With regards to abortion, Who's rights are more important .. women or foetuses?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Halofan48 He's a pro-lifer. One problem with the "put them up for adoption" argument, is that really, with an increase of children in the adoption/foster home system and no large increase of people willing to adopt would likely mean that most of the children who would of been aborted would live terrible lives.

There are waiting lists years long for infants. It is older children who are more difficult to adopt out.

The pro choice side seems to think that if abortion is banned that every woman who has an unplanned pregnancy will give the child up for adoption. That line of reasoning doesn't hold water. The fact is that most of us are the result of unplanned pregnancies. Many women plan on giving children up for adoption through their entire pregnancy and when it comes time to hand them over, they find that they have quite unintentionally fallen in love with their child. You can rationally expect the same sort of thing to happen in most cases if abortion becomes very restricted.

[Maryjane]

You can rationally expect the same sort of thing to happen in most cases if abortion becomes very restricted.

True and you can also expect a lot of self induced botched abortions leading to the death of both mother and child.

[Maryjane]

Quote by: Anmon Why, whats wrong with being a good example to others with good thoughts and actions?

Oh I don't know Anmom...I bought the two chainsaws I own and I didn't steal any of my employers property when I walked off the job.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Maryjane True and you can also expect a lot of self induced botched abortions leading to the death of both mother and child.

Exactly how much should I worry about people who injure or kill themselves while attempting to kill another human being for reasons that amount to no more than convenience?

[Maryjane]

As I already stated, I don't think it's any of your business to begin with.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Matt Well...what side are you on?

Pro life.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Maryjane Oh I don't know Anmom...I bought the two chainsaws I own and I didn't steal any of my employers property when I walked off the job.

I was justified in my actions, he deserved what he got.
Would you stay in a job after you had been lied too?

[Anmon]

Quote by: Maryjane As I already stated, I don't think it's any of your business to begin with.

It is, because you are advocating abortion for any reason as having no problems or detrimental effects on society.
No we don't live with you, we don't have a relationship with you, but we do share the same western society, and your views have a flow on effect to the rest of us, and a lot of us are not really taken with the way you view life as just a cheap commodity, something to throw away like rubbish when its not convenient.

[Morality Games]

Put them together, however, and all of their potential is realized. You have a living human being from the time fertilization is complete. From that point, you have a potential doctor, or musician, or serial killer, but not a potential human being.

Being is an ongoing process undertaken by all objects in existence -- hence the phrase, "the TV is being repaired" -- use of the term 'being' is valid even with reference to inanimate objects, not just living organisms. It follows that there are essentially no differences in logic between the phrases 'being human' and 'human being'. Both refer to an activity entities are going through (the activity of existing in some fashion, whether it be 'in repair' or otherwise).

There is no doubt fetuses exist, but discussion of them having rights is only reasonable if they fulfill the qualifications of being human -- that is, having an ego, intellect, will, instinct, and imagination. Since the reality of these things is impossible without a nervous system, it cannot be sensibly said fetuses have a right to life which trumps the right of the ego, intellect, will, instinct, and imagination possessing women to choose.

A person is the kind of creature you are, not the degree to which you have manifested your potential.

You are working with a fallacious metaphysical paradigm and logically unsound vocabulary.

[Maryjane]

Quote by: Anmon I was justified in my actions, he deserved what he got. Would you stay in a job after you had been lied too?

Do you bother to read my posts or do you just have a comprehension problem?

I walked off the job after giving my employer ample time to negotiate a pay increase as indicated by company policy. I packed up my tools and left. I didn't take anything that wasn't mine. What you did was steal some one else's property. Couple that with your ill thoughts about your employer. Nice example of what it means to be a christian. What happened to turn the other cheek?

(In my case, my employer has been to my house several times since I walked out. They recently gave me a 32 inch television set becuse we are still on good terms, I just won't work for them again....their loss, not mine)
But we seem to have gone off topic.

