SAT and ACT

[DragonPaw]

The SAT and ACT are standardized exams used for college admission in the United States.

What are your opinions on these tests?

Some questions to start off:
-Should students spend their high school career training to pass a test (whether SAT, ACT, etc.)?
-Should colleges and universities make the SAT and/or ACT test(s) mandatory for student admission, or should the test(s) be optional?
-Are the SAT and ACT a good way to show a student's knowledge?
-Are the SAT and ACT fair to all students?

More information on the tests here:
SAT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ACT (examination) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Gods_Mercenary]

Overly standardized, ACT gets kinda pointless, but I've never taken it. Having said that, Something is needed for colleges to judge everyone on the same level

[Chaossaber314]

If colleges primarily use this or that as a means of judging admittance to their school, YES their curriculum should center around helping them reach the next level. For instance (say that the ACT is the most widely accepted), specific math featured in the ACT should be focused on, because if you don't know this math it's not a criticism of your ability to learn it, but of your school's curriculum to catch up with the times.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Or you could just be bad at math.

[Chaossaber314]

If it's not in your school's curriculum, than we'll never know.

[Gods_Mercenary]

If you don't have Alg. I to at least pre-calc in your curriculum, where the hell are you going?

[Chaossaber314]

Since when has ACT or SAT math ever been that general?

[Hurt]

SAT math is limited at Algebra II.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Since when has ACT or SAT math ever been that general?

When did I say it was general, I just said that any high school can teach you what you need to know on the SAT.

[DragonPaw]

Added two more questions to the original post.

I suppose I will put up my opinions as well.

I believe that the tests should be optional as they can deter students from good colleges/universities that require SAT/ACT (such as the UC system). An intelligent and knowledgeable student may have trouble with the test because it is a rather high speed guessing game and may not allow the time the student needs. Also, colleges may use these tests to "filter out" future college students using a certain minimum test score - this way, the college would not have to "waste time" looking at a student's grades and performance in high school if he/she did not meet the minimum score - not very fair to a student who does well in a high school with good standards but not on the test.

I also believe that the tests do not properly show a student's knowledge. Once again, the test is a high speed guessing game. The tight time limit barely gives a student time to read the questions on the test and consider answers. A knowledgeable student may have the ability to solve the problems, but not in the time limit - this would not be accurate in showing the student's true gained knowledge.

For example, on the SAT, there is an essay writing section with a random prompt not given before hand. The essay must be completed in 25 minutes - in other words, written in 20 minutes to leave time for proof-reading. This discourages creativity in the teaching of essay writing in high school, and encourages a standardized form.

[Hurt]

Quote by: DragonPaw Added two more questions to the original post. I suppose I will put up my opinions as well. I believe that the tests should be optional as they can deter students from good colleges/universities that require SAT/ACT (such as the UC system). An intelligent and knowledgeable student may have trouble with the test because it is a rather high speed guessing game and may not allow the time the student needs. Also, colleges may use these tests to "filter out" future college students using a certain minimum test score - this way, the college would not have to "waste time" looking at a student's grades and performance in high school if he/she did not meet the minimum score - not very fair to a student who does well in a high school with good standards but not on the test. I also believe that the tests do not properly show a student's knowledge. Once again, the test is a high speed guessing game. The tight time limit barely gives a student time to read the questions on the test and consider answers. A knowledgeable student may have the ability to solve the problems, but not in the time limit - this would not be accurate in showing the student's true gained knowledge. For example, on the SAT, there is an essay writing section with a random prompt not given before hand. The essay must be completed in 25 minutes - in other words, written in 20 minutes to leave time for proof-reading. This discourages creativity in the teaching of essay writing in high school, and encourages a standardized form.

I think the essay's more of a "can you construct a basic argument" sort of thing. I have to admit - it does take practice which makes it a little odd to be in use.. but it's not impossible.

[DragonPaw]

I think the essay's more of a "can you construct a basic argument" sort of thing. I have to admit - it does take practice which makes it a little odd to be in use.. but it's not impossible.

