With regards to abortion, Who's rights are more important .. women or foetuses?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Isherwood Freedom of choice does not require anyone to get an abortion, but allows those who wish to undergo that procedure, for whatever personal reason, to do so. Those who wish to refrain are free to do so. Anti-abortionists would deny everyone the opportunity to have an abortion, whether or not they share the morals of those who ban it.

I suppose that had you lived 150 years ago, you would have had a sign on your wagon that said in bold letters:

IF YOU DON'T LIKE SLAVERY, DON'T OWN ONE!!

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Morality Games Your whole argument is very semantics driven, which is difficult to deal with and not really meaningful.

Call it what you will. Are you arguing that we undergo some sort of metamorphosis in which we change from a non human into a human? And if you are, then kindly provide some scientific evidence to support that claim because a metamorphosis from non human to human would certainly be a subject well covered and documented by science.

[gela]

'Human' is just a word.

You keep saying that they are human. A different level of human.

Im not really concerned with the word human. You can call a fetus what you want.

The fact is, that it cannot think - as it hasn't got a brain.
It cannot feel, as it hasn't got nerve endings.
It can't talk, It can't bear arms, It can't even be free - as it is totaly dependent on its mother.
It does not have the capability to exercise its rights, therefore, there is no point in giving it any.

Its like giving a dog the right of free speech.

[Marilyn Monroe]

MO is the mother's life takes precedence. She's the one in control.

[Morality Games]

Quote by: Pale RIder Call it what you will. Are you arguing that we undergo some sort of metamorphosis in which we change from a non human into a human? And if you are, then kindly provide some scientific evidence to support that claim because a metamorphosis from non human to human would certainly be a subject well covered and documented by science.

You appear to be losing your grip on reality, since someone like you asking someone like me for scientific evidence is like a murderer asking for a getaway car from the police.

Just so everyone knows, there is no reason to argue with a person using a mode of logic from out of Classical Greece (or Medieval Europe). No sensible conclusions can be derived from such debate.

[Maryjane]

He's scrambling for reasons..I'm pretty much done with him.

[Anmon]

Quote by: gela The fact is, that it cannot think - as it hasn't got a brain. It cannot feel, as it hasn't got nerve endings. It can't talk, It can't bear arms, It can't even be free - as it is totaly dependent on its mother. It does not have the capability to exercise its rights, therefore, there is no point in giving it any.

Yet you still give it a mother, yeah great mother.

Any woman that aborts for a reason of inconvenience should have her fallopian tubes surgically removed, immediately after the abortion.
Life is a gift, and if your going to treat it like its rubbish, then you don't deserve the right to have any children afterwards.
You deprive it of any rights to make it inhuman, so as to ease your conscience.
Well you can be as cold and clinical as you like, but it doesn't make you hard, it only makes you cruel, and less inhuman than the developing baby you so arrogantly dismiss as nothing.
Is there anything worse than an indignant righteous pro abortionist?

[Maryjane]

Cry me a freaking river with your emotional outburst. We already went over this...if it's such a gift why is your god such an indian giver?

Is there anything worse than an indignant righteous pro abortionist?

Yes, A self righteous pro-lifer that can't mind their own business.

[ShadowFox]

AND who insist on intruding on other peoples lives yet gives large outbursts whenever someone does it to them.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: gela The fact is, that it cannot think - as it hasn't got a brain.

Children who are born with no brain are recognized as human beings. They are issued birth certificates, and death certificates and we simply can not kill them because they are recognized as persons with the right to live. The ability to think is not what makes you a human being.

Quote by: gela It cannot feel, as it hasn't got nerve endings.

There is a genetic disorder that results in people not being able to feel any sensation at all. They are still human beings. The ability to feel is not what makes you a human being.

Quote by: gela It can't talk, It can't bear arms, It can't even be free - as it is totaly dependent on its mother.

The ability to speak or carry a gun is not what makes you a human being and your degree of dependence or independence is not what makes you a human being.

