With regards to abortion, Who's rights are more important .. women or foetuses?

[marijuanajake]

Is is just as much human as you or me. To have an abortion is murder.

[Matt]

Quote by: Anmon Is this about the rabbits Matt? I don't care its innocent human life being treated like garbage, you paint a pretty pic of abortion, but the suction technique they use that crushes the fetus up and sucks it out, is anything but.

The baby can probably feel nothing, nor does it really think. We give rights to things that can say they don't want to be killed (or, for example, a just born baby can't say "Don't kill me", so its parents, who do have rights can say that for the baby). Animals don't have rights since they can't say, for example, "Don't kill me" or "Don't hit me", same with a fetuse, though they would have much less thinking capability then a rabbit. So if we judge what's ok to kill and what's not by it's feeling and thinking abilities (which we do), its more humane to kill a fetuse then a rabbit.

[Anmon]

So you place a rabbit above a developing human being, good to see you have your priority's in order.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Matt The baby can probably feel nothing, nor does it really think. We give rights to things that can say they don't want to be killed (or, for example, a just born baby can't say "Don't kill me", so its parents, who do have rights can say that for the baby).

Is this your understanding of rights? If a child's parent kills it, the parent is guilty of murder. The paren't doesn't get to decide if their child has the right to live or not until the child is old enough to speak for itself. Your rights aren't based on your ability to think or to speak, they are based on the fact that you are a human being.

[Matt]

Quote by: Anmon So you place a rabbit above a developing human being, good to see you have your priority's in order.

We all have different opinions...can you handle that? My point was, with our reason to kill things or not (judged on the intelligence of that thing or its pain level that thing will experience), its more humane to kill a fetuse then a rabbit. A fetuse has no sense of life, no thinking capabilities in most cases, nor can it feel pain. A rabbit can think, can feel pain, and is aware that it is alive. Humans are extreme speciest, so alot of us put more value on a fetuse then a rabbit, even though science would contradict that.

Quote by: Pale RIder Is this your understanding of rights? If a child's parent kills it, the parent is guilty of murder. The paren't doesn't get to decide if their child has the right to live or not until the child is old enough to speak for itself. Your rights aren't based on your ability to think or to speak, they are based on the fact that you are a human being.

I've read books about rights, the reason humans have rights is we can communicate what we want or what we don't want. Animals can, not in our languages though, so thats why they don't have rights, which I find sort of stupid. Though a fetuse can't communicate in any way, at all. A fetuse in most cases is probably a plant, it can't feel pain and it can't think.

[Anmon]

=Matt;497547]We all have different opinions...can you handle that?

Funny, I've being trying to get that message across to the pro choicers.

My point was, with our reason to kill things or not (judged on the intelligence of that thing or its pain level that thing will experience), its more humane to kill a fetuse then a rabbit. A fetuse has no sense of life, no thinking capabilities in most cases, nor can it feel pain. A rabbit can think, can feel pain, and is aware that it is alive. Humans are extreme speciest, so alot of us put more value on a fetuse then a rabbit, even though science would contradict that.

So your reasoning on killing different things places them in order of importance, solely based on whether they can feel pain or not.
What evidence do you base your statements on fetus not being able to feel any pain, or being unaware their alive or not?

[Matt]

Quote by: Anmon Funny, I've being trying to get that message across to the pro choicers. So your reasoning on killing different things places them in order of importance, solely based on whether they can feel pain or not. What evidence do you base your statements on fetus not being able to feel any pain, or being unaware their alive or not?

Not all based on if they can feel pain...also what they can think. If I asked you if you would rather kill a 10 yo child or a cat, who would you kill? I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but please tell, truthfully.

For alot of the time, fetuses are basically a clump of cells, cells don't think. Also...do you see the fetuse communicating? No, you don't. The fetuse can turn into something great yes, but at the point it would be killed in the womb, its no better killing a snake then it.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Matt I've read books about rights, the reason humans have rights is we can communicate what we want or what we don't want. Animals can, not in our languages though, so thats why they don't have rights, which I find sort of stupid. Though a fetuse can't communicate in any way, at all. A fetuse in most cases is probably a plant, it can't feel pain and it can't think.