[Maryjane]

Quote by: Anmon It is, because you are advocating abortion for any reason as having no problems or detrimental effects on society. No we don't live with you, we don't have a relationship with you, but we do share the same western society, and your views have a flow on effect to the rest of us, and a lot of us are not really taken with the way you view life as just a cheap commodity, something to throw away like rubbish when its not convenient.

The topic is who's rights are more important is it not? I feel the woman has more rights. I'm not advocating killing anyone, I'm just debating the question.

You want to talk about flow and effect? What if that woman has to go on welfare to support that child? Are you going to be one of those that bitch about having to pay taxes to support her and the kid?

You of all people need to look in the mirror when it comes to talking about life being cheap. You don't seem to have a problem killing people once they are OUT of the womb. What's the big deal when they are in it? You advocate blowing up people, hacking them to death, or slicing their heads off. Sounds a lot like D&C if you ask me. Maybe you don't like it because for once it's a woman's choice?

[Anmon]

=Maryjane;497249]Do you bother to read my posts or do you just have a comprehension problem?

I read your posts fine, I cant see what your blowing up for?

I walked off the job after giving my employer ample time to negotiate a pay increase as indicated by company policy.

um yeah it wasn't like that with this job, no union or rights, just handshake savvy?

I didn't take anything that wasn't mine.

Yeah well he took my trust and stomped on it, but thats fine with you of course.

What you did was steal some one else's property.

whoopy, he was a bastard.

Couple that with your ill thoughts about your employer.

yeah how dare I think unpleasant things about someone like that.

Nice example of what it means to be a christian.

Do you think so? I would have though the opposite.

What happened to turn the other cheek?

I'm more of an old testament kind of Christian when it comes to bastards.
The only time I turn the other cheek is to reach for another can of whoop ass!

In my case, my employer has been to my house several times since I walked out.

hello nudge nudge say no more!

They recently gave me a 32 inch television set becuse we are still on good terms, I just won't work for them again....their loss, not mine)

Well your hard to please.

But we seem to have gone off topic.

So stop doing it.

[Anmon]

=Maryjane;497251]The topic is who's rights are more important is it not? I feel the woman has more rights. I'm not advocating killing anyone, I'm just debating the question.

What about the unborns rights, don't you think they should be considered?
Women always go on about how insensitive men are, our lack of feelings, and empathy, but you guys are monsters compared to us, you slaughter your own unborn as coldly and cruelly as if your just taking out the rubbish.

You want to talk about flow and effect? What if that woman has to go on welfare to support that child? Are you going to be one of those that bitch about having to pay taxes to support her and the kid?

Don't have sex then if you don't think your financially capable of looking after a kid, I would rather see welfare women get off their lazy fat butts and work, so I don't have to pay taxes, its always moan this moan that, the truth is welfare mums are just usually fat lazy cows who want to sit around and watch telly all day and talk to their fat lazy cow friends on the phone.

You of all people need to look in the mirror when it comes to talking about life being cheap. You don't seem to have a problem killing people once they are OUT of the womb.

Yes but in the womb life is innocent, defenseless, and out of the womb is a bit of a sweeping statement.

You advocate blowing up people, hacking them to death, or slicing their heads off.

lol wheres your sense of humour?

Sounds a lot like D&C if you ask me.

And what is D&C?

Maybe you don't like it because for once it's a woman's choice?

LOL its always a womans choice! Go look at the average house, everything chosen by the woman, the car what the kids wear, food everything, don't feed me garbage about women not deciding anything.
Maybe you don't like it because its a mans choice too.

[Morality Games]

Yes but in the womb life is innocent, defenseless, and out of the womb is a bit of a sweeping statement.

You have never managed to get around the fact we are talking about the mental equivalent of a rock.

