Should weed be legalized?

[another day]

Quote by: Neferiel Firstly, Ashley Johnson is simply an example. an emotional appeal in my speech. reading through your whole post, all you really speak of is marijuana vs alcohol, which i covered in my speech. You talked later on about medical marijuana, and sure, i am not going to condemn its usage in medical and helpful ways. But it does not medically help people who smoke it for entertainment.

Wait... so you just made her up? Dude, they tried that in the 30's... watch a film called reefer madness. That kind of ridiculous emotional exploitation has a name: propaganda.

Marijuana doesn't make you rape people. If anything it reduces sexual drive, it definitely reduces your confidence and it heightens inhibitions, it makes you somewhat paranoid, makes you passive and non-aggressive. It does nothing to make a person more inclined to commit rape, while infact doing many things to make a person less inclined to commit any such acts of aggression. Even a cup of coffee is a better candidate for a precursor to rape.

If a guy were to rape a girl while high on marijuana he would already have been a psychopathic sex offender who does this thing high or not on a regular basis.

If you got full marks for that you must be in the seventh grade.

[MariKine]

Quote by: Neferiel Firstly, Ashley Johnson is simply an example. an emotional appeal in my speech. reading through your whole post, all you really speak of is marijuana vs alcohol, which i covered in my speech. You talked later on about medical marijuana, and sure, i am not going to condemn its usage in medical and helpful ways. But it does not medically help people who smoke it for entertainment.

You didn't even address the real problems with alcohol and marijuana. And you didn't answer how one should be legal, and the other not. :]


(Really, marijuana is a peaceful drug. If anyone's raped by a person high off marijuana, he's probably drunk, or high off something else as well. Someone just stoned, would be too lazy, lol. ^^)


(Oh, I didn't blame him for adding in the Ashley Johnson bit, because I remember my teachers telling me I could lie if I wanted on persuasive articles. :p)

[Neferiel]

....No, i didn't "Make her up". Ashley Johnson really did get raped. i DID use her case as an emotional appeal. When did i ever say or even allude to the fact that i made her up? Marijuana reduces inhibitions, and makes you care less about things. Things you would normally never do. Though, i'm going to stop responding to your "Rebuttals" unless you are going to debate in a manner in which you can refrain from insulting me. I don't think it's too much to ask.

[MariKine]

I didn't insult you?.. Actually I defended you. ;|

[Neferiel]

Mari, why should i have to endorse alcohol, simply because i am not endorsing weed? Like i said in my speech, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because i'm saying the government did a good job making marijuana illegal, (passing the law, that is) does not mean that i think the government did a good job with every law it passed, such as alcohol being legal.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Neferiel Firstly, Ashley Johnson is simply an example. an emotional appeal in my speech. reading through your whole post, all you really speak of is marijuana vs alcohol, which i covered in my speech. You talked later on about medical marijuana, and sure, i am not going to condemn its usage in medical and helpful ways. But it does not medically help people who smoke it for entertainment.

Have you ever been high? Don't knock it till you've tried it.

I don't smoke marijuana, but I think if it's a way to feel good, it can't be all bad.

Fact is probably most of the supposed harmfulness is exaggerated. A good number of people doing it right now and for the past say 30 some years have done it in secret, so if it was causing huge amounts of distress to society it would have reared it's ugly head by now. Alcohol has caused some stress on society, but there is no way to get rid of people being people. When alcohol was prohibited people were making it in their houses, there were all sorts of places you could get it. People like to get high. This is a fact of life. We can't make all people be the same, perfect little creatures that just always tow the line. Just won't ever happen.

I think it should be legalized. It's long overdo. I think less should be available to make people criminals. There are people rotting in jail for marijuana possession. What a waste of humanity.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe Have you ever been high? Don't knock it till you've tried it.

I've had people tell me, " you don't know what you're missing out on" -- but I've tried it and see little reason to try it again.

Some poeple also say pot-smokers are clearly a dangerous menace to society. I see precious little reason to believe that. I think the drug war is the bigger menace.

Grandpa h.

[MariKine]

Yup. Some people don't like marijuana, just like some people don't like drinking, or cigarettes. It's all about personal preference.

