you how meaningless or incorrect your statement is.

[Gorgo]

So, if a woman is depressed about her pregnancy, that makes murder okay?

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, Ah.. Zee, I explained mitigating circumstances. you just are trying to be witty and cool by playing on semantics. Whatever. But Rape causes serious mental harm, and that falls under MOTHERS HEALTH. I knwo a gal who was raped, got pregnant, and nearly killed herself out of depression over carrying that monsters child.

[Gorgo]

Abortion is taking responsibility. An infant is human being that has been born.

What if it is killing an infant? What difference does it make? The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Are you guys pushing the morning after pill? Are you adopting these babies you want to have in the world?

Are you pushing contraception or even condoms?

Fighting against a woman's right to choose, that's irresponsibility.

Especially coming from people like Vicchio who push wars against innocent people, born and unborn.

Originally posted by Comrade, People need to have more responsibility. Abortion is an denial of consequences (as well as killing an infant).