A newborn has absolutely no ability to say what it wants or have any conception of a right to live. It has that right and it does not come from its parents. If the child comes to harm through neglect or abuse, its rights have been violated and the parents must answer for it. Telling the court that they are the source of the child's rights would result in a quick and painful explanation to them that the child's rights are its own because it is a human being.

[Halofan48]

Here's the difference, a fetus can't communicate with us in anyway until it is born.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Halofan48 Here's the difference, a fetus can't communicate with us in anyway until it is born.

One does not need to communicate in order to have rights. One also doesn't need to exercise rights in order to still posess them.

Children born with no brain are considered to be human beings even though during their short lives they have no more ability to communicate than an unborn at any stage. They have the right to live so they may not be simply killed. It isn't your ability to communicate, or even the fact that you might communicate that is the basis for your rights. Your basic human rights are yours because you are a human being and nothing more.

[Matt]

Quote by: Pale RIder One does not need to communicate in order to have rights. One also doesn't need to exercise rights in order to still posess them. Children born with no brain are considered to be human beings even though during their short lives they have no more ability to communicate than an unborn at any stage. They have the right to live so they may not be simply killed. It isn't your ability to communicate, or even the fact that you might communicate that is the basis for your rights. Your basic human rights are yours because you are a human being and nothing more.

Then if one does not need to communicate to have to have rights...we should give every single rabbit rights, shouldn't we?

Fetuses don't have rights that say "Don't abort me or you are going to jail for 25 years" do they? People do, they don't. They don't because they are nothing more then cells for alot of the time.

[Maryjane]

they are based on the fact that you are a human being.

a viable human being...

b. (of a fetus) having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Halofan48 Here's the difference, a fetus can't communicate with us in anyway until it is born.

deaf and dumb people cant communicate with us well either, or people with Alzheimer's, maybe we should kill them too?

[Halofan48]

they can communicate. They can speak in someways. Or perhaps sign language. The difference with a fetus is that it cannot communicate until born.

[Anmon]

Its not a fetus until its born.. thats bizarre to think its a fetus until its born and then suddenly its a baby.
And they can communicate with their mothers, with movements, there would be some form of contact between the baby and the mother, as the baby develops more while in the womb.

[Matt]

Quote by: anmon deaf and dumb people cant communicate with us well either, or people with Alzheimer's, maybe we should kill them too?

Explain how deaf people can't communicate with us well? Some can talk, most use sign language, which means they can communicate. Also, body language can happen too.

People with Alzheimers may have trouble communicating, but they still can with body language. Depends on the level of it.

Quote by: anmon Its not a fetus until its born.. thats bizarre to think its a fetus until its born and then suddenly its a baby. And they can communicate with their mothers, with movements, there would be some form of contact between the baby and the mother, as the baby develops more while in the womb.

How are those movements communications? The fetuse is just moving around in the womb.

[Maryjane]

Quote: Quote by: Anmon Not everything is good, but everything is there for a reason, everything has a purpose, bad or good.

Using your quote from another thread...does this not apply to abortion as well?

[Anmon]

=Matt;497826]Explain how deaf people can't communicate with us well? Some can talk, most use sign language, which means they can communicate. Also, body language can happen too.

OK I'll let you have that one.

How are those movements communications? The fetuse is just moving around in the womb.

The mother can feel it, so its a connection.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Maryjane Using your quote from another thread...does this not apply to abortion as well?

Possibly, it still doesn't change that aborting your kid for your own convenience or your partners, or both, isn't right.

[Matt]

Quote by: Anmon OK I'll let you have that one. The mother can feel it, so its a connection.

Communication means something is being meant to be communicated, not just a kick. Also, communication means the person, in this case the mother, actually has a slight idea of what the other party (fetuse) is trying to say.