I'm not a pushy smoker, infact I'm usually pretty respectful about it all.


Just wish other people would do the same. :[

It's just like, how many people are striving for the legalization of crack? We all know you'd be stupid to smoke that stuff. Marijuana does not compare to any other narcotic.. :/

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Neferiel Mari, why should i have to endorse alcohol, simply because i am not endorsing weed? Like i said in my speech, two wrongs don't make a right.

Right, and for that reasoning to apply, you would have to prove that marijuana is a threat to society.

Let's return to your original argument...

Quote by: Nef Ashley Johnson, a rape victim of a peer who was high on marijuana. “I could smell the weed on his breath, says Ashley “I can still recall the exact tone of his voice as I woke up to him leaning over me in the dark with a knife at my throat. As soon as I opened my eyes, his first words were ‘you’re about to be raped.’ Those words still bring a chill to my body just thinking of them.” This case happened a year ago, and Ashley has required therapy attends rape victim support. Do we want to make marijuana more accessible, and make it even easier for crimes like rape to occur?

Total non sequitur. The fact that the rapist happened to be under the influence of weed doesn’t even come close to proving that the weed caused the rape. It's like saying the rapist was wearing a watch, therefore we should ban watches.

Quote by: Nef NIDA (National Institute on Drug Abuse) says marijuana has been proven to increase risk of heart attack, do brain damage, and can even impair the immune system.

Leaving aside the obvious problem of trusting anything the NIDA says, this is not a sound reason to ban weed. People own their bodies and therefore have the right to harm it in whatever way they choose, provided it doesn’t infringe upon the freedoms of others.

You’re quite right when you say that the right to a pursuit of happiness should never outweigh the right to life. A right is defined as a fundamental freedom, freedom requires choice, and the right to life therefore necessitates the right to die. Hence, each individual has the right to endanger his or her own health to whatever extent he or she sees fit.

Quote by: Nef Another big issue is that American citizens cannot be trusted to use this drug in moderation. Look at the 2001 National Household Survey on Drug Abuse, which shows that 8-10% of the US population is ALREADY under the influence and addicted to alcohol, or tobacco, and you will realize how dangerous giving people another drug is.

Non sequitur again. Marijuana is non-addictive and isn’t nearly as harmful as tobacco and alcohol.

Quote by: Nef Many people say that drug dealers get all the money from marijuana, and at least this way the government would get the tax money. That is faulty reasoning. firstly, we cannot worry about money, when lives may be at stake. secondly, drug dealers also have ecstasy, heroin, etc. the bottom line is, if you take away a child's toy, and they still have 50 more toys they like just as much, they won't be sad, because they still have the others. And really, can we justify legalizing PCP, heroin, or meth, just so we can get a bit more money?

Red herring. We’re not talking about PCP, heroin or meth; we’re talking about a harmless plant. Also, I'd suggest you read up on PCP before categorizing it with heroin and meth.

Quote by: Nef Here are several of the more clichéd arguments for the legalization of marijuana, and also, the reasons why they are faulty. One of the foremost arguments of legalizing this drug is that we can save a great deal on law enforcement, because police would not have to work as hard or at all in situations where marijuana may be involved. However, economics is no reason to endanger our citizens

Again, falsely assumes that marijuana is a danger to society.

Quote by: Nef According to The Drug Information Association, or DIA., the number of users of marijuana is a little less than half the users of alcohol! If that’s the case, then of course there’s going to be more drunk driving incidents than stoned driving incidents because there are more users of that drug.

DUI is another red herring. Not only have numerous studies been consistently unable to prove that marijuana impairs driving ability, there is also evidence that it may make people safer drivers by making them more cautious.

Your speech is simply a collection of emotional appeals, misleading statistics and logical fallacies. Have you ever thought of going into politics?

[grandpa]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Right, and for that reasoning to apply, you would have to prove that marijuana is a threat to society. Let's return to your original argument...

And just about anything can be construed as a "threat to society," which makes it difficult to discuss politics without being a bone-headed liar and hypocrite from time to time.

