Prostitution

[Nono]

Kristof: Do as Spitzer said - International Herald Tribune

Quote by: Nicholas Kristof One response would be: Prostitution is inevitable, so we might as well legalize and regulate it. That’s a pragmatic argument that I used to find persuasive. If brothels were legalized and inspected, I believed, then we could uproot child prostitution and reduce AIDS and sexually transmitted infections. I changed my mind ...

I've argued it both ways, on this board and elsewhere.

I'd be interested in some sober, balanced views.
No rant, please, and libertarians kindly read carefully what Kristof says before posting.

[JaneDoe321]

I think there needs to be a delineation between prostitution as "sex between adults" and child sex workers.

In my opnion, prostitution defined as "purchased sex acts performed by consenting adult(s) with consenting adult(s)" should not be legal. Regulated, I think, but not criminalized.

Child sex abuse should absolutely be criminalized. But we already have laws against that. We also have laws against certain forms of child labor, which can be verified/regulated. I don't see why, in an environment where the industry has been legalized and regulated, you can't check the "prostitute license" (and will people make fake licenses? Probably.. they do that in other industries as well, and there should always be steps taken to prevent that).

I think the argument that prostitution leads to childhood sex abuse so we should throw out the whole thing is ridiculous.

[Walrus]

One of the problems is that there will probably already be a criminal infrastructure in place, so to simply legalise prostitution would be irresponsible, as this criminal element will continue to run it.

If prostitution is legalised, it also needs to be strictly monitored in order to prevent coercion, underage participants, drug use and to enforce regular health checks in order the help control the spread of sexually transmitted disease.

[HelioPrime]

Prostitution just assists lowering the value of marriage and relationships. Promotion of sex as nothing but a tool to satisfy your pleasures. Rather than glorifying marriage and couples we reduce everything to instant gratification. And following the legalization would of course be the sex toys and DVD's available in every store, and sex legalized in public.

[Compugasm]

It is mentioned that it didn't work in Amsterdam. But why doesn't trafficking, violence and child prostitution happen in Nevada? It would seem there is more to the issue that just prostitution that is in effect.

[DCAPBTLS77]

Can you even imagine the taxes that could be made off of legalized prostitution, we could probably put a major dent in the national debt, And if you have enough imagination there are sex toys available in every store , Take a look around, massagers, KY jelly, spatulas , produce.....sex toys far as the eye can see ......Let me take it down to a really basic level , dating is kind of almost legalized prostitution anyway , all men pay for sex in some way, and all women sell it, i dare anyone to try and tell me im wrong,Marriage is stupid anyway, and all prostitution does is cut out allthe spending of money on nonsensical crap, like flowers and junk that men pay for in the hopes of getting laid.

[grandpa]

Quote by: DCAPBTLS77 Can you even imagine the taxes that could be made off of legalized prostitution, we could probably put a major dent in the national debt, And if you have enough imagination there are sex toys available in every store , Take a look around, massagers, KY jelly, spatulas , produce..... sex toys far as the eye can see ......

It's true true that, in one way or another, men usually get to pay them to "do it." And a lot of women actually have the mentality of prostitutes, with men often regarding them as sex objects.

Grandpa h.

[Technosoul]

Not only that but positutes would need qualified mentors who can advise them about thier potential emotional or phychological problems, so they will drop out or take time off as needed, or so they can develope the right attitudes for that line of service.

Not all girls (and men) would get paid 1000 bucks for their conscent. If it were legal you would have a lot of $20.00 quickie girls or at least a low-cost - low pay - version of what you read about in the New York scandle.
Just like some models get big bucks from Playboy Mag and other models work for next-to-nothing.

About the age of consent. What we would need and what I am now proposing is a phychological test that can be used to determine how mature a person really is. Because maturity is what is happening in the mind, not what the body looks like.

I know some 25 year olds who are still too stupid to logically conscent to anything, even marrage.

So what do you think about a test and a "maturity certificate". Sort of like when you get a degree certificate in a collage.

Hmm? I even amaze my self with all these ideas I pull out of the blue.

[Domino]

I've often thought our society would be greatly advantaged by having some sort of official maturity test. However, I cannot imagine what would go into such a test, nor how you could convince the people that it could be trusted.

"What do you mean, my 13 year-old daughter is a legal adult?!? I'm not even a legal adult, yet!"

[Morality Games]

Quote by: DCAPBTLS77 Can you even imagine the taxes that could be made off of legalized prostitution, we could probably put a major dent in the national debt, And if you have enough imagination there are sex toys available in every store , Take a look around, massagers, KY jelly, spatulas , produce.....sex toys far as the eye can see ......Let me take it down to a really basic level , dating is kind of almost legalized prostitution anyway , all men pay for sex in some way, and all women sell it, i dare anyone to try and tell me im wrong,Marriage is stupid anyway, and all prostitution does is cut out allthe spending of money on nonsensical crap, like flowers and junk that men pay for in the hopes of getting laid.

I think marriage is non-essential, although 'stupid' might be taking too far. At any rate, relationships between men and women can acquire a greater depth than that of client and sex-producer.

[Nono]

Helio, DCA, gramps, Domino and Games -- you're not adressing the subject of this thread. You're just sounding off on fringe topics.