It may not be impossible, but that does not mean it is a good way to test students' ability to write essays. In order to write this essay, students must be trained for their four years of high school; the method, the formula of writing a random essay very rapidly must be pounded into them for four years. And for what? Just to pass one test. Instead of training students to be good, creative essay writers for life, they are trained to be good SAT essay writers - and you can hardly call the SAT essay an essay; more like three or four short paragraphs strung together. Good essays require time. With constant training for the SAT essay, a student leaves high school with a formula for writing essays very rapidly, but perhaps an inability to write any other type of essay from having to pound out the SAT-type essay to the point that it became mechanical (which is really the only way it can be written on the SAT in time).

The tests are less about knowing and more about being able to rapidly pound out guessed answers.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I agree that the essay requires too much training, but it also gives you awareness of how to formulate a decent argument when you don't have a month to do it. It's a very helpful skill, few of us will have to write long, edited and reviewed papers in our non-academic life, but almost all will have to argue for or against something in a few well, if not superbly written paragraphs.

[Hurt]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I agree that the essay requires too much training, but it also gives you awareness of how to formulate a decent argument when you don't have a month to do it. It's a very helpful skill, few of us will have to write long, edited and reviewed papers in our non-academic life, but almost all will have to argue for or against something in a few well, if not superbly written paragraphs.

I agree with that. It demonstrates a basic literacy to say the least. (a good essay)

[DragonPaw]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I agree that the essay requires too much training, but it also gives you awareness of how to formulate a decent argument when you don't have a month to do it. It's a very helpful skill, few of us will have to write long, edited and reviewed papers in our non-academic life, but almost all will have to argue for or against something in a few well, if not superbly written paragraphs.

Yes, but a good essay does not necessarily require a month to write. A good two-page, five-paragraph essay can be written in two to three hours - time that could surely be spared for the purpose on even a busy person's schedule. Writing an essay in 25 minutes is illogical - it forces one to adapt a formula for pounding out a quick and often mediocre (not necessarily so because of a lack of ability, but rather because of the ridiculous circumstances it must be written under) essay. This deters the creativity which is needed in writing essays.

Perhaps the reason for only allowing 25 minutes for writing is to force students to keep the essays short to make it easier for the readers/graders of the essays... If this is the case, it is very sad indeed. To teach so many students to adapt a mechanical method of writing (that could affect their entire life's worth of writing) for the sake of a grader of one test would be awful indeed! I sure hope that this is not the case.

Quote by: Hurt I agree with that. It demonstrates a basic literacy to say the least. (a good essay)

Sure, it may show a person knows how to write (under very stressful conditions), but it does not demonstrate a student's true essay writing ability (which would be revealed given the right amount of time).

What it is does show is how long a student spent training for the essay, and how much money he/she spent on "official" SAT guides and courses.

Interestingly enough, the producers of the tests once claimed the tests were not coach-able, and are now selling "official" guides and etc. that promise to raise scores... Funny...

[Gods_Mercenary]

Yes, but a good essay does not necessarily require a month to write. A good two-page, five-paragraph essay can be written in two to three hours - time that could surely be spared for the purpose on even a busy person's schedule. Writing an essay in 25 minutes is illogical - it forces one to adapt a formula for pounding out a quick and often mediocre (not necessarily so because of a lack of ability, but rather because of the ridiculous circumstances it must be written under) essay. This deters the creativity which is needed in writing essays. Perhaps the reason for only allowing 25 minutes for writing is to force students to keep the essays short to make it easier for the readers/graders of the essays... If this is the case, it is very sad indeed. To teach so many students to adapt a mechanical method of writing (that could affect their entire life's worth of writing) for the sake of a grader of one test would be awful indeed! I sure hope that this is not the case.

The SAT essay is not creative writing, the vast majority of writing that most peope will do requires little to no creativity, it simply requires them to make a statement and back it up with a few concise points. At any rate, I've never met a teenager who was an amazing writer but couldn't do well under the time constraints, a person's writing ability will come through, even if it isn't as impressive, a great writer will almost always get a 6 unless they haven't been taught the five paragraph essay form, which thy should be anyway. A three hour essay session would lead to more problems than it would solve, fatigue would create poor writing in itself, and would be harder than they already are to get corrected. ?Would you really want to be the guy sitting all day reading pages long essays?

Sure, it may show a person knows how to write

There, you've said it, they're not looking for "true essay writing ability" they just want to judge your abiity to express and back up an idea in writing.

