How Big Is Jesus' Carbon Footprint

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Quite the contrary, the Christian God is a jealous, vindictive God. ( Almost makes one wonder if they're being duped by a "lesser God".)

Gnosticism? I had no idea. *scandalized*

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Clarence well he probably feels that since supposed Christians run this country, they must be singled out.

Actually, it was just a casual observation I thought was worth sharing. If it gets people talking, and somebody actually takes action because of it, well, all the better.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Partly because it was a casual observation, but also because I knew it would irritate a certain unnamed member here, and also there is the added bonus of tickling my general distaste for organized religion bone. ( Which is connected to the common sense bone )

Funny. My common sense bone is connected to my It's-silly-not-to-profile-to-some-extent-at-airports bone. At any rate, for those of us who are not familiar with this vendetta, the OP kinda seems like a random and somewhat pointless rant.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Funny. My common sense bone is connected to my It's-silly-not-to-profile-to-some-extent-at-airports bone.

Well, you are a girl. I'll show you where else we differ if you like.

Quote by: phoenix_fire At any rate, for those of us who are not familiar with this vendetta, the OP kinda seems like a random and somewhat pointless rant.

Again, perhaps that is because you do not understand the extent of the problem in this part of the country. Visit the Midwest.

[phoenix_fire]

Whoa, whoa, keep it in your pants there, buster.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Whoa, whoa, keep it in your pants there, buster.

Wait now, who said anything about removing it from my pants?


Honest, a simple anatomy lesson was all I had in mind.

[phoenix_fire]

I'll bet.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I'll bet.

Where has the "innocent until proven guilty" mentality gone?


Now, what I thought was quite an innocent little jab, has become tarnished by your dirty mind.



PM me...

[Clarence]

if jesus were born today we'd probably crucify him. Big religion would lead the charge

[phoenix_fire]

I s'pose that would mean nothing much has changed. The Pharisees just look a little different. 'like to think I'd be there with Him. God willing.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Christians should reflect on their own behavior before attempt to lecture others about their actions when it comes to Global Warming.

What is "global warming"? I'm just asking because as I type this it's snowing... rapidly... and there's over half a foot on the ground... at the end of March.

How many basically empty churches are there in your town that heat, and cool untold cubic feet of indoor area for the comfort of their paritioners, even though the bulk of those paritioners rarely attend the church? How much does the church drive up the price of precious resources by consuming such vast amounts to heat/cool empty buildings making those resources more scarce? Does one day of worship justify seven days of heating/cooling the church? Does it justify heating/cooling all those empty churches?

Are you seriously making this argument?

Honeywell, 4:17, "Lo, and the Lord said unto them, "Let there be programmable thermostats." And it was good.

Even more important, do any of the people supporting such behavior have a right to lecture me about conserving resources?

Kind of ironic, considering you're doing the exact same thing in this thread.

Quote by: Milton Bradley My point is that organized religion is doing a fine job of making resources more scarce, and expensive for the poor.

And so are you, and so is everyone else in the civilized world. I don't see your point here.

As individuals, we are not tax exampt in the name of "doing good for society", so I don't see how that has any relevance here, other than you cannot articulate a legitimate rebuttle to me points, and have, as stated befor, reverted to attacking the messenger who delivers messages you don't like hearing.

I don't see what their tax-exempt status has to do with it.

Are you also railing against the American Red Cross for all of the plastic they waste in collecting blood donations? They could easily use all that stuff more than once...

Quote by: Milton Bradley I suspect that is because you have no idea how many empty churches there really are over here.

How do you know they're empty? Being an admitted religion-hater it would surprise me if you actually went inside of most of them.

Quote by: Milton Bradley Yeah, but that's because you live in Texas, or someplace warm. Believe me, if you fail to heat a church in Ohio, the pipes will freeze, and burst spilling water over everything. The place will sweat, and condensation will gather in a whole lot of unwanted places.

This shows that you neither understand church nor HVAC/plumbing. To prevent pipes from bursting only requires heat to about 35 degrees Farenheit - often no external energy required to heat a building to that temperature. Keeping an office zone heated a few hours a day while the pastor is there during the week, even if it's only part-time, is more than sufficient if the church is laid out even half intelligently.

Churches this far North are full time operations, often with full time caretakers. Many even have the Ministers house attached, and the family will leve there full time.