The question is whether legalizing prostitution (or criminalizing it in countries where it's legal) would make the problems Kristof's concerned about better or worse.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: Nono Kristof: Do as Spitzer said - International Herald Tribune I've argued it both ways, on this board and elsewhere. I'd be interested in some sober, balanced views. No rant, please, and libertarians kindly read carefully what Kristof says before posting.

As Kristof argues, its OK to legalise the women (or men) but its those who are "Running" them who laugh the loudest. The pips and gangs who live off these workers are the ones who have soiled and spoiled the worlds so called oldest profession.

The arguments on whether to be legalised or not, hinge in two camps in my opinion

Those who find it moraly reprhensible

Those who agree with the principal of free trade and the rights of a human being to make a living from their skills

Sadly with the latter there are too many others who will also make money
The legalislation would need thorough drafting, freedoms of individuals to be fully accountable. Strict regulation on those who ran agencies and work places.
(It could enable a special class of auditor who checked all apsects prior to licencing. Possibly courses to be run in special skills)

Of course it won't happen, because society is too scared to allow even more legislation.

Plus isn't part of the joy of paying, the ilegality of it so the guilt is in someway mitigated?

[MplsBison]

From the article:

And the bottom line is that if you want to rape a 13-year-old girl imported from Eastern Europe, you'll have a much easier time in Amsterdam than in Stockholm.

His basis for keeping prostitution illegal is that trafficking teenage girls is harder.


But those are two fundamentally different things: prostitution has no victim while trafficking has an obvious victim.




Trying to link the two and thus apply restrictions on one for the sake of the other is ethically and intellectually dishonest.

[grandpa]

Quote by: MplsBison From the article: His basis for keeping prostitution illegal is that trafficking teenage girls is harder. But those are two fundamentally different things: prostitution has no victim while trafficking has an obvious victim.

But it's not a difference most find compelling. And I wouldn't say prostitutes are never some kind of victim. Many engage in it "When things are rough," or however you want to put it. Of course, it's also true that not all prostitutes have suffered from physical abuse or poverty. Porn is certainly a kind of prostitution, and some people actually enjoy "acting" in it.

Grandpa h.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Nono Helio, DCA, gramps, Domino and Games -- you're not adressing the subject of this thread. You're just sounding off on fringe topics. The question is whether legalizing prostitution (or criminalizing it in countries where it's legal) would make the problems Kristof's concerned about better or worse.

Because I can't look at it from that perspective. Prostitution is wrong. To agree that legalizing it might reduce some problems would be ammo for libertarians and other secularist to demand it be legalized.

[MplsBison]

It should be legalized, though.


Buying sex, I could see where there might be a basis for making that illegal.


But selling it? As long as you're not coerced to do so?

Never wrong.

[SoylentGreen]

Just legalising doesn't make the difference.
Then there has to be some kind of organisation within the prostitution ring to organise and over see it.

In New Zealand where it is legal they also have the New Zealand Prostitutes’ Collective.
This helps prostitutes and helps to ensure that the proffesion remains legal.
PROSTITUTION - The healthy hooker

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: grandpa But it's not a difference most find compelling. And I wouldn't say prostitutes are never some kind of victim. Many engage in it "When things are rough," or however you want to put it. Of course, it's also true that not all prostitutes have suffered from physical abuse or poverty. Porn is certainly a kind of prostitution, and some people actually enjoy "acting" in it. Grandpa h.

People turn to jobs at McDonalds "when things are rough" too. So I don't think that there is a monopoly among prostitutes in that perspective.

The difference as I see it is there is a sizable population who have religious/moral "EWWWWW" reactions to "the oldest profession" and virtually nobody outside of PETA thinks McDonald's engages in immoral activities (frankly, their sodium/fat content is probably *way* more statistically dangerous than prostitution, especially in a controlled environment).

I do get so tired of other people limiting *my* choices based on *their* religious convictions, tho.

[BugsBunny07]

Quote by: Walrus One of the problems is that there will probably already be a criminal infrastructure in place, so to simply legalise prostitution would be irresponsible, as this criminal element will continue to run it. If prostitution is legalised, it also needs to be strictly monitored in order to prevent coercion, underage participants, drug use and to enforce regular health checks in order the help control the spread of sexually transmitted disease.

Can you prove the point? Bear in mind that there are places (Nevada, Bunny Ranch, wiki it) where prostitution is legal and taxed and it is not apparently run by criminal infrastructure that pre-existed legalization.

[Morality Games]

Quote by: HelioPrime Because I can't look at it from that perspective. Prostitution is wrong. To agree that legalizing it might reduce some problems would be ammo for libertarians and other secularist to demand it be legalized.

While everyone is free to decide for themselves what is right and wrong, and base their life decisions accordingly, in a democratic society, the only justification there can be for the illegalization of some activity is proof that it irreparably harms the flourishing (personal life successes) of a sizeable majority of the community (otherwise, it strays from the logical form of a democratic society and becomes something else -- continual reference to the society as a 'democracy' is nominal, not actual or real).

It is on this condition only, a willingness not to forcefully inflict oneself on others in a decisively unfair manner, that a democratic society can exist. If people desire control too much to abide by that, then they should go live somewhere else where values are mandated rather than formed on basis of one's own experience of what is good and bad.

On the prostitution issue -- as with any law made by an earthly, democratic government, it can only be considered in light of what appears likely to reduce the problems of society while respecting the rights of individuals. In the logical context of a democratic society, that is both fair and just.