Interestingly enough, the producers of the tests once claimed the tests were not coach-able, and are now selling "official" guides and etc. that promise to raise scores... Funny...

That's because it's false, practice and some instruction obviously prepare you. Plus, guides bought by stressed out teenagers make money, which is what the company's ultimate aim is.

[DragonPaw]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary The SAT essay is not creative writing, the vast majority of writing that most peope will do requires little to no creativity, it simply requires them to make a statement and back it up with a few concise points.

Some creativity is needed to back up arguments. "Creativity" can simply mean finding a way to write the essay in a fashion that will prove the writer's points. For example, deciding how to best structure the essay with points or evidence - perhaps three ideas per body paragraph with each body paragraph focusing on one point of the argument; and three body paragraphs, an introduction, and a conclusion. Structuring an essay requires some creativity which requires some time. Even a standard five-paragraph essay structure needs to be mulled over and molded to fit the ideas that need to be stated, etc.. The time limit on this SAT essay does not allow one to think - the prompt is skimmed over and down goes the pencil to scribble out as much as possible, even nonsense that looks/sounds good.

Yes, the SAT essay has plenty to do with quantity over quality:

Longer essays consistently score higher. Shortly after the test was first administered in March, I looked at scored samples that were made public, including the set used to train graders. I discovered that I could guess an essay's prescribed score just by looking at its length — even from across a room. One verbose sample that received a perfect 6 concluded with the ridiculous sentence: "If secrecy were eradicated, many problems, such as internal division, but also possibly hate, might also be eliminated."

*
by Dr. Les Perelman of M.I.T.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I've never met a teenager who was an amazing writer but couldn't do well under the time constraints, a person's writing ability will come through, even if it isn't as impressive, a great writer will almost always get a 6 unless they haven't been taught the five paragraph essay form, which thy should be anyway.

Is there time to organize and write the five-paragraph essay form? No. There is only time to string together as many sentences as possible into four or five groups of two to three sentences that look like paragraphs - hey, they do not even have to be well written, just long winded with made up facts.

He was also struck by all the factual errors in even the top essays. An essay on the Civil War, given a perfect six, describes the nation being changed forever by the "firing of two shots at Fort Sumter in late 1862." (Actually, it was in early 1861, and, according to "Battle Cry of Freedom" by James M. McPherson, it was "33 hours of bombardment by 4,000 shot and shells.") Dr. Perelman contacted the College Board and was surprised to learn that on the new SAT essay, students are not penalized for incorrect facts... How to prepare for such an essay? "I would advise writing as long as possible," said Dr. Perelman, "and include lots of facts, even if they're made up." This, of course, is not what he teaches his M.I.T. students. "It's exactly what we don't want to teach our kids," he said.

**

It should be about knowing how to write well, not about how to score a six on the SAT essay. College essays have nothing to do with the SAT essay, but high school training for the SAT essay makes it appear so.

A good writer (who knows the "five paragraph essay form") that writes essays the way they should be written would fail the SAT essay without "training" because of a lack of time. Writing a good essay takes some form of planning and proof-reading, which, of course, takes time that the SAT does not allow.

Quote by: DragonPaw Sure, it may show a person knows how to write...

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary There, you've said it

What I meant is that is shows that a student can write, not that they can write well.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary ...they're not looking for "true essay writing ability"

That is a shame then, because a real essay writing ability, not a "SAT essay writing ability" is needed in college.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary That's because it's false, practice and some instruction obviously prepare you. Plus, guides bought by stressed out teenagers make money, which is what the company's ultimate aim is.

That is also a shame. Should a student's admission to a good college/university be so largely based on what a company, whose aim is to make money, says? If this company makes tests in such a way the SAT is made, a way that seems to require training and "official" coaching guides for students to get adequate scores for top schools to even glance at them, it indirectly determines who goes to a SAT-required college and who does not. What if you are a poorer student who cannot afford coaching guides/material (which can cost 750$+)? Doors are closed. Schools that do not like your SAT scores shut their doors on you. Not very fair to the student.

*Les Perelman
**The New York Times > Education > On Education: SAT Essay Test Rewards Length and Ignores Errors