Yes... in which case, you still have no argument. The ministers house will be heated separately from the church, and is just a house. Are you suggesting people in Ohio don't heat their houses? Or are you suggesting people who happen to have their head of household employed by a church don't deserve heat?

And if churches are full-time operations that weakens your position - people need heat wherever they are. If they are gathering at a common building like a church, that is more efficient than each of them heating their homes separately.

Quote by: Milton Bradley Non-renewable resources become more rare, and thus more expensive as time goes by. The more these empty churches consume, the rarer, and more costly these resources become.

Which is a good reason to reduce their use, which many do. Another good reason is cost - most churches seek to spend as little on overhead as possible to maximize the amount of money they can give back to their community.

I don't know what it is you are trying to get me to defend here, but I believe people should be able to spend their personal money as they see fit within the bounds of the law.

Just not people who choose to pool their personal money into a place of worship?

Quote by: Milton Bradley I was not suggesting that churches should become housing, or homeless shelters. I was asking your consious if was justifiable to provide all this mostly unused space for worship when there is so much allegedly "more important" change that Christians want to bring the world.

What a ridiculous question. Is it justifiable for the Salvation Army to lease building space when they could use that money to give to the poor?

The church building is a facility that helps the church carry out its mission. Your argument seems to be that charitable causes carry out their missions without the tools to do so.

I was also pointing out the irony of the situation where Houses of God could be making a measurable contribution to other peoples misery by hogging up the natural resources, and driving up prices.

It's called an investment. The church facilities are an investment - they take the resources used to run the church and, through the works of the members, convert them into help for others.

I find your argument to be absurdly short-sighted.

I also think this is a perfect example of a situation where common sense could win out, and action be taken to alleviate this problem, but it won't happen, in the name of the status quo.

Please enlighten us to your common sense "actions" that would alleviate this problem. I'm waiting...

Quote by: Milton Bradley I believe they do consume vast amounst of energy. The bulk of the huge mega-churches in our area are ancient relics of times past, and it's common sense that old buildings are not energy efficient. There are vast numbers of these building spead across the Midwest.

No, it's not common sense. It's unfounded nonsense. How do you know these buildings have not undergone comprehensive energy efficiency makeovers?

Quote by: Milton Bradley Partly because it was a casual observation, but also because I knew it would irritate a certain unnamed member here, and also there is the added bonus of tickling my general distaste for organized religion bone. ( Which is connected to the common sense bone )

Well, this is a first. Usually you don't see someone openly admitting to trolling here.

[phoenix_fire]

Very well put, Tivo! I'd give you props if that was still a function on this board.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Kind of ironic, considering you're doing the exact same thing in this thread.

Really, I'm heating unused space in this thread?

Quote by: tivodan1116 And so are you, and so is everyone else in the civilized world. I don't see your point here.

I stay warm to stay alive, I do not heat my garage so I can go out, and spend a few hours there once a week.

Quote by: tivodan1116 I don't see what their tax-exempt status has to do with it.

You probably don't mind your church having a political opinion either.

Quote by: tivodan1116 How do you know they're empty? Being an admitted religion-hater it would surprise me if you actually went inside of most of them.

Because I live here, and I can attest to the empty parking lots, and the newspaper articles articulating how attendance is down. Not to mention I never see the masses mobilizing on Sunday morning for the mass exodus out of the neighborhood to church like they used to.

Quote by: tivodan1116 This shows that you neither understand church nor HVAC/plumbing. To prevent pipes from bursting only requires heat to about 35 degrees Farenheit - often no external energy required to heat a building to that temperature. Keeping an office zone heated a few hours a day while the pastor is there during the week, even if it's only part-time, is more than sufficient if the church is laid out even half intelligently.

Most of the churches around here are ancient relics built in another century with no thought given to energy conservation. We're talking massive old brick churches.

Quote by: tivodan1116 Yes... in which case, you still have no argument. The ministers house will be heated separately from the church, and is just a house. Are you suggesting people in Ohio don't heat their houses? Or are you suggesting people who happen to have their head of household employed by a church don't deserve heat?

I'm suggesting that the Minister is heating the church all week long for the small group of paritioners that attend sporadically.

Quote by: tivodan1116 And if churches are full-time operations that weakens your position - people need heat wherever they are. If they are gathering at a common building like a church, that is more efficient than each of them heating their homes separately.

