What's the point of smoking?

[Anmon]

It was good to strike a match off your mates head and look tough I guess, I quit years ago.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe I'd agree that extra oxygen probably would help, but not sure it would be able to totally flush out all the toxins. I've always felt extra oxygen would be important for smokers. Still would make sense to quit smoking if you could. There's no real good reason for smoking outside of it being a bad habit. Doubt they lived much past 30 if they made it that far. Infant mortality had to be real high. Living has always been stressful just in different ways. Having enough to eat has to be super stressful. If smoking had some real redeeming qualities I could see wanting to drop the issue, but it's really a crappy habit that serves no useful purpose. It stinks, and it's dirty. That's about it.

Again, the low trace amounts in tobacco smoke (which I have already domonstrate here) is not enough to worrry about, the reduction in the oxygen levels in our air and in our blood system directly effects our health and our life span. If we add the lack of oxygen due in large part to the clearing of rain forests and lumbering activities, and the paveing over of nature with parking lots and other man-made covers, along with the tons of oil based gasoline polution which is massive nowadays, we got troubles. Blaming smokers of tobacco products for all this is down right stupid. (not suggesting that debaters are stupid, just the "ideas" which motivate the anti-smoking agenda).

The idea smoking is dirty or if it stinks is a matter of opinion but none the less the smell and the ashes do not represent a health problem, that would fall under the topic of discrimination. You have a right to gripe about the smell if you wish, but that is not a reason to promote false claims about it being unhealthy. Some people love the smell of pipe smoke because it reminds them of their dear old grandfather, it all depends on your mental conditioning towards different smells. A man might like the smell of oil because they love working on cars, while women might prefer the smell of flowers or food cooking on the stove. A matter of personal conditioning.
A past experience could influence you, if your house caught on fire you might link that after smell to something you found distrubing and then transfer that to the smell of cigarettes and ash. Etc. You might link he smell of smoke with the smell of death due to some tramatic experience where some person or animal was killed in a fire. So on and so forth - but that is not proof that smoking is deadly as it amounts only a form of phychological training.

Other factors no doubt came into play which could play a role in how long a person lived in prehistoric times, but air quality would not be one of those factors, they could have lived much longer then people nowadays if those other factors could have been overcome. Some very old writings suggested that biblical people lived to be as much as 300 years old, as is the case in other primitive mythologies, fossil research would support that such a theology has some elemient of truth in it.

Stress can be good for you if you respond correctly to it. If you stress your body by lifting weights you get a stronger body, I am not blaming stress at all, I am saying that the problem is "how we react to stress" will make the difference between becoming stronger or weaker, between mental evolution or depressed evolution, between good health or poor health.

In modern times we are confronted with stress that is not even natural in the animal world, all the little things people say and do to upset you or your ego, that sort of stress must be delt with properly via clamness and fore-knowledge, not with resentment, anger, or fear. Because such stress is not natural and cannot be delt with via a natural reaction such as you might use to defend your self form a animal preditor. Not knowing how to deal with everyday stress such as that is what is behind most of our internal health problems.

You cannot confuse natural stress and a natural reaction to the un-natural stress of modern times and still comprehend my explanations.

Not having enough to eat would simply encourage a prehistoric being to pursue more sources of food or to go hunting, to adopt new ways to get food. In our modern times our options are mostly limited to getting a job or to get enough money to buy food at a store, or to own property for farming or whatnot, which can subject us to a need to paying property taxes, selling some of our food to pay off a mortgage or the loan to buy seeds, etc. Trying to compare primitive times to our modern culture is not a good way to compare things. A whole different set of stress factors have been put into place. Our failure to adopt to those new stress factors is directly linked to the rise in certian diseases within our cultures. In primitive times a tribe could just migrate form an area with low food supplies to another area where food is more abundant, needless to say in modern times such migration and "immigration" is controlled by governments and fenses, and other policies that seperate poverty form wealth. This is a whole new ballgame with new rules, and new methods of adaptation are so demanded because the goal posts were moved.

More later...

[gela]

I was not presenting a theory, I was speaking about what is really happening, how our system operates. You are still demanding that satistical evidence via epidemology research be used as the the gold standard and I still do not agree that this is the way which will provide a true understanding about the realities that we are dealing with.

Odd how you are so quick to accept your theory is proven; while you have such high standards for smoking to be proven.

Your theory was unscientific; and completely unproven.

Just because you feel like you have a force within you, that doesn't make it the truth. Your using medieviel reasoning. It sounds like witchcraft.

