With regards to abortion, Who's rights are more important .. women or foetuses?

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: LadiesMan217 I think they would generally prefer that to being dead.

Yeah, years of child abuse and negelect akin to torture are definitely preferable.

[Walrus]

Quote by: Pale RIder All killing comes down to the conscience of an individual and yet, we have no problem at all making the killing of post natals illegal. Human beings have a right to live. Calling an immature human being a fetus does not change the fact that it is still a human being. The right to live is a human righ. Can you prove that unborns are not human beings?

Why would I want to prove something that I haven’t claimed?

[Anmon]

Quote by: Pale RIder Sperm has no possibility at all of becoming a child. Alone, a sperm cell is of no more consequence than your fingernail clippings. It will never become anything more than it is.

A sperm and an egg if meeting each other will become a human being, a fingernail meeting a sperm or an egg will not, your comparison is a poor one to say the least.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Anmon A sperm and an egg if meeting each other will become a human being, a fingernail meeting a sperm or an egg will not, your comparison is a poor one to say the least.

Did you not understand what I said? Sperm alone is of no more consequence than your fingernail clippings. The idea that masturbation somehow kills untold millions of "potential" human beings expresses a complete ignorance of developmental biology.

You prove my point when you say that sperm meeting a fingernail will amount to exactly nothing. Without an egg sperm is completely unimportant and without sperm, an egg is completely unimportant. Each is nothing more and nothing less than a cell from the body from which it came. Once they get together however, their potential is realized and you have a living human being.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Walrus Why would I want to prove something that I haven’t claimed?

You seemed to be begging the question and assuming that the term "fetus" describes something other than a human being. Clearly both our societies have decided that human beings have the right to live and unborns, at any stage are most certainly human beings.

[Nemesis]

Quote by: Anmon But you do exist, so you do know.

So what. If I didn't exist I wouldn't know. I know you're Australian but try and get your head around that thought.

um yeah go look at a corpse, maybe that will tell you.

You're confusing being dead with not existing in the first place. They're two different things.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Pale RIder Did you not understand what I said? Sperm alone is of no more consequence than your fingernail clippings. The idea that masturbation somehow kills untold millions of "potential" human beings expresses a complete ignorance of developmental biology. You prove my point when you say that sperm meeting a fingernail will amount to exactly nothing. Without an egg sperm is completely unimportant and without sperm, an egg is completely unimportant. Each is nothing more and nothing less than a cell from the body from which it came. Once they get together however, their potential is realized and you have a living human being.

a sperm or egg by itself although just a sperm or egg still has a lot more to each, its potential, than just a poor old fingernail, especially a clipped one.

[Anmon]

[=Nemesis;495037]So what. If I didn't exist I wouldn't know.

but existing gives you the insight of the greater benefits of existing, that not existing doesn't, that is the difference.

You're confusing being dead with not existing in the first place. They're two different things.

Both are not alive.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: another day They haven't been born yet. They havent grown into people yet. This abstract possibility of a "human" means nothing. There are billions of real humans that already exist. These "potential souls" that you speak of are literally INFINITE, so it's absolutely meaningless to discuss them. You might as well ban masturbation because it wastes sperm which has the possibility of becoming a child. I Know that's an old argument but honestly, if you want to place that much value on a "potential life" then theres no stopping how far you go. But what matters first is the people who already exist, the feasibility of the planet well supporting them, and the rights of those currently alive and developed and intelligent. A fetus doesn't have a sense of acute consciousness anymore then an ant does.

There is a clear difference between these unknown humans who are sperm and egg cells, and a developing fetus.

With the fetus we are sure baring the remote chance of problems that the fetus will develop into a child.

With all the eggs and sperm plus the fact sperm are ejaculated daily by most men then thats a different consideration.

A fetus WILL have a sense of intelligence, and a mind of its own. All your doing is telling this soon to be human your not technically a humen yet so I'm going to pretend your just random goo and turn the other way while your sucked out in a tube.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: JaneDoe321 Yeah, years of child abuse and negelect akin to torture are definitely preferable.

So you feel comfortable assuming the unborn would prefer nonexistence as opposed to a life of abuse?

Or like most pro choice people do you just want it to be up to the women in private so you can forget and pretend it doesn't occur.

[gela]

So you feel comfortable assuming the unborn would prefer nonexistence as opposed to a life of abuse?

An unborn child can't prefer anything.

Your talking about 'potential humans'. Yes, they are alive - but so are mosquitoes - no one hesitates to kill them.
The fact that they have the potential to grow into something bigger is irrevelent.
Under that logic, every sperm, and every egg should be kept. They are also just potential humans.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Anmon a sperm or egg by itself although just a sperm or egg still has a lot more to each, its potential, than just a poor old fingernail, especially a clipped one.

The key word is "alone". "Alone", if you want to be precise, they are even less than fingernail clippings as they only have half a set of chromosomes and don't even divide. Together, they form a new human being, but "alone", they are utterly unimportant.

In debate, it is important to at least try and understand what others are saying before you disagree.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Nemesis So what. If I didn't exist I wouldn't know. I know you're Australian but try and get your head around that thought.

Had you been concieved, you would have existed and you need not know that you exist in order to exist. And whether they express it or not, unborns, at any stage have an interest in living. They fact that they continue to grow and develop towards maturity is an expression of that interest.

You seem to be having a problem wrapping your own head around the fact that once fertilization is complete, they do exist and are exactly as human as you.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Pale RIder The key word is "alone". "Alone", if you want to be precise, they are even less than fingernail clippings as they only have half a set of chromosomes and don't even divide. Together, they form a new human being, but "alone", they are utterly unimportant. In debate, it is important to at least try and understand what others are saying before you disagree.