Except we all know that they are already all heating their homes seperately.


Really Tivo, buy an argument already.

Quote by: tivodan1116 Just not people who choose to pool their personal money into a place of worship?

I wasn't questioning giving money to the church, I was questioning how the church spent that money, and the ramifications of those actions.

Quote by: tivodan1116 I find your argument to be absurdly short-sighted.

Perhaps that's because you managed to miss the point, and instead fill in many other absurd contentions I was not making. Congratulations, you've done it again.

Quote by: tivodan1116 Please enlighten us to your common sense "actions" that would alleviate this problem. I'm waiting...

Perhaps they could invest in solar power, and solar heating, and help alleviate stress on the poor, who have fewer choices.

Quote by: tivodan1116 No, it's not common sense. It's unfounded nonsense. How do you know these buildings have not undergone comprehensive energy efficiency makeovers?

Um, they're my neighbors.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Very well put, Tivo! I'd give you props if that was still a function on this board.

He deserves no props for being obtuse, and substituting his own ill concieved ideas in place of the original question, which he claimed was too complicated, or not worded clearly enough for him to comprehend.

[tivodan1116]

Ah yes, I love posts filled with nothing but asinine non-responses...

Quote by: Milton Bradley Really, I'm heating unused space in this thread?

Lecturing others about wasting resources.

I stay warm to stay alive, I do not heat my garage so I can go out, and spend a few hours there once a week.

Well, since we have technology (read:clothing) that will allow us to easily survive and even carry out our lives for months at a time in temperatures as low as 40 degrees (much below that and hydration becomes impractical), I'm assuming that's where you have your thermostat set? Because otherwise you're not merely "staying alive", you're being comfortable. And if you're going to lecture others about being wasteful you should be using the absolute minimum needed to survive yourself.

Furthermore, you have yet to provide anything except your own casual observations that the churches are heating their buildings for anything other than the hours each week when people are there. How about you try providing some, gosh I don't know, EVIDENCE that your initial point in this thread is even true before you make ridiculous accusations?

You probably don't mind your church having a political opinion either.

Irrelevant personal comment. Ignored.

Because I live here, and I can attest to the empty parking lots, and the newspaper articles articulating how attendance is down. Not to mention I never see the masses mobilizing on Sunday morning for the mass exodus out of the neighborhood to church like they used to.

Logical fallacy: Anecdote.

Again, evidence is your friend.

Most of the churches around here are ancient relics built in another century with no thought given to energy conservation. We're talking massive old brick churches.

And none of this - either the era in which they were built, or the size of the building, is any... wait for it... EVIDENCE of anything.

Ready to see how ridiculous your anecdotal "reasoning" is?

My house was built in 1829. It is listed on several Registers of Historic Places and from the exterior (just like your admitted only view of these churches) looks as it did over 150 years ago......





...... It also exceeds Energy Star requirements for a structure of its size and is far more efficient than most new construction in the United States.

Your view proves nothing, get it?

I'm suggesting that the Minister is heating the church all week long for the small group of paritioners that attend sporadically.

I'm suggesting that you have no evidence of this. The difference is that your suggestion is just a suggestion meant to troll people, and my suggestion can be easily demonstrated by anyone reading this thread.

Except we all know that they are already all heating their homes seperately.

Do we? Um... My thermostat goes down on Sunday mornings, and my heat doesn't run at all while I am at Church. In case you can't figure it out, that means I'm using ZERO resources to heat my house while I'm at church. How do you know they don't do the same? If they have programmable thermostats they probably do.

Really Tivo, buy an argument already.

If only I could find someone who had one to sell... you sure don't.

I wasn't questioning giving money to the church, I was questioning how the church spent that money, and the ramifications of those actions.

And as I said, a church is just like any other organization in that it takes in certain resources and produces certain outcomes with those resources. One of the resources used by the church is energy for heat. Just as a pure example, I know that my church, which exists solely on donations, spends more in a year on outreach and mission work than on utilities. That means that for the price of utilities (and other expenses), our church is able to generate community service that exceeds the market value (not to mention the intangible value) of the amount of resources spent on heat.

Economics 101 (more like 01) says that's a positive return on investment. If you told Warren Buffet that for a few dollars in natural gas and electric he could receive thousands of dollars worth of services in return, do you think he'd take that deal?