Quote by: gela It does not have the capability to exercise its rights, therefore, there is no point in giving it any.

Human beings in this country have the right to live. It certainly has the capacity to exercise that right. And the fact that one doesn't exercie a right does not mean that one doesn't still have that right. There are those who wouldn't think of owning a firearm, but the fact that they don't, doesn't mean that they still don't reserve the right.

Quote by: gela Its like giving a dog the right of free speech.

You don't have to exercise the right in order to have it. If you never speak a word, you still have the right to speak up when you wish.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Morality Games You appear to be losing your grip on reality, since someone like you asking someone like me for scientific evidence is like a murderer asking for a getaway car from the police.

No answer huh? Is a smart assed remark really the best you can do? You made the claim that we are not human beings from the time we are concieved. Either we are not, in which case we undergo some metamoprhosis in which we change from non human to human or we are. You don't seem to be able to prove your point so you switch to smart ass mode in an attempt to get yourself out of the corner you painted yourself into.

Quote by: gela Just so everyone knows, there is no reason to argue with a person using a mode of logic from out of Classical Greece (or Medieval Europe). No sensible conclusions can be derived from such debate.

An appeal for the approval of the crowd? Does the crowd joining you in the illusion that you have scored some point help you get through your day?

You have made the claim that unborns are not human beings and you offered up the irrelavent and historically inaccurate reason that we are called sapiens because we are sapient and until we are sapient (wise) we are not human beings. Can you offer up any thing to substantiate or corroborate your claim?

[gela]

Any woman that aborts for a reason of inconvenience should have her fallopian tubes surgically removed, immediately after the abortion.

Well this is could be denying several potential babies life.

Life is a gift, and if your going to treat it like its rubbish, then you don't deserve the right to have any children afterwards.

Life is a gift... and yet you enjoy hunting and killing.

What I think you ment to say is human life is a gift.

You deprive it of any rights to make it inhuman, so as to ease your conscience.

No, I gave logical reasons to deprive it of its rights.
They are listed in my post that you had quoted.

Well you can be as cold and clinical as you like, but it doesn't make you hard, it only makes you cruel, and less inhuman than the developing baby you so arrogantly dismiss as nothing.

So because I don't agree with you I am less human then a lump of cells?

Your a fascist for forcing women to have babies. Don't come into my house and tell me that I have to have childred and give up my career and my social life.

Im not being cold, Im being logical. You are letting emotion cloud your judgement.

Is there anything worse than an indignant righteous pro abortionist?

First, do not call me a pro abortionist. Im not encouraging everyone to go out and have an abortion. I never plan on having an abortion.
I am pro choice. I support the right of the woman to decide wether or not to have a child.

To answer your question. Yes, there are several worse things. If you think abortion is the worst thing out there, you have a very narrow view on life.
How about you spend some time and money worrying about the actual children dying of starvation and disease.

[gela]

Pale rider:

All you have done is take out every example on its own.
Find another example of a 'human' who has all the traits I listed; and see if they are still given rights.

Yes, we can give people rights when they don't chose to exercise them. But there is no point in giving something rights - that they cannot use; when it infringes upon someone elses rights. That being the mothers rights.
My point was, that a mothers rights take priority - because the mother has the capability to exercise her rights.

[Anmon]

=gela;499684]Well this is could be denying several potential babies life.

Dont make me laugh, the average western woman goes to pieces now, from having two babies in her life, let alone several.
Stopping more abortions if anything.
And stop giving us that crap about how painful it is too, if natural yeah, but most of you are drugged up to your eyeballs to stop the pain from getting bad, so much for the constant femnut bragging of women handling pain better, and lets not forget C sections, in some areas 60% of white women have them for no reason other than to avoid the pain of natural child birth.
Western women are nothing but frauds.

Life is a gift... and yet you enjoy hunting and killing.

Human life is a gift, animals are there our uses, including for hunting and eating.
Were talking about abortion here, so I didn't think it was necessary to specify human life for you, unless you believe animals are having abortions as well.

