How Big Is Jesus' Carbon Footprint

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Winter wind But seriously, I see your point. While I think that the AC at church less of a factor then the other things, it is slightly hypocritical. However, I think you are taking issue with something rather petty.

I suspect that is because you have no idea how many empty churches there really are over here.


It wouldn't be a strectch to say that that same area converted to living space would house millions of people, and that the resources used to climate control all those square feet of worship space is making resources more scarce, and costly. ( Which I would think the church, if it really cared, would frown upon. )

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Technosoul Passing the blame to someone was already done by Adam in the Garden of Eden, and then by Eve. Sorry miss Church, no fair hiding behind the fig leaf or shifting the blame to someone else.

I'm not shifting blame. I flat out said that in my experience, most churches don't use electricity in the building when not in use. Please read.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I'm not shifting blame. I flat out said that in my experience, most churches don't use electricity in the building when not in use. Please read.

Yeah, but that's because you live in Texas, or someplace warm. Believe me, if you fail to heat a church in Ohio, the pipes will freeze, and burst spilling water over everything. The place will sweat, and condensation will gather in a whole lot of unwanted places.


Churches this far North are full time operations, often with full time caretakers. Many even have the Ministers house attached, and the family will leve there full time.

[HelioPrime]

mb -

I just noticed but you refer to churches are taking away resources from the poor. Are you saying the "the poor" require or can afford expensive building materials?

And how do you define taking away water and electricity when these are supplied to anyone willing to pay?

And since you didn't answer earlier wouldn't wasting resources producing and transporting drugs and guns also be better left to reduce costs to "the poor"?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Milton Bradley I suspect that is because you have no idea how many empty churches there really are over here. It wouldn't be a strectch to say that that same area converted to living space would house millions of people, and that the resources used to climate control all those square feet of worship space is making resources more scarce, and costly. ( Which I would think the church, if it really cared, would frown upon. )

Why don't you offer spare space on your floor, or space i your yard (if you have one)

This entire thread is silly. Do libraries, public institutions, and parks all offer themselves as places to sleep for free? Should be stop constructing public parks, dog parks, and spend the money all of charity? Nonsense your just grasping at straws defined by your narrow view that religion is bunk so wasting any time/resources on it is folly.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Milton Bradley How Big is Jesus' Carbon Footprint? Christians should reflect on their own behavior before attempt to lecture others about their actions when it comes to Global Warming.

So should you and Al Gore!

How many basically empty churches are there in your town that heat, and cool untold cubic feet of indoor area for the comfort of their paritioners, even though the bulk of those paritioners rarely attend the church?

How many other places where people gather socially do likewise?

How much does the church drive up the price of precious resources by consuming such vast amounts to heat/cool empty buildings making those resources more scarce?

Do they really consume "vast amounts"? Do they really heat/cool empty buildings? What about all these damned skyscrapers that have the heat/cooling and lights on over the weekend when the buildings are practically empty?

Does one day of worship justify seven days of heating/cooling the church? Does it justify heating/cooling all those empty churches?

This shows you really don't know what the hell you're talking about and I am really sick of all these damned threads intended only to express animus toward religion! I don't know of any church that runs heating and air conditioning seven days a week if the building is only used part of one day a week.

Is this what Jesus want would want?

What He would likely want is for people like you to stop creating threads with the intent of showing your animus toward Him and His Church.

Even more important, do any of the people supporting such behavior have a right to lecture me about conserving resources?

More of a right than you have to lecture Christians about anything when your lectures are based on wrong information. Besides, the only "Christians" I know of that might be lecturing you on your use of resources are liberal ones that have essentially abandoned the core doctrines of the Christian faith (and, thus, have ceased to be Christian). If you have a gripe, take it up with the World Council of Churches!

Perhaps organized religion needs to reorganize into an more eco-friendly incarnation, or risk becoming even more obscure.

Why should religion be more eco-friendly and who are you to dictate to religion what it must do?

[JaneDoe321]

I thought there was some basic concept in Christianity about being "good stewards". The Vatican has recently added non-ecofriendliness to their list of sins. I believe Islam and Judaism have similar concepts, etc.