Quote by: Milton Bradley He deserves no props for being obtuse, and substituting his own ill concieved ideas in place of the original question, which he claimed was too complicated, or not worded clearly enough for him to comprehend.

LOL and who is substituting things? Show me where I claimed ANY of this or admit you're lying. I never claimed anything was too complicated in the slightest.

You stated in a nutshell that you were trolling in the OP. Your "ideas" and "questions" contained within, as I and others have pointed out, were based upon nothing except your own extremely limited, highly biased view of the world.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Ah yes, I love posts filled with nothing but asinine non-responses...

You must, you make your fair share of them. Perhaps even more than your fair share.

Quote by: tivodan1116 Lecturing others about wasting resources.

I wasn't lecturing others about wasting resources, I was responding to the churches condemnation of us unwashed hoards with a casual observation of my own.


If your guilty conscience takes it as a personal attack, perhaps one should reflect inward rather than lashing out at others with false accusations.

Quote by: tivodan1116 Furthermore, you have yet to provide anything except your own casual observations that the churches are heating their buildings for anything other than the hours each week when people are there. How about you try providing some, gosh I don't know, EVIDENCE that your initial point in this thread is even true before you make ridiculous accusations?

I was letting the reader make their own observation regarding this, and rested my case on the fact that one can make this observation wherever the temperatures are extreme enough to warrant heating, and air consitioning.


I know you don't trust the reader to establish any objective truths fro themselves, but I do.

Quote by: tivodan1116 Again, evidence is your friend.

Again, opening ones eyes can also be beneficial to the organism.

Quote by: tivodan1116 Ready to see how ridiculous your anecdotal "reasoning" is?

Oh yes, do school me Mr' 2/3rds of a lawyer.

Quote by: tivodan1116 My house was built in 1829. It is listed on several Registers of Historic Places and from the exterior (just like your admitted only view of these churches) looks as it did over 150 years ago............ It also exceeds Energy Star requirements for a structure of its size and is far more efficient than most new construction in the United States. Your view proves nothing, get it?

Oh, and how many times was that structure renovated?


How mant times have the churches in question been renovated? ( None, if my guess is correct )

Quote by: tivodan1116 I'm suggesting that you have no evidence of this. The difference is that your suggestion is just a suggestion meant to troll people, and my suggestion can be easily demonstrated by anyone reading this thread.

Actually, quite to the contrary, I suspect they shall be able to go out of their own doors, and make the same observation, and judge for themselves. ( Again, this boils down to trusting the reader to investigate for themselves rather than taking my word for it. )

Quote by: tivodan1116 And as I said, a church is just like any other organization in that it takes in certain resources and produces certain outcomes with those resources. One of the resources used by the church is energy for heat. Just as a pure example, I know that my church, which exists solely on donations, spends more in a year on outreach and mission work than on utilities. That means that for the price of utilities (and other expenses), our church is able to generate community service that exceeds the market value (not to mention the intangible value) of the amount of resources spent on heat.

This does nothing to to disprove that wasting non-renewable resources makes them more scarce, and more costly to those with less options. Now, what is the stated charter of the organizaion in question again?

Quote by: tivodan1116 You stated in a nutshell that you were trolling in the OP. Your "ideas" and "questions" contained within, as I and others have pointed out, were based upon nothing except your own extremely limited, highly biased view of the world.

No, that was the added bonus. My comments were made to promote discussion about the role the church has in rising feul prices.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Milton Bradley No, that was the added bonus. My comments were made to promote discussion about the role the church has in rising feul prices.

You spelled fuel wrong.

But thats besides the point. This is a useless rant.

Does watching the superbowl, or any sports game serve a purpose. Do sports themselves do anything but waste massive amounts of resources? How about event paraded, or new years eve parties, or any parties or events. These produce nothing but temporary entertainment value.

So should all of the above be forgotten and abandoned? Please. Are you not the same person who argues that fuel economy standards are unconstitutional because they restrict with a free right to drive whatever you want?

Does it bother you that I submit to a system that thanks to rich parents I'll probably end up making tons more money that you?

Well despite intoxication I'm typing pretty well, so feel free to ban me. Seriously its getting old talking to broken record militant atheists and paranoid global conspiracy guys. The funniest part is you could be totally right but it won't make any difference. The world is eventually going to become one global government, and all your precious liberties restricted or banned. Welcome to beyond 1800. Invent a time machine and go back in time if you love the past so much.