Duping Drivers to Raise Revenue?

[Milton Bradley]

Red light camera monkey business may be a national trend

Red light camera monkey business may be a national trend
By Joel Hruska | Published: April 13, 2008

Red-light cameras are often billed as a great way to improve traffic safety and prevent speeding. A few cities across America, however, have been caught short-timing their own yellow lights below legal levels, in what may be an attempt to boost ticket revenues by giving drivers less time to come to a stop. So how many anecdotes do you need to pronounce something a trend? It's hard to say, especially when the anecdotes in question support the abolishment of something as universally hated as the red light camera. Six possible red light "gotcha" stories, some of which go back as far as 2005, were originally reported by theNewspaper, but were compiled into a single list of events by motorists.org. One city, Chatanooga, TN, has been forced to repay the $8,800 it collected in ticket revenue, while investigations in Dallas, Texas and Springfield, Missouri, have uncovered evidence of similar practices, although no charges have been filed.

Precisely the type of discriminatory bullshit I suspect the Fuzz in this area are doing.


Bastards!


Is there no limit to the type of petty BS we are expected to put with from government, while we quitely tow the line?


If it's discovered that these traps were ordered, then I think a fitting pinishment would be to act as a traffic cop, perfoming the function of traffic light.

[Domino]

If the traps were ordered, a fitting punishment would start with being fired, barred from future civil service, and perhaps further fines or imprisonment. Someone in a position of public trust broke the law, in such a way as to harm many people. Imo, these are the worst criminals.

[HelioPrime]

Sad a few city departments decide to try and take advantage of a perfectly good system.

Traffic cams are great, they could potentially save every city money by catching drivers with a photo rather than a cop who has to spend time and gas money watching people.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Domino If the traps were ordered, a fitting punishment would start with being fired, barred from future civil service, and perhaps further fines or imprisonment. Someone in a position of public trust broke the law, in such a way as to harm many people. Imo, these are the worst criminals.

I agree, and probably wrongly assumed most people responding would be well aware that my suggestion was to be in addition to what should be an obvious punishment.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: HelioPrime Sad a few city departments decide to try and take advantage of a perfectly good system. Traffic cams are great, they could potentially save every city money by catching drivers with a photo rather than a cop who has to spend time and gas money watching people.

The thing is, I don't think this is isolated, or uncommon. Hell, in some of Toledos suburbs, they time the traffic lights so that you cannot possibly avoid stopping at each light without speeding. That's basically a primitive form of mental torture. ( Assuming you know what it's like to commute. )


Also, like the other examples, they have all the new technology that would allow them to manipulate these timed intervals on the fly. ( The sensors were installed to allow ambulances to alter the traffic signals at critical intersections. )


I suspect now that the Police have hacked the codes, and manipulate the timing of traffic signals to justify traffic stops.


It's the emerging Police State.

[Chaossaber314]

Though wrong, it's not the emerging police state. It's on local/municipal level with some asshats taking advantage. It's completely wrong and dangerous to shorten yellow lights so much, but unless you have proof of a widescale conspiracy of some sort with money going to the upper levels of government you're jumping the gun.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: HelioPrime Sad a few city departments decide to try and take advantage of a perfectly good system. Traffic cams are great, they could potentially save every city money by catching drivers with a photo rather than a cop who has to spend time and gas money watching people.

Except that the evidence shows they aren't great. There have been some fantastic articles by Car and Driver lately in which they have cited scientific studies proving that accidents at red-light-camera intersections increase after the cameras are installed.

Conversely, they have found that the best way to make intersections safer is to increase the yellow time to on the order of 5-6 seconds. This is logical: There will always be a very small number of people who run lights for idiotic reasons, and no camera or anything else will stop them. The vast majority of drivers would never intentionally run a red light, and so increasing the warning they have that a red is coming allows them to abide by the law as they are trying to do.

All the articles are available online, just go to their site and search "red-light cameras".

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Except that the evidence shows they aren't great. There have been some fantastic articles by Car and Driver lately in which they have cited scientific studies proving that accidents at red-light-camera intersections increase after the cameras are installed. Conversely, they have found that the best way to make intersections safer is to increase the yellow time to on the order of 5-6 seconds. This is logical: There will always be a very small number of people who run lights for idiotic reasons, and no camera or anything else will stop them. The vast majority of drivers would never intentionally run a red light, and so increasing the warning they have that a red is coming allows them to abide by the law as they are trying to do. All the articles are available online, just go to their site and search "red-light cameras".

You realize that doesn't make sense?

And even if accidents to increase then thats just an increase in accidents. If the timing of the lights is left the same then just taking a photo from behind DOES not cause accidents. How can it?

The only accidents causes might be from altering the timing between yellow and red in which case thats clearly a problem being caused to increase revenue.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: HelioPrime You realize that doesn't make sense?

Why doesn't it make sense?

And even if accidents to increase then thats just an increase in accidents. If the timing of the lights is left the same then just taking a photo from behind DOES not cause accidents. How can it?

Because the presence of the camera system alters drivers' behavior. The intersections with cameras are publicly known and marked, and drivers change their habits at them.

Just the same way that everyone does the speed limit when driving past a police officer and then immediately speeds back up to a reasonable speed.

[caphis]

Because the presence of the camera system alters drivers' behavior.

In such a way as to make them have more frequent accidents? Hard to prove that one.

I think Milton Bradley's on to something, though.

Quote by: tivodan116 Conversely, they have found that the best way to make intersections safer is to increase the yellow time to on the order of 5-6 seconds.

Well, if the story in the OP is true, then maybe the reason for the increase in accident rates isn't the cameras, but the reduction of the yellow time. If increasing yellow time can lower accident rates, it sounds reasonable to me that lowering it might contribute to more accidents.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: caphis In such a way as to make them have more frequent accidents? Hard to prove that one.

Easy to prove. Simply count the accidents at intersections before and after. What else has changed but the addition of the camera?

To wit:

Robot Revenuing: Shots Were Fired - Column/Patrick Bedard/C/D Staff/Columns/Features/Car and Driver - Car And Driver

Quote by: Car and Driver A report last year, funded by the Federal Highway Administration and the Virginia Department of Transportation, said that “cameras were associated with an increase in total crashes.” Six Virginia cities with red-light cameras were studied. Injury crashes were down five percent in one and up from six to 89 percent in the others. Rear-enders were up in all the cities, by 136 percent in Falls Church and 139 percent in Arlington. Crashes were up in Stockton, California, too, from an average of 14 per year before to more than 20 per year in the 2004–6 period, after red-light cameras were installed. Same story in Seattle, where crashes rose from 4.94 per intersection before to 5.25 after cameras were installed at four intersections.

[caphis]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Easy to prove. Simply count the accidents at intersections before and after. What else has changed but the addition of the camera?

Assuming that all other conditions remained the same during the study- weather, traffic volume, other drivers, etc.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: caphis Assuming that all other conditions remained the same during the study- weather, traffic volume, other drivers, etc.

Did you read the article and my quote? The study was done by the Federal Highway Administration and VA DOT. I think they're capable of studying traffic patterns accurately.