The SANE Community Exchange System

[SoylentGreen]

The SANE Community Exchange System is a way of exchange that does not use conventional money.

Trading in this system requires no supply of money, either by the community as a whole or by each participant. Instead of using a 'hard' currency, which then has to be allocated according to some formula, the currency of this system is the pure recording of the values exchanged in trade. Money in this system is thus created at the trading interface and is recorded as credits for sellers and debits for buyers.

So why invent a new money when our official monies seem to do the job?

....our conventional money system is at the root of most of the misery, suffering and problems faced by humanity. It is also the prime factor behind the environmental crises we face. The money systems we use are not neutral, non-partisan, services provided by our governments. They are a 'service' provided by private financial institutions (banks) specifically for their own benefit rather than those who use them. Our conventional money systems only work for those who already have money and marginalise the rest. They are also the fuel that powers the growth imperative of our economies, forcing us all to compete and having disastrous consequences for the health of our planet. The main problem with conventional money is that it 'exists', or at least we are encouraged by the commercial banks to believe that it exists so that they can 'lend' it to us at a price! As such it has to be created, distributed and the amount of it restricted and controlled. As money comes into existence when commercial banks grant loans, every unit in existence is based on a unit of debt. This determines the quantity of money, which has nothing to do with the amount of money people require to live decent lives. Such money is also based on speculation, because it is loaned into existence on the premise that it will be payed back in the future with interest. Despite its modern electronic trappings, our conventional money systems are a relic of history. They are the latter day equivalent of cattle or gold. The debt-based money system was developed for the industrial revolution to provide a rapidly expanding money supply that could not be provided by a money system based on the quantity of precious metals. This introduced intangible money that did not exist in the same way as earlier 'hard' monies, but people continued treating it as a tradable commodity. Money that 'exists' can thus be accumulated like any other commodity. It can also be stolen, traded, collected, destroyed and lost. Its distribution is not based on the delivery of value to others but on the ability of people to 'make money'. Conventional money has no restraints and always flows away from where it is created and needed, towards the 'money centres'.

The alternative:

CES breaks out of this paradigm by recognising that the electronics revolution has eliminated the need for an exchange medium. Never before in the history of humankind has it been possible to record accurately who delivers value to whom. Now that this is possible there is no longer a need for an 'existential' money; money can at last truly measure the delivery of value and be based on nothing other than the expenditure of effort by people for others. Money is information - a unit of measure - not a thing. If money does not need to exist as a thing it does not have to be created and distributed. People will earn money solely on the basis of their delivery of value to others, not through charging interest, trading it in money markets and a multitude of other ways without delivering anything of real value. Money that does not exist can never be in short supply, but no one can have more of it than the value they can deliver. No one will be able to take more of the social product than they contribute to it, as they do under our current money system. Wealth will remain where it is created and needed, and not leak away to the 'money centres'.

There are 11 branches registered in the USA.
I was wondering if any one is a user or aware of CES, and what you think of it.
This is a link to their web page.
Welcome to the Community Exchange System

The name of this organisation is just one of the many different bartering groups that are around.
international barter groups - Google Search

This is a link to some others.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I'll visit the links, but my first impression is it's a system open to greater corruption than the one we have today. And something that can just be created out of thin air has no value, if a bank or government is not backing it up.

[SoylentGreen]

Gods_Mercenary And something that can just be created out of thin air has no value, if a bank or government is not backing it up.

It isn't created out of thin air. You need to have skills or tradeable goods to trade. The money though has no value except as point keeping on the goods or services you trade.
That way the money itself, like the present monetary system, does not become a tradeable good within itself.

This is a commerce in opposition to the way we use money . The idea is that backing from government and banks who use money to make money is not necessary.

I don't propose a sudden revolution in our monetary system just asking you to take a look at a relatively new spin on an old idea of bartering.

[grandpa]

Quote by: SoylentGreen It isn't created out of thin air. You need to have skills or tradeable goods to trade.

Ultimately, money isn't even real. A variation on it is merely a variation on an idea. By itself, a dollar never amounted to much. What matters is how people act based upon their beliefs.

Grandpa h.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: grandpa Ultimately, money isn't even real. A variation on it is merely a variation on an idea. By itself, a dollar never amounted to much. What matters is how people act based upon their beliefs. Grandpa h.

I do disagree with that.
Money is very much a real commodity. Many banks and individuals trade on money itself and the changing value of it.
Government can control the economy by flooding or reducing the amount of dollars available. It no longer represents the value of an object but also the value of money itself as a trade item.
This variation however reduces money to a point system that is worthless in it self as there is no money to trade but only goods and services.

[grandpa]

Quote by: SoylentGreen I do disagree with that. Money is very much a real commodity.

It's not a "real commodity," but a conceptual one.

Grandpa h.

[SoylentGreen]

grandpa t's not a "real commodity," but a conceptual one.