No, I gave logical reasons to deprive it of its rights.

Ive given logical reasons too, but convenience sure isn't one of them.

Your a fascist for forcing women to have babies. Don't come into my house and tell me that I have to have childred and give up my career and my social life.

I'm not forcing you to have babies, I'm trying to get people to see the immorality of mass abortions for convenience, and the damage it is doing to peoples lives, and how we view the importance of innocent life.
Its not good enough to agree to have a baby with your husband, and then change your mind a quarter of the way through, too bad.

Im not being cold, Im being logical. You are letting emotion cloud your judgement.

logic would suggest you shouldn't have got yourself into a position to get pregnant in the first place, if your not responsible enough to deal with the consequences.

First, do not call me a pro abortionist. Im not encouraging everyone to go out and have an abortion. I never plan on having an abortion.

Good thats the first thing you have said I like.

To answer your question. Yes, there are several worse things. If you think abortion is the worst thing out there, you have a very narrow view on life.

Do you have any idea of how many abortions have been in the west since the slaughter market opened up forty years ago?
Its not a small thing, and definitely one of the worst things going on in the west.

How about you spend some time and money worrying about the actual children dying of starvation and disease

Do you?

[Morality Games]

No answer huh? Is a smart assed remark really the best you can do? You made the claim that we are not human beings from the time we are concieved. Either we are not, in which case we undergo some metamoprhosis in which we change from non human to human or we are. You don't seem to be able to prove your point so you switch to smart ass mode in an attempt to get yourself out of the corner you painted yourself into.

I pointed out the basis for your reasoning is obsolete under modern logic. It was your obligation to agree, and in doing so lose the argument, or say no and explain why your essentialism remains valid. You are in no position to accuse anyone for not answering when you yourself didn't explain why you are justified in thinking under the logical conditions you do. Right now, you seem to be faking pretty hard that essentialism is the strongest current of thought in science, as if it were a "given" rather than your very strange exception to the rule. For you see, thanks to the groundbreaking research of the 20th century, the dominant way of thinkng in science is relativism, not essentialism.

[tommy5x]

Quote by: Anmon Dont make me laugh, the average western woman goes to pieces now, from having two babies in her life, let alone several. Stopping more abortions if anything. And stop giving us that crap about how painful it is too, if natural yeah, but most of you are drugged up to your eyeballs to stop the pain from getting bad, so much for the constant femnut bragging of women handling pain better, and lets not forget C sections, in some areas 60% of white women have them for no reason other than to avoid the pain of natural child birth. Western women are nothing but frauds.

Damn women. How dare they wish to make a birth easier for them, and consequently the child? Also, your fem-bashing is pointless in terms of the current argument.

[Morality Games]

Western women are nothing but frauds.

"claps hands" Congradulations! You have just moved up to third place in the running for most unappreciable human beings I have met on the Internet.

Putting aside the obvious point that Christians are supposed to be reluctant about judging at all, why is someone who doesn't even have the capacity for childbirth judging the actions of a being who does? If the experience is beyond you, then it is sensible to retain your silence.

[Maryjane]

Someone's got to take the blame. We are used to it. That whole apple, serpent thingy....

Anywho..three cheers for vaginal deliveries! Hip, Hip...omfg that hurts! (but I did it...no drugs!)

[Morality Games]

Anywho..three cheers for vaginal deliveries! Hip, Hip...omfg that hurts! (but I did it...no drugs!)

Well, at least Amnon will be happy, and in the end, isn't that the only thing which really matters? I mean, when we get down to it, that is clearly the truth.

[Maryjane]

Three healthy and happy little boys...yea, I'd say that was what it was all about.

You kinda forget about the pain till it comes time to deliever again. Imagine slamming your uterus in a car door over and over and over for ..oh say...8 hours or so. Prolly why I waited 9 years to do it again.

(oh, you can't...men don't have a uterus)