I am done here. You are completely unreasonable, and borderline ridiculous. You are outright rejecting reason and logic.

[Darebirth]

What I have seen from my own family members and even schoolmates is that people will start in high school or early college because they hear that it is supposed to releive stress, help them lose weight, or it is just the COOL thing to do.

After smoking for so long, they simply don't have the will power to stop, and they end up like my father, a 50 year-old man who has been smoking since the age of 17.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Technosoul Again, the low trace amounts in tobacco smoke (which I have already domonstrate here) is not enough to worrry about, the reduction in the oxygen levels in our air and in our blood system directly effects our health and our life span. If we add the lack of oxygen due in large part to the clearing of rain forests and lumbering activities, and the paveing over of nature with parking lots and other man-made covers, along with the tons of oil based gasoline polution which is massive nowadays, we got troubles. Blaming smokers of tobacco products for all this is down right stupid. (not suggesting that debaters are stupid, just the "ideas" which motivate the anti-smoking agenda).

You're saying the other pollutants and stress are what is actually causing the smokers to get lung cancer at a higher rate than their non-smoking counterparts.

I found this to be a good article on the topic. Really read it, and then investigate what it says, then come back and dispute it.

What's In a Cigarette, 599 Ingredients in a Cigarette

According to this article, it's not trace amounts of poisons in cigarettes, and cigarettes are a pollutant to everyone, not just the smoker. I believe it. If anything the government has been too easy on cigarette manufacturers.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: gela Odd how you are so quick to accept your theory is proven; while you have such high standards for smoking to be proven. Your theory was unscientific; and completely unproven. Just because you feel like you have a force within you, that doesn't make it the truth. Your using medieviel reasoning. It sounds like witchcraft. I am done here. You are completely unreasonable, and borderline ridiculous. You are outright rejecting reason and logic.

So, the anti-smoking movement is still on a witch hunt like they were in medieviel times.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe You're saying the other pollutants and stress are what is actually causing the smokers to get lung cancer at a higher rate than their non-smoking counterparts. I found this to be a good article on the topic. Really read it, and then investigate what it says, then come back and dispute it. What's In a Cigarette, 599 Ingredients in a Cigarette According to this article, it's not trace amounts of poisons in cigarettes, and cigarettes are a pollutant to everyone, not just the smoker. I believe it. If anything the government has been too easy on cigarette manufacturers.

The web page was of course bias in the fact they want you to buy their chewing gum to stop smoking.

They only mentioned the trace amonot of one chemical that is found in cigarette smoke. 5 points of one billion. Like I said, nearly an undectable amount and known about to governmental regulators who set the standards for what percentage is concidered safe or not. That amount is well below the trace amounts allowed by governmental standards (the ariticle failed to note what that standard does allow for - being they are bias and do not want you to know all the facts).

They only said that 5 of the chemicals were viewed as a possible cause of cancer but they did not provide details about trace amounts or if those amounts were higher then the safety standards set by governmental regulators of polution. The secret stuff others worried about turned out to be flavorings used in candy products.

The majority of the scary information is based on guess work that is totally impossible for them to even confirm realistically. They added up all the numbers of all smokers to determine how many tons of tar they all consume over a years time. Based on an idea that each smoker would take puff after puff on each cigarette consumed through-out that year, using up the total cigarette without wasting any of it.

That nonsense is totally non-scientific and does not even meet the benchmarks for junk science let alone real science. But it might scare some people into buying a few packs of the nicotine gum they are promoting.

They basially created their own facts which in truth do not even exsist.

I said that stress is the main cause of disease, as well as micro life forms (germs). As well as some pollutants such as coal dust, etc.

I am agnostic about fossil fuel or other such pollutants being a cause unless one is already out-of-balance due to stress. I have not seen any reports that a lot of animals, birds, or even household pets, are suffering from a high rate of cancer or they they are all having pre-mature heart attacks. Which should be the case if air-quality is doing that in humans.

The reason why shamans introduced smoking is because that is the fastest way to get medicene into the system or to the brain. Where as digesting it as a food would take much longer and would have less of an impact. That is why medical pot is being promoted over pills containing the same chemicals.

Nicotine is a medicene used to calm down the nervious system when that system is over stemulated by stress. That is what they used it for, not to look cool and what-have-you. It might be possible to use that method someday to introduce other medical drugs into the body.

[Kuldeep]

I never started smoking, because as a small kid I was wondering as to why do people smoke !!! My childish brain calculated after looking at smoking person as to what/where is the Gain...smoke is taken in and then thrown out...what is the gain !!!