Copnceptual means that it does not exist in the real world only our minds.
In that case how do you explain interest rates.
You cannot make something from nothing.
Stock markets trade in money. People actually earn a living of buying and selling money on the stock market.

I agree it is only suppose to be conceptual which is the reasoning behind the barter exchange groups. But current moneys used now is definitly a commodity itself and that is the reason our economy can fluctuate.

[grandpa]

Quote by: SoylentGreen Copnceptual means that it does not exist in the real world only our minds. In that case how do you explain interest rates.

Could I hold an interest rate in my hands or see it under a microscope? To my knowledge, no.

An interest rate is a mirror, reflecting man's ability to be subordinate to any greed-inspired, cockamamie fear-mongering power tactic.

Grandpa h.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: grandpa Could I hold an interest rate in my hands or see it under a microscope? To my knowledge, no.

Yes you can actually. You don't need a microscope there usually printed in large letters and placed in banks windows.
Have you ever had some business offer you a loan of money and all they want in return is the money back plus interest.
That's trading in money.

An interest rate is a mirror, reflecting man's ability to be subordinate to any greed-inspired, cockamamie fear-mongering power tactic

Which is exactly what is wrong with current monetary practice.
It can distort the economy because we are reliant on it as much as we are reliant on the goods we purchase with it.

Once upon a time people traded goods with money, now we trade goods plus the cost of the money with money.

[grandpa]

Quote by: SoylentGreen Yes you can actually. You don't need a microscope there usually printed in large letters and placed in banks windows.

You're still talking about something that is entirely conceptual.

Grandpa h.

[SoylentGreen]

The main problem with conventional money is that it 'exists', or at least we are encouraged by the commercial banks to believe that it exists so that they can 'lend' it to us at a price!

[grandpa]

Quote by: SoylentGreen The main problem with conventional money is that it 'exists', or at least we are encouraged by the commercial banks to believe that it exists so that they can 'lend' it to us at a price!

It exists as a concept, with legal pressure to back it up. Ideologues also promote its usage.

Grandpa h.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: grandpa It exists as a concept, with legal pressure to back it up. Ideologues also promote its usage. Grandpa h.

And how do they promote it's usage? By using money as a control for inflation by government raising or lowering the availability of hard currency.
Remember the last great depression? A wheel barrow of money couldn't buy a cup of coffee.

Have you seen the latest inflation rate in Zimbwabe. A million dollars to buy a loaf of bread.
Do we trade our labour directly for goods? No, we trade it for currency.

When you buy something in a shop are you paying only for the goods or is it for the goods plus added value?

Money is suppose to be a concept yet it is a trad able commodity.

[grandpa]

Quote by: SoylentGreen And how do they promote it's usage? By using money as a control for inflation by government raising or lowering the availability of hard currency.

Yes, but "hard currency" is still a concept. Concepts can indeed be traded as a commodity, but one's survival needn't depend on doing so. You're saying it must be the way to go. However, if people did nothing but trade currency and collect interest, human society would fall apart pretty fast.

Grandpa h.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: grandpa but one's survival needn't depend on doing so. Grandpa h.

Which gets us back to the OP of this thread. Which is an alternative to turning what should be a concept into a reality.
And my original question, have you heard of this system? and how many in America practice it.? and what do you think of it?

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: SoylentGreen Which gets us back to the OP of this thread. Which is an alternative to turning what should be a concept into a reality. And my original question, have you heard of this system? and how many in America practice it.? and what do you think of it?

I think it is the brainchild of someone with a very poor understanding of economics, in particular, what currency ("money") actually is in a fiat system - merely a representation of value no different than the "credits" this system uses.

[SoylentGreen]

tivodan1116merely a representation of value no different than the "credits" this system uses.

Except that with the trade system there is no trading in money , it has no value except as a point keeping system. Which is not something that can be said of hard currency.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Hard currency is a point keeping system, I sell you a bike, get 50 dollars for it, 50 of your points have transferred to me for a material good. It just happens to be physical as well as digital.I fail to see how it is radically different from the digital systems we have in place, except it doesn't have the versatility of also having a physical representation.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Hard currency is a point keeping system, I sell you a bike, get 50 dollars for it, 50 of your points have transferred to me for a material good.

Good, a very good description of barter. Now lets put that example to purchasing a brand new bike from a store.
You are not paying for the bike alone are you. Your also paying for other expenses that the seller has added to the bike whether for his profit or to cover other costs not necessarily related to the value of the bike.
In other words hard currency no longer is just a point system that represents the value of the bike alone.

It just happens to be physical as well as digital.I fail to see how it is radically different from the digital systems we have in place, except it doesn't have the versatility of also having a physical representation.

Then you didn't read the OP. It is explained there.

[Gods_Mercenary]

You are not paying for the bike alone are you. Your also paying for other expenses that the seller has added to the bike whether for his profit or to cover other costs not necessarily related to the value of the bike. In other words hard currency no longer is just a point system that represents the value of the bike alone.

This has always been true, no ones going to give you something and not try to acquire more "points" than they had before.