A thought: if fetuses are comparable to developed humans in the eyes of a Supreme Being who values life, then why do roughly half of them die naturally? It seems abnormally cruel of the supposedly pleasant post-Jesus God to smite countless innocent souls on a yearly basis while they are just embarking on the outset of their life, not to mention inconsistent with the view his followers expound on earth.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Morality Games There is no doubt fetuses exist, but discussion of them having rights is only reasonable if they fulfill the qualifications of being human -- that is, having an ego, intellect, will, instinct, and imagination. Since the reality of these things is impossible without a nervous system, it cannot be sensibly said fetuses have a right to life which trumps the right of the ego, intellect, will, instinct, and imagination possessing women to choose.

Ego, intellect, will, instinct, etc are characteristics that human beings posess, but they are not what make a human being. This is evidenced by the fact that one with a larger ego, stronger will, sharper instincts, more imagination, etc is not "more" human than one with lesser ego, will, instincts, imagination etc. There is nothing you can do to make yourself more human just as there is nothing you can do to make yourself less human. Human is what you are and what you have been since the time you were concieved.

Human being is the kind of creature you are, not the degree to which you manifest your potential.

Quote by: Morality Games You are working with a fallacious metaphysical paradigm and logically unsound vocabulary.

Easy to say, but pardon me if I don't just take your word for it.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Morality Games You have never managed to get around the fact we are talking about the mental equivalent of a rock.

Mental capacity is not what makes you human. One with an IQ of 195 is no more human and has no more right to live than one with an IQ of 25. Both are equally human and both have an equal right to live. Children born with no forebrain that never have a single thought are exactly as human as you and they can not simply be killed because they have the right to live. True, they often die after a very few days, but letting die is quite different from killing.

Quote by: Morality Games A thought: if fetuses are comparable to developed humans in the eyes of a Supreme Being who values life, then why do roughly half of them die naturally?

We all die. When is irrelavent.

[Maryjane]

Quote by: Anmon I read your posts fine, I cant see what your blowing up for? um yeah it wasn't like that with this job, no union or rights, just handshake savvy? Yeah well he took my trust and stomped on it, but thats fine with you of course. whoopy, he was a bastard. yeah how dare I think unpleasant things about someone like that. Do you think so? I would have though the opposite. I'm more of an old testament kind of Christian when it comes to bastards. The only time I turn the other cheek is to reach for another can of whoop ass! hello nudge nudge say no more! Well your hard to please. So stop doing it.

Let me know when you can handle debating like a mature adult.

[Matt]

Quote by: Anmon It is, because you are advocating abortion for any reason as having no problems or detrimental effects on society. No we don't live with you, we don't have a relationship with you, but we do share the same western society, and your views have a flow on effect to the rest of us, and a lot of us are not really taken with the way you view life as just a cheap commodity, something to throw away like rubbish when its not convenient.

Do I sense a case of the pot calling the kettle black? You don't seem to have that much respect for innocent life and you pretty much throw it away.

Fetuses (probably for the good precentage of time in the womb) don't really have brain power (if they do...very minor). Yes, they may get brain power if they do not get aborted and grow into humans, but most likely if they are aborted...the fetuse wont go threw any pain, and they wont know anything happened...they are pretty much lumps of cells if they are aborted early.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Maryjane Let me know when you can handle debating like a mature adult.

Good coming from someone who just wanted to nitpick to begin with.
pot kettle.

[Anmon]

=Matt;497322]Do I sense a case of the pot calling the kettle black? You don't seem to have that much respect for innocent life and you pretty much throw it away.

Is this about the rabbits Matt?

Fetuses (probably for the good precentage of time in the womb) don't really have brain power (if they do...very minor). Yes, they may get brain power if they do not get aborted and grow into humans, but most likely if they are aborted...the fetuse wont go threw any pain, and they wont know anything happened...they are pretty much lumps of cells if they are aborted early.

I don't care its innocent human life being treated like garbage, you paint a pretty pic of abortion, but the suction technique they use that crushes the fetus up and sucks it out, is anything but.