That simple logic of my childhood never allowed me to start smoking. I am a fully free person as regards smoking.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Technosoul The web page was of course bias in the fact they want you to buy their chewing gum to stop smoking.

The writer's of the articles are experts. KH Ginzel has studied cigarettes for 4 decades. The site did have ads, but the articles are legitimate from what I can tell.

http://whyquit.com/whyquit/Ginzel.html

They only mentioned the trace amonot of one chemical that is found in cigarette smoke. 5 points of one billion. Like I said, nearly an undectable amount and known about to governmental regulators who set the standards for what percentage is concidered safe or not. That amount is well below the trace amounts allowed by governmental standards (the ariticle failed to note what that standard does allow for - being they are bias and do not want you to know all the facts).

According to what I read sitting in a car filled with cigarette smoke is worse for a person than the pollution in the Holland Tunnel.

The majority of the scary information is based on guess work that is totally impossible for them to even confirm realistically.

Not guesswork, years and years of research and study. You are the one making up what you think and promoting it as legitimate when in fact the research which is ongoing says otherwise.

They added up all the numbers of all smokers to determine how many tons of tar they all consume over a years time. Based on an idea that each smoker would take puff after puff on each cigarette consumed through-out that year, using up the total cigarette without wasting any of it.

So, it's the worst case scenario, it still is factual. Some people smoke in areas that are full of smoke like bars and in a closed in car. The pollution is very high and concentrated in these type areas, but even not, the pollution standards for clean air are stricter for factories than for smokers. This is why so many cities and states are going smoke-free.

That nonsense is totally non-scientific and does not even meet the benchmarks for junk science let alone real science. But it might scare some people into buying a few packs of the nicotine gum they are promoting.

If you read some of the articles from Ginzel he doesn't think the nicotine substitutes are good, in fact, they are harmful, and they don't work that well.

I said that stress is the main cause of disease, as well as micro life forms (germs). As well as some pollutants such as coal dust, etc.

I said stress has always been around and it's always been high. No doubt stress does come into play for some illnesses, but cigarettes are a known contributor to cancer, and cigarettes actually cause stress. They are a stimulant. They aren't good for you.

I am agnostic about fossil fuel or other such pollutants being a cause unless one is already out-of-balance due to stress. I have not seen any reports that a lot of animals, birds, or even household pets, are suffering from a high rate of cancer or they they are all having pre-mature heart attacks. Which should be the case if air-quality is doing that in humans.

Actually animals in households with smokers do get more lung cancer and probably cancer in general. I've seen some reports on it. Animals in the wild don't usually have long life spans for a number of reasons, but I'd say most die fairly young just from their circumstances.

The reason why shamans introduced smoking is because that is the fastest way to get medicene into the system or to the brain. Where as digesting it as a food would take much longer and would have less of an impact. That is why medical pot is being promoted over pills containing the same chemicals.

And how did these shamans know this? Guesswork? I'd say so. Medical pot is still debatable as to how effective it is.

Nicotine is a medicene used to calm down the nervious system when that system is over stemulated by stress. That is what they used it for, not to look cool and what-have-you. It might be possible to use that method someday to introduce other medical drugs into the body.

If this were so great it would have already been discovered, this is the 21st century, science has come a long way.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Kuldeep I never started smoking, because as a small kid I was wondering as to why do people smoke !!! My childish brain calculated after looking at smoking person as to what/where is the Gain...smoke is taken in and then thrown out...what is the gain !!! That simple logic of my childhood never allowed me to start smoking. I am a fully free person as regards smoking.

I made the choice to smoke with full knowledge of the cost involved in buying a product.

My freedom as no in any way damaged by smoking, the only ones who might damage my freedom are the control freaks who would ban it.

There is not purpose to watch a silly TV program, it goes in one ear and out the other. But millions of people like to do it anyway, so what is your point?