Grandpa h.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: grandpa I've had people tell me, " you don't know what you're missing out on" -- but I've tried it and see little reason to try it again. Some poeple also say pot-smokers are clearly a dangerous menace to society. I see precious little reason to believe that. I think the drug war is the bigger menace. Grandpa h.

I never cared for marijuana, and can't remember any buzz. I drank a lot of beer, and it was ok, but now it gives me terrible heartburn. Still don't see any harm in getting a buzz.

I agree, the drug war is stupid.

[Neferiel]

Right, and for that reasoning to apply, you would have to prove that marijuana is a threat to society.

Again, falsely assumes that marijuana is a danger to society.

People own their bodies and therefore have the right to harm it in
whatever way they choose, provided it doesn’t infringe upon the freedoms of others.

Hence, each individual has the right to endanger his or her own health to whatever extent he or she sees fit.

Lets look at these all together. in your last statements, you tell me that people own their bodies, and therefore have the right to hurt themselves however they want, provided it doesn't infringe upon others' freedoms. Now, there's obviously no reason to say this unless you agree with my statements below that marijuana does increase risk of heart attack, etc. therefore, the statements above are null, because you admit it is a danger to society. moving on..



Total non sequitur. The fact that the rapist happened to be under the influence of weed doesn’t even come close to proving that the weed caused the rape. It's like saying the rapist was wearing a watch, therefore we should ban watches.

So, Drunk driving accidents aren't because of the alcohol?
Marijuana reduces inhibitions, and makes the user care less about their actions. I'm not saying that marijuana is the devil, it's a horrible awful substance that there is no justification for usage, ever, and i am militantly against it, as so many of you seem to like to tell me. However, it does make the user do things he or she wouldn't normally do, and makes them listen to baser thoughts.



I'd like to elaborate a bit more on this.

People own their bodies and therefore have the right to harm it in whatever way they choose, provided it doesn’t infringe upon the freedoms of others.


Ever heard of a contact high? secondhand smoke? since i've proven, under NIDA's statistics, and you have agreed with me, (see statement above), that means that any contact highs are potentially dangerous as well. meaning, that it-does- infringe on the right to life and pursuit of happiness of others, just looking at basic rights.

Leaving aside the obvious problem of trusting anything the NIDA says, this is not a sound reason to ban weed.

NIDA is one of the best sources you will be able to get in this kind of a debate. it's not a very biased source, stating some beneficial effects of drugs, and some harmful ones. About NIDA here's a link if you'd like to look them up. They're tied in with the government, and everything there is factual.

You’re quite right when you say that the right to a pursuit of happiness should never outweigh the right to life. A right is defined as a fundamental freedom, freedom requires choice, and the right to life therefore necessitates the right to die. Hence, each individual has the right to endanger his or her own health to whatever extent he or she sees fit.

Under the social contracts, the government has an obligation to protect its citizens, regardless of whether the citizen wants it or not. IE, New york's ban on transfats.

Non sequitur again. Marijuana is non-addictive and isn’t nearly as harmful as tobacco and alcohol.
Isn't nearly as harmful, but still harmful, going back and looking at NIDA's statistics again, we can see just how harmful it is.


Red herring. We’re not talking about PCP, heroin or meth; we’re talking about a harmless plant. Also, I'd suggest you read up on PCP before categorizing it with heroin and meth.
Actually, this is an argument talking about why it's ridiculous to argue that "We'd be getting the money instead of drug dealers in weed was legalized" I'd suggest you read the post you're supposed to be refuting





DUI is another red herring. Not only have numerous studies been consistently unable to prove that marijuana impairs driving ability, there is also evidence that it may make people safer drivers by making them more cautious.
I'd like some proof on this bit, please.



Your speech is simply a collection of emotional appeals, misleading statistics and logical fallacies. Have you ever thought of going into politics?

one emotional appeal (need i remind you this was for school, not debate?) misleading? Hardly. they're true.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Technosoul No, I got a bunch of weeds that just came into my yard without permisson and occupied my lawn. Illegal imigrants thats what they are. Not citizens of my property. And I would not make them legal citizens because they are not green enough. Off with their heads!

oh, you are talking about pot. Opps, I thought this was about weeds.

I think pot should be legal but I cannot remember why I believe that.