So, it does stand to reason that "Do as we say, not as we do" could be viewed as hypocrisy.

That being said, I don't think *most* churches are heated/cooled 24/7 to extreme levels. It is less efficient to turn the AC off and then expect it to cool down to a "normal" level, as an example, than to keep it somewhere reasonable, or as was mentioned it makes no sense to allow pipes to freeze. It is wise to plant trees to block sunlight from heating some of the church, tho, or whatever. I mean, we can take steps to counter the "negatives" that a "house of worship" entails with regards to environmental impact, just as we do with our "secular" houses.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: HelioPrime I just noticed but you refer to churches are taking away resources from the poor. Are you saying the "the poor" require or can afford expensive building materials?

I was refering more to the non-renewable resources like natural gas, and heating oil.

Quote by: HelioPrime And how do you define taking away water and electricity when these are supplied to anyone willing to pay?

Non-renewable resources become more rare, and thus more expensive as time goes by. The more these empty churches consume, the rarer, and more costly these resources become.

Quote by: HelioPrime And since you didn't answer earlier wouldn't wasting resources producing and transporting drugs and guns also be better left to reduce costs to "the poor"?

I don't know what it is you are trying to get me to defend here, but I believe people should be able to spend their personal money as they see fit within the bounds of the law.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: HelioPrime Why don't you offer spare space on your floor, or space i your yard (if you have one) This entire thread is silly. Do libraries, public institutions, and parks all offer themselves as places to sleep for free?

I was not suggesting that churches should become housing, or homeless shelters. I was asking your consious if was justifiable to provide all this mostly unused space for worship when there is so much allegedly "more important" change that Christians want to bring the world.


I was also pointing out the irony of the situation where Houses of God could be making a measurable contribution to other peoples misery by hogging up the natural resources, and driving up prices.

Quote by: HelioPrime Should be stop constructing public parks, dog parks, and spend the money all of charity? Nonsense your just grasping at straws defined by your narrow view that religion is bunk so wasting any time/resources on it is folly.

I disagree. I think there are measurable, obvious problems with religions stated goals, and what they actually accomplish within the community.


I also think this is a perfect example of a situation where common sense could win out, and action be taken to alleviate this problem, but it won't happen, in the name of the status quo.


Now, back to your regularly scheduled hypocrisy.

[Jack]

What He would likely want is for people like you to stop creating threads with the intent of showing your animus toward Him and His Church.

If it offends someone's deity to have questions asked and skepticism expressed, that deity has too thin a skin and ought to find another line of work. If there was a god, I can't imagine him/her/it being bothered by nonbelievers.

[phoenix_fire]

It would annoy me if you said on a regular basis that I did not exist. It would annoy your loved ones even more if you regularly denied their existence. What makes you think it wouldn't bother God?

[Clarence]

seems a deity could be bothered but not offended. Only occasionally do you even get a sign of him but only if you're looking and it is always a questionable circumstance. If the game is faith...believing without seeing, how could he be anything more than just a little dissapointed? I mean, questions are encouraged and rewarded in nearly every other aspect of our lives. If you look at evolution, questions may have been a matter of survival. It'd be like me training my boy to piss in the pot with rewards and then have a special circumstance where he's supposed to go in his pants but I'm not going to show him directly when. So he learns to go in the potty and then I'd be disappointed? I always try to understand god from a father's point of view. I'll never understand this crap even if I do happen to believe.

[Clarence]

for the op...Christians please embrace green energy. It just makes sense. Wouldn't it be disrespectful to trash your parents house?

[phoenix_fire]

There are countless organizations and individuals (aka the vast majority of, well, everyone) who do not utilize green practices. What makes MB single out Christians, I wonder?

[Clarence]

well he probably feels that since supposed Christians run this country, they must be singled out. I think I understand Milts perspective most of the time, but in this case he's not pointing out hypocrisies exactly. Most modern christians think our environment is at our disposal (disposable) any way. It'd be different if they were supposed to care or something, like Al Gore i guess. But Milt would lay it to Al just the same. I dunno

[Jack]

Quote by: phoenix_fire It would annoy me if you said on a regular basis that I did not exist. It would annoy your loved ones even more if you regularly denied their existence. What makes you think it wouldn't bother God?