The key word is "potential". Potential, pale rider alone doesn't make them unimportant because of what they can be, in debate palerider it is at least important to try and understand what the other is saying before you disagree.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: gela An unborn child can't prefer anything.

That is not a correct assesment. An unborn, at any stage, has an interest in living and an interest is a preference. The fact that they continue to grow and mature is an expression of that interest.

Quote by: gela Your talking about 'potential humans'. Yes, they are alive - but so are mosquitoes - no one hesitates to kill them. The fact that they have the potential to grow into something bigger is irrevelent.

No, we are talking about human beings that are exactly as human as you. They are a different kind of creature than a mosquito or any other form of life on this planet. Human being is the kind of creature you are and the kind of creature they are. Being human is simply what you are, not the degree to which you manifest your potential.

No one kills newborns even though it is undeniable that they will grow into something bigger so clearly the fact that they will grow into something bigger is relavent.

If you can provide some credible science stating that the offspring of two human beings is ever something other than a human being, you will have the basis for an argument, but you will not find such credible science as no rational scientist would make such a rediculous assertion.

Quote by: gela Under that logic, every sperm, and every egg should be kept. They are also just potential humans.

Sperm and egg alone are of no consequence. They are formed, live a preprogrammed life span and die. You don't seem to be able to fully grasp the difference between potential and reality. Sperm and eggs do have the potential to form a human being if they get together but only if they get together. Once they do, their potential is realized. You no longer have the potential to form a human being, you have a human being. The new human being that has been formed is a potential teacher, or a potential architect, or a potential bank robber, but not a potential human being.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Anmon The key word is "potential". Potential, pale rider alone doesn't make them unimportant because of what they can be, in debate palerider it is at least important to try and understand what the other is saying before you disagree.

I am not sure what you are arguing here Ammon? Are you suggesting that men be fined for masturbating or that some form of punishment be imposed on women for having their menstral cycle. Do you realize that even if men don't masturbate, after a pre defined life time each and every sperm cell still dies and is reabsorbed back into the body?

Potential is defined as possible as opposed to actual. Possible is still in the realm of non existence. By themselves, neither sperm nor egg is anything but sperm and egg and neither will ever become more.

[Anmon]

[=Pale RIder;495191]I am not sure what you are arguing here Ammon? Are you suggesting that men be fined for masturbating or that some form of punishment be imposed on women for having their menstral cycle. Do you realize that even if men don't masturbate, after a pre defined life time each and every sperm cell still dies and is reabsorbed back into the body?

No of course not, I don't know why you say this, I'm disagreeing with your assessment of eggs and sperm being worthless by themselves, because of their potential to be something incredible should they meet, so your fingernail comparison, which can only ever be a fingernail whether its attached or clipped, where as an egg or sperm by it self or joined has the potential to be something much greater than a nail.
If it is bled out or masturbated or absorbed, this still doesn't change what it could have been.

Potential is defined as possible as opposed to actual. Possible is still in the realm of non existence. By themselves, neither sperm nor egg is anything but sperm and egg and neither will ever become more.

By themselves egg and sperm still have each half the necessary chromosomes to create a human being, I would hardly call that nothing, whether that potential to meet is met or not.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Anmon No of course not, I don't know why you say this, I'm disagreeing with your assessment of eggs and sperm being worthless by themselves,

Because by themselves, they are worthless. (unless you are in the stem cell business) If you have a handful of sperm what do you have? Add $4.50 to it (and wash your hand) and you can get a cup of coffee from starbucks.

[quote=Anmon;495193] If it is bled out or masturbated or absorbed, this still doesn't change what it could have been.{/quote]

Could have been is still squarely in the realm of nothing.

Quote by: Anmon By themselves egg and sperm still have each half the necessary chromosomes to create a human being, I would hardly call that nothing, whether that potential to meet is met or not.

If the potenital is not realized, then you have exactly nothing. If it is realized, then you have both sperm and egg and not one by itself. If you want to worship potential rather than actuality, far be it from me to stand in your way.

I will join you in saying that both sperm and eggs are unique in that they are the only cells in your body that have half of a set of chromosomes, but I won't join you in saying that ALONE, they have any more importance than my fingernail clippings. Both are cells from my body that are sluffed off.

[Anmon]

[Pale RIder;495195]Because by themselves, they are worthless. (unless you are in the stem cell business) If you have a handful of sperm what do you have? Add $4.50 to it (and wash your hand) and you can get a cup of coffee from starbucks.

Again, their potential does not make them worthless, whether it is used or not.

Could have been is still squarely in the realm of nothing.

Not really.

If the potenital is not realized, then you have exactly nothing.

No you have a potential not used.

If it is realized, then you have both sperm and egg and not one by itself. If you want to worship potential rather than actuality, far be it from me to stand in your way.

I see what can be, you don't unless it happens first.

I will join you in saying that both sperm and eggs are unique in that they are the only cells in your body that have half of a set of chromosomes, but I won't join you in saying that ALONE, they have any more importance than my fingernail clippings. Both are cells from my body that are sluffed off.

Well you come and let me know when science has cloned a baby from a fingernail ok?

[Walrus]

Quote by: Pale RIder You seemed to be begging the question and assuming that the term "fetus" describes something other than a human being. Clearly both our societies have decided that human beings have the right to live and unborns, at any stage are most certainly human beings.

Really? I can’t see why you would think that, considering the term is used throughout this thread and is included it its title. I used the term “foetus” because it is the correct medical term, I could’ve said “human foetus” but didn’t consider it necessary. Calling it a foetus or unborn (that doesn’t define species either) is for me irrelevant, it is what it is.