It used to be kinda fun back when they had organic pot, because it was not legal and yet the cops did not really have a drug war because then pot was socially acceptable, along with the Hippy philosophy and the momentum of that sub-culture. And the product had nothing to do with gangsters fighting each other over truf rights. And it was nearly free.
It was part of the peace and love thing then.

If it was legal for recreational use then it would no longer represent being anti-establishment or freedom from conforming to that establishment. It would become a Walmart product, so to speak. Just another product like beer or tobacco.

That would in turn put crack at the top of the list for "underworld" substances, or some new designer drug.

Better if pot remained somewhat unlawful, but better if the drug war also turned a blind eye to it's use and lost interest in arresting everyone who has a joint. Perhaps that can be done by a reduction in the fine so that it would not be economically profitable for the government and the police to enforce the law banning that product. No more jail time for growing or using pot. Unless a car accident was the result. For example it is unlawful to play poker for money where gambling is not allowed without governmental permisson. but we do not spend millions to raid homes nor do we have a big "war on poker games". We need to downsize it's status as a criminal activity.

[Roxdog]

Quote by: gela If marijuana is supported simply because 'the government has no right to decide what gos into my body' Then you also must support the legalisation of harder drugs.

Yup. People can kill themselves if they want, the US Consitution gives no one the authority to regulate what people put inside their bodies. That is basically where the argument ends.

This is America.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Nef Lets look at these all together. in your last statements, you tell me that people own their bodies, and therefore have the right to hurt themselves however they want, provided it doesn't infringe upon others' freedoms. Now, there's obviously no reason to say this unless you agree with my statements below

Not true. An argument can be refuted on many levels.

Quote by: Nef that marijuana does increase risk of heart attack, etc. therefore, the statements above are null, because you admit it is a danger to society.

No, the statistics, assuming they’re credible, prove that weed is a danger to the individual using it. This needn’t have any effect on society.

Quote by: Nef Marijuana reduces inhibitions, and makes the user care less about their actions. I'm not saying that marijuana is the devil, it's a horrible awful substance that there is no justification for usage, ever, and i am militantly against it, as so many of you seem to like to tell me. However, it does make the user do things he or she wouldn't normally do, and makes them listen to baser thoughts.

Evidence?

Quote by: Nef Ever heard of a contact high?

Yes. It’s a phenomenon which has never been proven.

Quote by: Nef secondhand smoke?

A tiny risk of heart attack caused by directly smoking marijuana does not translate into a risk for those breathing second hand smoke. Any toxicologist will tell you that dose is the main factor in toxicity.

Quote by: Nef NIDA is one of the best sources you will be able to get in this kind of a debate. it's not a very biased source, stating some beneficial effects of drugs, and some harmful ones. About NIDA here's a link if you'd like to look them up. They're tied in with the government,

That’s the problem.

As it happens, I found the study to which you were referring, and your claim was incorrect. The heart disease risk applies only to smoking marijuana; not to all forms of use as you suggested.

Quote by: Nef Under the social contracts, the government has an obligation to protect its citizens, regardless of whether the citizen wants it or not. IE, New york's ban on transfats.

What you describe is not a right to life; it’s an obligation to life. The Bill of Rights specifies a right to life, which must, by definition, include the right to death.

Quote by: nef Isn't nearly as harmful, but still harmful, going back and looking at NIDA's statistics again, we can see just how harmful it is.

You mentioned addiction which doesn’t apply to weed and you also made a direct comparison to alcohol and tobacco, when neither of the two are in the same league as weed in terms of physical harm. Hence, the comparison is not valid.

Quote by: Nef Actually, this is an argument talking about why it's ridiculous to argue that "We'd be getting the money instead of drug dealers in weed was legalized"

Actually, the part I quoted was a comparison between legalising weed for the economic benefits and legalising heroin for the same reason. A direct comparison between the rights and wrongs of legalising weed and legalising heroin is not valid.

Quote by: Nef I'd like some proof on this bit, please.

There are a large number of studies on the issue here:

Cannabis and Driving Skills Studies

Quote by: Nef misleading? Hardly. they're true.

Mari has already shown that your FDA statistic was extremely misleading.