"those who control your eyes control your mind" - Timothy Leary.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe The writer's of the articles are experts. KH Ginzel has studied cigarettes for 4 decades. The site did have ads, but the articles are legitimate from what I can tell. Why Do You Smoke? According to what I read sitting in a car filled with cigarette smoke is worse for a person than the pollution in the Holland Tunnel. Not guesswork, years and years of research and study. You are the one making up what you think and promoting it as legitimate when in fact the research which is ongoing says otherwise. So, it's the worst case scenario, it still is factual. Some people smoke in areas that are full of smoke like bars and in a closed in car. The pollution is very high and concentrated in these type areas, but even not, the pollution standards for clean air are stricter for factories than for smokers. This is why so many cities and states are going smoke-free. If you read some of the articles from Ginzel he doesn't think the nicotine substitutes are good, in fact, they are harmful, and they don't work that well. I said stress has always been around and it's always been high. No doubt stress does come into play for some illnesses, but cigarettes are a known contributor to cancer, and cigarettes actually cause stress. They are a stimulant. They aren't good for you. Actually animals in households with smokers do get more lung cancer and probably cancer in general. I've seen some reports on it. Animals in the wild don't usually have long life spans for a number of reasons, but I'd say most die fairly young just from their circumstances. And how did these shamans know this? Guesswork? I'd say so. Medical pot is still debatable as to how effective it is. If this were so great it would have already been discovered, this is the 21st century, science has come a long way.

Ginzel has spent 4 decades in leading the anti-smoking movement and is responsible for many of the bans that were put into effect via politics.

He set out to do that and has used whatever studies might favor his bias objective, which objective was totally directed with only one thing in mind, to ban cigarettes and to call it "preventive mediciene". He has retired now of the ideas he suggested in the 1980s are still popular with others who are in the movement to ban tobacco.

No one in their right mind sits in a car full of smoke, we roll down the windows, I have always advocated proper air circulation for smokers, and have apposed "closed environments" through-out this thread. Even the new car smells that are toxic are suspect, so keep the air moving around.

I have already debated the other things you said and so no point in going around in circles about that. Just re-read the postings already made.

Shamanistic knowledge as I presented it has not been overturned by knowledge of the 21st century.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Technosoul I made the choice to smoke with full knowledge of the cost involved in buying a product. .

Oh yes I forget to cost aspect to include in, my post. I further wondered why at all people spent money for smoking which in fact has nothing to gain by. later when I grew I gained the knowledge smoking damages lungs a health concern adding to monetary loss.

My freedom as no in any way damaged by smoking, the only ones who might damage my freedom are the control freaks who would ban it.

By freedom I mean binding of going for smokeing addiction. You would have the stress of cigarrette availability, limit smoking for heath concern and then money involved with no visible gain as explained earlier.

There is not purpose to watch a silly TV program, it goes in one ear and out the other. But millions of people like to do it anyway, so what is your point?

My point is to gain knowledge, whether smoking is doing any good at all to us. Mostly doctors say it harms than negligible benefits.

"those who control your eyes control your mind" - Timothy Leary

If the control is for good reasons, what is wrong in it.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Kuldeep Oh yes I forget to cost aspect to include in, my post. I further wondered why at all people spent money for smoking which in fact has nothing to gain by. later when I grew I gained the knowledge smoking damages lungs a health concern adding to monetary loss. By freedom I mean binding of going for smokeing addiction. You would have the stress of cigarrette availability, limit smoking for heath concern and then money involved with no visible gain as explained earlier. My point is to gain knowledge, whether smoking is doing any good at all to us. Mostly doctors say it harms than negligible benefits. If the control is for good reasons, what is wrong in it.

If you are not interested in smoking or cannot afford it then I have no reason to debate your choice not to smoke. I am not motivated to try to talk you into smoking, nor am I motivated to debate why you do not smoke, that is your own business and yours alone.

Whatever vice you have selected for your self is okay with me. I am not going to debate that my vice is better then your vices.

No one is free and so it is pointless to advocate that also.

[Technosoul]

When the Thunder Beings sent down the lightening and ancient shaman saw that fallen spirit as a gift from the spirit in the sky. Fire, the son the the Most High in whom the Thunder Beings are well pleased, take this gift and use it wisely.

So he saw the fallen light from the sky and thought it landed in a tree, and then thought the light was within the tree, holding sticks form the sacred tree so blessed the shaman learned to bring forth the sparks of that spirit form the wood, and made a campfire.

Behold, our campfire is like Ra, the Sun that is in the heavens, which illuminates the earth by day and the moon by night.

They brought gifts to the campfire, and learned many things in so doing, how to cook things, and from cooking how to make medicenes, and they learned about making pottery, and later how to melt metels, gold and silver.

The campfire was their staff, the fire protected them from the wild animals that roamed the night, it gave them warmth in the cool of the evening, it gave them comfort, and it became the place where all would gather around to tell stories and to plan the events for thier tribes.

The campfire spirit was a teacher, a protector, and comforter, and looking upon her embers flickering in harmoney with our brain waves drew us into the trance mediations that opened the windows of metaphysical concepts, and religion was born of her.