I'd say because while I can believe those other people exist, there's no reason for me to suppose god does. I quit believing and Santa and still got presents at Xmas. My disbelief didn't bother him, it would appear.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Chancellor How many other places where people gather socially do likewise?

I know it's an uncomfortable subject to have thrown in your fce, but try to resist the urge to get me to change the subject, OK?

Quote by: Chancellor Do they really consume "vast amounts"? Do they really heat/cool empty buildings? What about all these damned skyscrapers that have the heat/cooling and lights on over the weekend when the buildings are practically empty?

I believe they do consume vast amounst of energy. The bulk of the huge mega-churches in our area are ancient relics of times past, and it's common sense that old buildings are not energy efficient. There are vast numbers of these building spead across the Midwest.


As for the skyscrapers, I'm right there with you. WTF indeed. These are the people putting out the "conserve energy" propoganda while they ship goods to China to be assembled, and shipped back. WTF indeed!

Quote by: Chancellor This shows you really don't know what the hell you're talking about and I am really sick of all these damned threads intended only to express animus toward religion!

Tough cookies, it's a discussion forum, and I have my axes to grind as well. Don't like it, don't look.

Quote by: Chancellor I don't know of any church that runs heating and air conditioning seven days a week if the building is only used part of one day a week.

Like I said, in Northern Ohio you run the heat, or your pipes explode.

Quote by: Chancellor What He would likely want is for people like you to stop creating threads with the intent of showing your animus toward Him and His Church.

Again you get the tough cookies comment. If He doesn't like it, He can Lump it. Omnicient my ass.

Quote by: Chancellor More of a right than you have to lecture Christians about anything when your lectures are based on wrong information.

And you have proven me wrong where exactly?

Quote by: Chancellor Besides, the only "Christians" I know of that might be lecturing you on your use of resources are liberal ones that have essentially abandoned the core doctrines of the Christian faith (and, thus, have ceased to be Christian). If you have a gripe, take it up with the World Council of Churches!

I try to minimize my contact with the clinically insane.

Quote by: Chancellor Why should religion be more eco-friendly and who are you to dictate to religion what it must do?

Do you see me setting dictates, or mandates? No you don't, you see me observing what is, and asking why? Guilty conscience? It certainly seems like you are taking the attack personally, yet, I don't see a single instance where I typed in Chancellor, or made a specific reference to your church.


As I articulated to Helio abve, this was a question of why the churches spend their resources as they do, and what ramifications we can expect from these actions gown the line. ( If you believe in man made global warming, or peak oil. )

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Isherwood If it offends someone's deity to have questions asked and skepticism expressed, that deity has too thin a skin and ought to find another line of work. If there was a god, I can't imagine him/her/it being bothered by nonbelievers.

Quite the contrary, the Christian God is a jealous, vindictive God. ( Almost makes one wonder if they're being duped by a "lesser God".)

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: phoenix_fire There are countless organizations and individuals (aka the vast majority of, well, everyone) who do not utilize green practices. What makes MB single out Christians, I wonder?

Partly because it was a casual observation, but also because I knew it would irritate a certain unnamed member here, and also there is the added bonus of tickling my general distaste for organized religion bone. ( Which is connected to the common sense bone )

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Isherwood I'd say because while I can believe those other people exist, there's no reason for me to suppose god does. I quit believing and Santa and still got presents at Xmas. My disbelief didn't bother him, it would appear.

That proves nothing.

phoenix: Saying you don't believe in ________ would irritate ________.
ish: I don't believe in _______. *proof!*

You could frankly believe that I'm not a real person. Perhaps I'm a particularly near-sentient computer programmed to post relevant responses based on an intricate and intuitive algorithm: a debate bot. I'm not gonna drive to Cali just to prove that I'm not. You may think I'm not annoyed. Maybe I have my own reasons for not saying anything. But I can guarantee you that if you said "shut up: what you post doesn't matter because you don't exist" every time I made an argument, it would definitely annoy me.