[MariKine]

Once again, I really don't think the FDA statistics can even be used in the argument when it sits there and says.

"The information contained in the reports has not been scientifically or otherwise verified. For any given report there is no certainty that the suspected drug caused the reaction. This is because physicians are encouraged to report suspected reactions. The event may have been related to the underlying disease for which the drug was given to concurrent drugs being taken or may have occurred by chance at the same time the suspected drug was taken."


I really think people are still anti-marijuana, because it's just something to fight against. And it's silly. It's a plant, that grows straight out of the ground, and all you do is pluck the buds off the plant, dry them out, and smoke them, or even eat them. There's no added ingredients. (Most of the time. And I do have a problem with people that lace weed, not that it really happens that much when it's being sold.) It just grows like that. You can even cancel out the smoke inhalation, by simply buying a vaporizor. (Vaporizors basically heat the marijuana, without burning the actual plant material, so all you inhale is THC. Probably the cleanest, nicest high possible.)

People keep saying that nothing's going to change, and it's never going to be legalized.. yet medical marijuana is already becoming accepted in several states, even if the federal government doesn't recognize it. It's just a matter of time. :]

[Roxdog]

Quote by: Halofan48 Look, yes alcohol and tobacco are legalized, along with fire arms. Why? Lobbyists and the like. Sure, there hasn't been many accidents where marijuana is involved, but that's because it IS illegal and not many people are going to go out while stoned due to the risk of getting caught. We suffer from so many alcohol related accidents due to the fact that it IS legal. Also, for the lawyers you claim have argued their cases while stoned, did they win those cases? also what were the cases about. Provide evidence supporting your claim that they were stoned too. Also, many people won't do something if it's illegal. That's why not as many people die from it. But if someone is able to buy as many joints as cigarettes without the risk of arrest, then the death tolls would sky rocket.

I think that saying 1% of what you stated is factual would be a generous assessment. The 2nd amendment wasn't created by "lobbyists". Sorry...

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: MariKine People keep saying that nothing's going to change, and it's never going to be legalized.. yet medical marijuana is already becoming accepted in several states, even if the federal government doesn't recognize it. It's just a matter of time. :]

I agree, but it's taking too long. It's stupid to keep it illegal.

[nm420]

Quote by: Neferiel Ashley Johnson, a rape victim of a peer who was high on marijuana. “I could smell the weed on his breath, says Ashley “I can still recall the exact tone of his voice as I woke up to him leaning over me in the dark with a knife at my throat. As soon as I opened my eyes, his first words were ‘you’re about to be raped.’ Those words still bring a chill to my body just thinking of them.” This case happened a year ago, and Ashley has required therapy attends rape victim support. Do we want to make marijuana more accessible, and make it even easier for crimes like rape to occur?

Wow, I never knew that if I get unbelievably high my inhibitions would be so decimated I would have no problem with raping someone. Who knows, maybe I've done so already; you know my memory is just filled with holes from all the pot I've smoked.

It's no small feat to insult me, yet the implication that pot has even the slightest potential to turn me into a rapist I find downright disgusting. Whoever the person is that raped this Ashley Johnson is a rapist, and there's not much more to be said about it. It doesn't matter if he's a pothead or a sot, or Catholic or Jew, or white or black, or practically much of anything.

I suppose such an "emotional appeal" argument shouldn't be too surprising coming from someone who believes NIDA would never engage in deception. If you're truly interested in this matter, here's some suggested reading material:

Lies, Damned Lies and Drug War Statistics

It's actually well-researched and explains the horrible fallacies behind many of NIDA's so-called "statistics".

[Halofan48]

O, for the legalization of harder drugs, people high on acid or the like have killed people, children (including their own) and have done illegal things. Heck, a guy in my Website Design class was chased by his high cousin on a 4 wheeler trying to kill him. The story is a bit long, but his cousin got high on acid, freaked out on him, tried to hit him with a guitar, so he locked himself in the garage for 4 hours (he watched the clock), then sped off on a 4 wheeler and then saw his cousin swinging a bat with nails in it while driving on his 4 wheeler. Long story. But the point is, drugs can cause serious problems for not just the user.