As I smoke my cigarette I look at that tiny campfire at the end which was lighted, and give thanks for that gift from the thunder beings, and the voice in the cloud.

As the smoke enters to induce a state of calmness I reflect on those things of importance, and mediate as the smoke rings rise like prayers into the heavens, smoke signals that communicate to the powers that be, where the eagles gather in the winds on high.

While natives raise their pipes to the sky "there is room for the great spirit in my pipe", and they they touch the pipe to the earth "there is room for mother earth in my pipe", and then they point the pipe to all four directions, "there is room for all the races of mankind in my pipe".

For the pipe is made of red clay for the bowl, of a plant which is the tobacco, and for the fire, and for the air, and the eagle feathers of the pipe are symbols for the Eagle, who is the spirit of the hunt.

And all these things we inhale which are sacred to us, and pass around in a circle to bond our tribe together by our religious ritual.

That we might connect to the Elders and the wisdom of the ages.

For the plant is the flesh of the Lord goddess whom we consume, and smoking brings our attention to our breath, which is the soul of our spiritual life, which we offer up as a burnt offering to the winds who are the messingers of the spirit within, and all around us.

For peace is entrusted to us, for the sake of humanity in these troubling times. That we might open up the mysteries and share them in this pow wow smoke out.

Amen.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Technosoul That we might connect to the Elders and the wisdom of the ages. For the plant is the flesh of the Lord goddess whom we consume, and smoking brings our attention to our breath, which is the soul of our spiritual life, which we offer up as a burnt offering to the winds who are the messingers of the spirit within, and all around us. For peace is entrusted to us, for the sake of humanity in these troubling times. That we might open up the mysteries and share them in this pow wow smoke out. Amen.

Native Americans are now against smoking. Science has taken them over, sorry!

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Technosoul Ginzel has spent 4 decades in leading the anti-smoking movement and is responsible for many of the bans that were put into effect via politics. He set out to do that and has used whatever studies might favor his bias objective, which objective was totally directed with only one thing in mind, to ban cigarettes and to call it "preventive mediciene". He has retired now of the ideas he suggested in the 1980s are still popular with others who are in the movement to ban tobacco. No one in their right mind sits in a car full of smoke, we roll down the windows, I have always advocated proper air circulation for smokers, and have apposed "closed environments" through-out this thread. Even the new car smells that are toxic are suspect, so keep the air moving around. I have already debated the other things you said and so no point in going around in circles about that. Just re-read the postings already made. Shamanistic knowledge as I presented it has not been overturned by knowledge of the 21st century.

Ginzel studied it and this is why he is against it.

People sit and have sat in smoke filled cars all the time. Rolling the window down when it's freezing cold outside isn't going to happen.

I don't think this is necessarily going around in circles.

Shamanistic knowledge has been overturned. A lot of the shaman stuff was making it up as they went along. They'd hit the nail on the head maybe once in a hundred tries and the people would go, "ooh, ahh". Have you ever watched any Mel Brooks movies? That's the real truth.

[Technosoul]

I do not agree, those who converted are no longer shamen nor are they Native Americans relative to their traditions, they would be mainstream just like you are.

I made my case about Ginzill and will stick with it.

[marijuanajake]

Quote by: nerdvincent Why do you smoke? Isn't it a bit stupid? Spending [lots of] money to die slowly? It is a major health hazard (both for thou and the people around thou), so why do they allow tobacco and not salvia divinorum? Come on, tell me!

In Arizona Salvia Divinorum is legal. I quit smoking Tobacco About a month ago. Why I started I don't remember.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Technosoul I do not agree, those who converted are no longer shamen nor are they Native Americans relative to their traditions, they would be mainstream just like you are. I made my case about Ginzill and will stick with it.

And mainstream is usually what? The one's that are right.

http://www.bio-medicine.org/biology-...obacco-2340-1/

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe And mainstream is usually what? The one's that are right. Scientists discover how cigarette smoke causes cancer: Study points to new treatments, saf... ( Everyone has known for decades that ...)

That report in that link did not give the details needed for critical review.

Did they use Hydrogen Peroxide as a solution or did then burn it and then use the smoke from the burning solution to "test" the cell reaction?

How much did they use of the Hydrogen Preoxide solution, did they use too much?

However, the study suggested that the removal of hydrogen peroxide would make cigarette smoke safe. So if you want to ban that additive then that is okay with me.

The odd thing is that this report is the reverse of hundreds of other reports that claim that hydrogen peroxide can cure cancer and other diseases because it adds more oxygen to the blood system.

Hydrogen Peroxide Therapy